Instructors- Who's dusting you off ?

[Gary Santaniello]

Having had an interesting conversation today with a friend whom is also an instuctor, the question came up as to, do all instructors who have schools also continue to study in a class with a senior (their sensei) ?

I believe that "most" due. Although my comment was, many work regular jobs and teach nights leaving them "no time"
to train. However, i tend to agree that all instructors regardless of rank, time, or ability, tend to need some instruction themselves from their sensei, whomever that may be, as to continue learning and being critiqued and "dusted off" of bad habits.

I realize that it is most difficult for some and impossible for others, so it seems. But for the sake of "learning" and improving ones art, should we not all need to partake in some form of continued study with someone senior to us ? Being associated is one thing, working out and being corrected is another. Whether we go to our seniors or have them come to us occassionaly for some personalized attention, without that we can become comfortable with our own imperfectons and possibly teach some bad habits unknown to ourselves.

We as instructors must make the effort to somehow get in front of our sensei's (even randomly) as part of our trainning and requirements towards our next rank.

No disrespect intended towards anyone. However, we always correct others as we see their mistakes. The question we must ask ourselves is, who is correcting us ?

Respectfully,




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Gary S.

[BILLY B]

Gary,

I agree. Some don't have instructors/seniors available to them though. I have often wondered how it must have been for people like James Thompson and GEM and the bevy of others who trained on Okinawa before the style was really established elsewhere. It must have been a challenge to return home and continue their training on their own, and teach! I am very thankfull that they stuck it out! We owe them much gratitude.

Politics have also aleinated some from their teachers, and that is sad. Just pondering this makes me feel very lucky to belong to a dojo full of serious martial artists who challenge my skills and help me improve. My teacher is the one responsible for creating this environment - good buisiness management, leadership, long hours.... I'm lucky.

Sorry, I guess I got off topic. Good issue!

[david]

I agree that one should be "dusted off" and tested. Standing in front of an senior instructor is not the only way... Stand yourself in front of somebody different from the usual training partners and spar. Try you techniques out in real time. Rubber to the road.

david

[Bill Glasheen]

Gary

You make a good point. There are many who are guilty of going off on their own teaching (even within the dojo of their own instructor) without actually working on their own karate with their senior(s). For the less disciplined among us (the vast majority), this can lead to form degredation and style corruption.

There are a few issues here though. For one, my first Uechi instructor is dead. Jim Thompson's first Uechi instructor is dead. While I do have others (George) that I work with (in our own peculiar way), you do get to a point where the buck stops with you. Then what? Yes, ultimately if you stick it out long enough, you become the final authority in your line.

So....time to get together with others and exchange ideas. Time to host other instructors of the same style in your dojo, or go to camps. Time to meet some dweeb from the Northwest to hear what his Baltic senior senior has to say about life, partying, and the pursuit of sanchin.

But why stop there? Dare I suggest that we work out with folks from other styles? Dare I say we try their techniques and see if they fit within the framework of our kata? Dare I say we choreograph our own kumite and specialize in some tangential martial pursuit? Who knows...there's a great one born every generation. Why freeze the creative process?

But...I get carried away.

- Bill

[maurice richard libby]

My first Karate instructor (stop me if you've heard this one) left his teacher when he got his nidan. He started his own school, and essentially isolated himself from the rest of the Martial Arts community.

He soon had about 150-200 students in a couple of venues. He was merciless with his criticism, but did not /would not train with anyone else. He also acted like a stereotypical "Samurai", and deference to seniors was extreme. (The irony of the situation did not go unnoticed).

Over the years, his technique deteriorated to the point that it was quite embarrassing to watch. Of course, most of his students did not know this because he stringly discouraged them from associating with any other Martial Artists, or going to seminars, etc.

Even his wife, who was marginally lower in rank when they split from thier first sensei, would not criticize his technique.

At the same time I left the dojo, he lost about 6 of his 30 yudansha, all of whom were too embarrassed to continue (some even went to uechi Ryu).

What's the point? Mostly that we all need to have someone to tell us when we **** up. A sensei, a sempai, even a candid junior. Ego can be a really bad master.

maurice

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large

[Gary Santaniello]

David,

I agree that working out with different patrners does help one to test their abilities in regards to sparring. I myself work out with several dfferent people of different dojo's where as i have "opportunity" to do so that others may not.

However, that alone will not suffice in the "correction" department as it takes a "observational" point of veiw to see the incorrect "form" in ones kata, positioning and other aspects of ones trainning. Being a "great" fighter is just that. It does not indicate ones abilty to understand the system in "totality".

No disrespect intended as i know your abilty, but as many will agree, there is a danger of degenerating quality of the art without some guidence.

Bill G.

You make a very good point. At same level certain individuals rise to the top of the ranks. Making them the "authority" so to speak. But even they must continue to work out with others. Several individuals sit at the highest of Ranks. I am not suggesting that "they" need correcting, but even they of whom i know personally "work out" with others around them.

Possibly i may be suggesting that instructors, should consider that they also need correcting to. Myself included. My prior conversation with an instructor of 6th dan proposed a legitimate question. Should all of us be required to be "dusted off" (looked at) by our seniors as to insure our own learning process? I think so. Also, should it be required i obtaining higher rank ? I also feel so.


Bill G.

Dare i suggest etc. etc. you state. Anything that any of us desire to persue that may help us become a better martial artist can not hurt. However, i would not suggest to lower ranks that they venture into cross trainning to soon. Let them get comfortable with a foundation, Uechiryu, or whatever, and continue to
develop the perfection of it.

We must maintain certain "guidlines" or format of our system. Then as we advance, "variations" i feel come into play.

Maurice,

Good example. A "Nidan" breaks away and goes into teaching. He has many followers into the hundreds. He has no sensei to correct him. His form disinegrates as does his students. This is where the Standards of rank become affected.

We must all be careful here even at senior ranks. Senior, senior, senior ?
That may be another story, but even the ones i know, "work out" !

Respectfully,

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Gary S.

[Bill Stockey]

If one goes back and checks the histories of many of the old masters, they trained for maybe 10-20 years with a teacher and then went on their own. Their improvement was a function of their continual training and working hard. At some point it falls to the person to work hard to improve their own skills. My old instructor once told me as I was moving " Now you find the true teacher within" These were the best words he ever spoke to me

[Gary Santaniello]

Bill S.

"At some point it falls to the person to work hard to improve their own skills."

This is true. However, it should always be that way at any level of ones training. "A path upon no limitation." Always striving for perfection within oneself.

"Many went out on their own after 10-20yrs. of training." The statement made to you "Now you find the true teacher within" i believe had significant meaning to it. Although, i don't believe the intent was that you no longer needed any instruction or critiquing from anyone.

10 years ? Back when i started, that made a good "Nidan" maybe a "Sandan". With all respect, i sit with 25 years and the rank of Godan. I am still learning much from others around me. The past couple of years have been very "enlightening" as to the depths of the understanding i have grasped.

Being around 6th,7th 8th and 9th dans does give some different perspectives on things other than from ones own view or understanding.

Even some 3rd and 4th dans have shared some valuable opinions from whom they were taught by.

There is always more knowledge to be gained from others. Possibly my geographical location presents opportunity that others do not have. For there are many talented and skilled instructors in the New England Area of the Uechi-Ryu system.

I am thankful for that !

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Gary S.

[Bill Stockey]

However, look at many items kanbun uechi studied how long under his instructor 10 years. there doesnt seem to be any record of his studing with anyone else. The Okinawan tradition is full of similar stories. At some point one must make the art his/her own.

[Allen M.]

Today, we are surrounded by many martial arts and martial artists, and, for the multitude of martial artists (not all), it doesn't make sense to remain isolated unless the wish to do so exists, there no desire to learn any new stuff, saturation of knowledge and ability exists, or just either don't want to or don't provide the time to.

100 years ago people lived much different than the way they do today, thought differently, and there were far fewer people around. Who knows what Uechi Kanbun did in his spare time?

I feel that, if the opportunity presents itself to train with other people -- peers or senseis -- on a regular basis, even informally, at minimum it will provide a system of checks and balances and will keep the batteries charged.

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Allen, New website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/

[Bill Stockey]

Please dont get me wrong. I train with many
other teachers. I look for good folks but they are folks who help flesh out the base system that i was bought up with.

[david]

Gary S,

I don't disagree with standing in front of an instructor to get dusted off. I merely mentioned another way to test oneself. Maurice's example is a good illustration of what can happen when one doesn't seek opportunities outside of one's own dojo to train, learn and test oneself.

>>No disrespect intended as i know your abilty, but as many will agree, there is a danger of degenerating quality of the art without some guidence.<<

To a certain degree, this depends on one's perspective of whether an art is an end or a means to another end; whether the art is immutable or adaptable. I think in more modern practices of Japanese (or heavily Japanese influenced) arts there is greater emphasis on patterning after a senior who claims to pattern after his senior and so and so on. Finally, the senior, senior, senior/founder is gloried/mystified as having perfected his art through actual self-defense or combat. The founder is perceived as the immutable source, the fountainhead of perfect combat techniques. Alot of this has to do with Confucian influences. And the Japanese took this influence even further than the Chinese in emphasis, I think.

Despite the claims of my "art is the same as "so and so's art," the fact is the art has often change over time. But the claim to so and so's art continues because of cultural influence and because very few have opportunity or need to test their arts in actual combat. The patterning and legacy gives some legitimacy to claims of "combat effectiveness" by the modern practitioner.

If you step back from modern times of Japanese arts, meaning before 1700 or so, you'll find enough examples of folks moving on from their original teachers, seeking out opportunities to test themselves and, yes, to even train with others. They needed to test and perfect their arts not to get legitimacy but to survive. Survival was legitimacy. And the good ones ended up developing their own following/schools. Musashi was a perfect example. By the time he was thirty, he had killed 60 men and solidified what was to become his Niten Ichi Ryu style (two sword style). He retired to pursue the art of the brush. Just before his death, he completed his Book of Five Rings. And at the end of each major section of his book, Musashi admonished to his readers to "study this well" by which he meant practice AND test it out. I doubt very people would say Musashi degraded the art he was taught. (Actually, Musashi first fought in war at the young age of 16. I found little regarding his "lineage" but I doubt there was much of one given the young age from which he proceeded to "test" himself.)

Stepping outside of the Japanese martial culture, one can look to the Filipino martial arts which is replete with many modern examples of folks who split early from their teachers to test their arts and to modify and to develop their own. The Filipinos seem to care less about "patterning" and "legitimacy" based on so and so. Rather, legitimacy is based on the person's ability to use his art in real combat. Legitimacy is first and foremost a function of having done "it." I've heard it said that one can approach some Filipino masters and say, "I want to become a master of your system." The master will say, "Sure, I train you for X time (for X $$) and will then certify you as a master." The master doesn't give a give a damn because the "master wannabe" is likely going to be tested by someone for real, even more so if he wants to claim "mastery." No skin of the master's nose and his pockets are richer for it. More likely a chunk of flesh, or worse, from the wannabe.

So, what's the point? Well, I know you, Gary, and I don't disagree. But I thought it was worthwhile to mention other forms of testing besides standing in front of senior/senior to do kata or prearranged kumite because some of the newer folks may believe that's all it takes. One should do that but testing and dusting off require more than that.

david

[Gary Santaniello]

David,

You make some very legitimate points in your references. Your veiws are respected as well as your abilities.

I would agree that many years ago the pursuit of any art form was strickly for "survival" as life and death was a way of life! As we know a true "Warrior" was ready to die on any given day. Was the strive for perfection of any one particular style, system or art form a concern ? Most likely not.

Musashi is one good example as you post.
As you mentioned, going out and "testing" ones abilities in those days was a matter of surviving. Could it be that those who survived and lived to be legendary were regarded as true masters and all others simply perished?

Also we may ask, how much "warrior spirit" with intent to survive and willingness to die, made the real difference in the end ? We speak much of "mind set" and intimidation in confrontation. Certainly the "mind set" was much different in those days. As was the training.

Today many of us look at the strive of perfection as a personal goal. We must keep a "format" of a system and follow guidlines of how particular elements of it are performed. That is the only way styles will have their own identity.

Being a "Ronin" (if i may) is not a bad thing either for those who want to strickly develop "fighting" abilty. Crosstraining is great to help understand how things tie into eachother, or differ from.

I also understand that ones ability to perform kata and kumite in a respectable "format", and that "rank" in particular does not neccessarily indicate ones ability to fight or survive in a "real" life threatening situation. But hopefully it will help those who never really mix it up!

We could go on but, it's late!

Respectfully,



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Gary S.

[david]

Gary,

>>Today many of us look at the strive of perfection as a personal goal. <<

Same goal, different approach. Perfection can't be achieved, but the trying is fun and a heck of a ride.

respectfully,

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited March 19, 2000).]