X... the comments have nothing to do with Capoiera, which I know very little about, but actually do see as related activity. The nub of the problem relates to 'the kind of people' we'd want to party with.... and a kind of stretch to make things relate to MA. You can say it's unimportant or that I tossed a grenade into an agreeable discussion or that it's a provocative point of view. Choose your preference.
To lighten things up (I hope) and as regards my understanding of cross-training, my favorite story was when I asked my father if I could have some space in the basement to lift weights. He told me to wait there, he'd help me build muscle faster than that. He came back minutes later with a shovel and said...'here, use it dig rocks out of the garden for the stone wall'. We both had a good laugh.
Your questions are good ones but perhaps I should yield and redirect.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited January 19, 2000).]
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
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Tim Ahearn
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Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Bill,
I'm a little late here, but...
You wrote: You may feel comfortable playing basketball for Bobby Knight. But I'd rather play for Pete Gillen of UVa.
This is the aspect that I cherish most about the UVa dojo. We don't take ourselves too seriously. Say what you will 'bout my karate, but I'm better than I would be if I worked out in a dojo that was utterly serious. I, and I'm sure many others, don't thrive in such atmospheres.
- Tim
[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited January 21, 2000).]
I'm a little late here, but...
You wrote: You may feel comfortable playing basketball for Bobby Knight. But I'd rather play for Pete Gillen of UVa.
This is the aspect that I cherish most about the UVa dojo. We don't take ourselves too seriously. Say what you will 'bout my karate, but I'm better than I would be if I worked out in a dojo that was utterly serious. I, and I'm sure many others, don't thrive in such atmospheres.
- Tim
[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited January 21, 2000).]
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
I have to admit some of the latter discussion went right over me for awhile...
I think I take my training pretty seriously but I have fun doing it. If not, I would quit. There was point I did for several years because I was TOO serious and took up running/swimming/biking instead. Didn't like way I was going...
Just me. Life is too short and getting shorter.
david
I think I take my training pretty seriously but I have fun doing it. If not, I would quit. There was point I did for several years because I was TOO serious and took up running/swimming/biking instead. Didn't like way I was going...
Just me. Life is too short and getting shorter.
david
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
david,
Did you say "shorter"?
Couldn't resist. Actually, though, it relates to the topic at hand (or at least, where it's gone to). I can think of very, very few martial artists whose abilities I respect who do not have a "healthy" sense of humor (i.e. 'healthy' in the sense of 'vigorous,' but not necessarily always 'mentally balanced'...). Admittedly, I may not always find humor in things others in the dojo say or do (they of course, all find me immensely amusing - but that's just my kata!) but, as david points out, if it's not fun (on some level) why are you doing it?
In a description I once read of training in Japanese koryu (classical Japanese martial arts), the author pointed out that these are places which alternate between deadly seriousness and lots of joking and laughter. When training in this sort of atmosphere, I suspect that a tremendous 'charge' of psychic energy (no, I'm not talking about chi) builds up because of the danger involved in the practice, that it needs to be discharged somehow. Humor certainly provides a safe way to do so. In my experience, hard training is very often followed by hard partying - which can take whatever form the group chooses. If one wants to suggest that choosing to indulge in this release somehow lessens the abilities of the 'partyers,' fine. But I'm not fightin' them!
In regard to the capoeira - I don't know a whole hell of a lot about it. Nevertheless, david's description fits with what I have seen: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
greg
Did you say "shorter"?
Couldn't resist. Actually, though, it relates to the topic at hand (or at least, where it's gone to). I can think of very, very few martial artists whose abilities I respect who do not have a "healthy" sense of humor (i.e. 'healthy' in the sense of 'vigorous,' but not necessarily always 'mentally balanced'...). Admittedly, I may not always find humor in things others in the dojo say or do (they of course, all find me immensely amusing - but that's just my kata!) but, as david points out, if it's not fun (on some level) why are you doing it?
In a description I once read of training in Japanese koryu (classical Japanese martial arts), the author pointed out that these are places which alternate between deadly seriousness and lots of joking and laughter. When training in this sort of atmosphere, I suspect that a tremendous 'charge' of psychic energy (no, I'm not talking about chi) builds up because of the danger involved in the practice, that it needs to be discharged somehow. Humor certainly provides a safe way to do so. In my experience, hard training is very often followed by hard partying - which can take whatever form the group chooses. If one wants to suggest that choosing to indulge in this release somehow lessens the abilities of the 'partyers,' fine. But I'm not fightin' them!
In regard to the capoeira - I don't know a whole hell of a lot about it. Nevertheless, david's description fits with what I have seen: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
'Flowing' with a fast kick to your head and returning one of your own... if that's not developing martial ability, then I suppose I'm missing the point!Imagine being in the middle with your partner, both of you are rocking back and forth with the beat. The partner lashes a round type kick. You flow and spin and lash out one of yours. He flows and lashes out another. You flow again but this this time rock away and then back with a kick in the opposite direction. This time the partner flows the other way and spins with another kick.
greg
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Greg,
DAMN IT! I supposed to be 6'3" in these here forums. And, I always will be in my mind's eyes.
david
DAMN IT! I supposed to be 6'3" in these here forums. And, I always will be in my mind's eyes.
david
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
david,
you're not 6'3"? Then how the hell have you been kicking me in the head all these years?
greg
you're not 6'3"? Then how the hell have you been kicking me in the head all these years?
greg
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Thank you Tim, Dr X, David and Greg. Phil
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Great disscussion! Although Capoeira is generally regarded by most Ma's as an exhibition sport, I spent 15 months in Brazil as an exchange student and can tell you that I met a lot a Capoeistras that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole! In fact, one night I saw a Capoeistra get in a fight with a high-ranking black belt from the Carlson Gracie school. The Capoeistra knocked him flat-out with a high, acrobatic kick to the back of the head! I will say that I haven't been exactly impressed with what Capoeira I've seen in the states though. But trust me, there are some bad-asses in Brazil. Marco Ruas, the UFC 7 champion, trained in Capoeira(as he did in BJJ, Luta Livre, TKD, Judo, Mauy Thai, Boxing.)
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
In "Choke", a documentary of a Japanese NHB tournament, I saw one of the Gracies doing what looked alot like a "jinga" which I have been told is the basic/starting step to a capoeira game. Also an increbible seated DEEP breathing meditation in a shrine, and the "go to the top of that mountain, put a snorkel in your mouth and stand in the near freezing rapids with your head underwater until your brain freezes" meditation. Do I need to tell you that he won the tournament? 
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sean
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sean
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Brat,
Did you see them train? I am really curious about that because in Cacoy Hernandez's book, Balisong: Iron Butterfly, he talked about meeting a Capoeira proponent he fought along side with against a gang. Cacoy was very impressed with the demonstrated fighting ability of this man. But, when he went to a training session, it was done pretty much as I experienced in a limited way with the bunch I met.
david
Did you see them train? I am really curious about that because in Cacoy Hernandez's book, Balisong: Iron Butterfly, he talked about meeting a Capoeira proponent he fought along side with against a gang. Cacoy was very impressed with the demonstrated fighting ability of this man. But, when he went to a training session, it was done pretty much as I experienced in a limited way with the bunch I met.
david
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Jake Steinmann
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Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
From the few practioners of it that I've met, it seems like it could be devasatingly effective...if you're very good at it.
Brat...I've been told that capoerista's sometimes train with razor blades, either in their hands or on their feet. Did you see anything of this kind?
Train Harder! More Chi!
Jake Steinmann
Brat...I've been told that capoerista's sometimes train with razor blades, either in their hands or on their feet. Did you see anything of this kind?
Train Harder! More Chi!
Jake Steinmann
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
David, I knew a lot of people who practiced Capoeira(it's the national MA), there is a difference though. I did a little Capoeira while I was there, though not nearly enough to consider myself an authority of any kind.
I do know that if you go to Brazil with the intent of studying Capoeira, that if your goal is combat-you should avoid the big conglomerate places. Instead, find some gnarly looking guys practicing down by the beach. These guys do what is reffered to as Capoeira de Ruas-or street Capoeira. The goal is combat oriented as was the original intention of the style.(Also, practising on those NUDE beaches requires lots of concentration!!) In fact the government once banned the practice of Capoeira out of fear, because it was considered a very lethal combative method. In street Capoeira the goal is to not get hit, but if you don't watch your timing and technique-you will. It kind of operates like a trial-and -error training. Two Caroeira masters can "dance" for hours on end without hitting each other. Its not because they're not trying, its because they are that good.
Understanding Capoeira is kind of like a cultural thing. We in the west don't always understand the utility of forms practice although in the countries that originally developed the arts, it was the foundation of the style. We look at the Capoeistras and say something like "they never make contact, so they wouldn't know what to do in a real fight ," but that is not so either. We are trying to evaluate a totally alien form of combat by our own limited, cultural framework.
In the United States, Capoeira has been embraced totally on a cultural level and as far as I can tell Street Capoeira has not made it here. In other words, I seriously doubt that you could get a whole lot out of learning Capoeira anywhere here in America beyond the dancing aspect. To learn Street Capoeira you would have to go to Brazil.
I do know that if you go to Brazil with the intent of studying Capoeira, that if your goal is combat-you should avoid the big conglomerate places. Instead, find some gnarly looking guys practicing down by the beach. These guys do what is reffered to as Capoeira de Ruas-or street Capoeira. The goal is combat oriented as was the original intention of the style.(Also, practising on those NUDE beaches requires lots of concentration!!) In fact the government once banned the practice of Capoeira out of fear, because it was considered a very lethal combative method. In street Capoeira the goal is to not get hit, but if you don't watch your timing and technique-you will. It kind of operates like a trial-and -error training. Two Caroeira masters can "dance" for hours on end without hitting each other. Its not because they're not trying, its because they are that good.
Understanding Capoeira is kind of like a cultural thing. We in the west don't always understand the utility of forms practice although in the countries that originally developed the arts, it was the foundation of the style. We look at the Capoeistras and say something like "they never make contact, so they wouldn't know what to do in a real fight ," but that is not so either. We are trying to evaluate a totally alien form of combat by our own limited, cultural framework.
In the United States, Capoeira has been embraced totally on a cultural level and as far as I can tell Street Capoeira has not made it here. In other words, I seriously doubt that you could get a whole lot out of learning Capoeira anywhere here in America beyond the dancing aspect. To learn Street Capoeira you would have to go to Brazil.
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Brat,
Thanks for the reply. I am not that deep to get into a "cultural" analysis. I am just wondering what kind of training takes place. If there is a "street version", how is that version different from the mass "dance" version.
J.D. Always comes back to the individual. I've met a quite a few talented people and fighters from different arts. I met more so the mediocre and the delusional, unfortunately...
david
Thanks for the reply. I am not that deep to get into a "cultural" analysis. I am just wondering what kind of training takes place. If there is a "street version", how is that version different from the mass "dance" version.
J.D. Always comes back to the individual. I've met a quite a few talented people and fighters from different arts. I met more so the mediocre and the delusional, unfortunately...
david
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
David, to sum it all up-Capoeira is the art of NOT getting hit. There are no blocks in Capoeira. The main principle is to avoid the opponents oncoming blow while countering with your own. This is done in continuous movement-a Capoeistra will never stop moving. The training is pretty much the same for any style of Capoeira(yes there are substyles) and the main difference I have found between Street Capoeira and the run of the mill dance stuff, is that the streeters try to engage in combat and hit their opponents while in the other Roda contact is forbidden.
I saw many Capoeistras engage each other, but with the exception of the instance I previously discussed involving the BJJ guy, I have never wittnessed mixed sparring with other stylists. I did hear lots of stories though including one(I can't substantiate it)about Rorion Gracie several years earlier getting busted up pretty bad when he got into a fight with a tough local Capoeistra.
Capoeira is pretty much all circular movement of the whole body, which builds momentum and adds to the power of the attacks. The power built by velocity is kept constant by movement. For every attack in Capoeira there is an avoidance tactic and any number of retaliatory measures at the disposal of the practitioner which, in turn will assumingly be avoided by his opponent. This kind of practice builds extremely well-honed timing. Ive found timing to be a weak and often overlooked facet of combat by the great majority of martial artists including myself. The Capoeistras have got it taped. Movement and timing was what Muhammed Ali used to rack up wins against his contenders(a departure from the previous greats who relied solely on power punching.)
I saw many Capoeistras engage each other, but with the exception of the instance I previously discussed involving the BJJ guy, I have never wittnessed mixed sparring with other stylists. I did hear lots of stories though including one(I can't substantiate it)about Rorion Gracie several years earlier getting busted up pretty bad when he got into a fight with a tough local Capoeistra.
Capoeira is pretty much all circular movement of the whole body, which builds momentum and adds to the power of the attacks. The power built by velocity is kept constant by movement. For every attack in Capoeira there is an avoidance tactic and any number of retaliatory measures at the disposal of the practitioner which, in turn will assumingly be avoided by his opponent. This kind of practice builds extremely well-honed timing. Ive found timing to be a weak and often overlooked facet of combat by the great majority of martial artists including myself. The Capoeistras have got it taped. Movement and timing was what Muhammed Ali used to rack up wins against his contenders(a departure from the previous greats who relied solely on power punching.)
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Jake, I never wittnessed any of the razorblade stuff that you made refference to although in Brazil the stories of how the old boys used to train are volumous. Getting hit by an accomplished Capoeistra is painful enough. I remembered getting tagged in the stomach and thinking that it was the most painful blow I had ever taken. And Ive taken a few.
