I am going to leave names out of this. The names aren't important; the issue is.
What would you do if... Most of us think we know. Imagine how difficult it is as a child.
This child (that I know well and is my karate student) was playing on the playground while attending classes at a respectable private school. One generally expects mischief to be pretty innocent in such a setting - particularly for 6 and 7-year-olds. But that isn't always the case. It's not clear whether or not there was any provoking incident; it certainly wasn't indicated when I heard the story told. But as I understand it, another 7-year-old came up to this child from behind and stuck his hand down the kid’s pants (in the rear). I did hear a version indirectly about exactly what it was like to have a finger down there. It was done so fast that the child didn't see it coming, and couldn't respond before it was over. It was done in front of 4 other boys who witnessed the insult. It was supposed to be a prank of a sort, I guess. I wouldn't know, as I cannot understand the behavior. Some of the kids laughed; not all of the kids did.
Let me be clear here. Most guys who made it through junior high know what it is like to be pants (have one's drawers dropped) or get a wedgie (have one's drawers raised so that the seam becomes one with your rear anatomy). I understand there's another prank that goes beyond the wedgie, where one attempts to get the pants pulled up over top of the kid's head. I'm not sure if it has a name, but it's been done before. Personally I've never had a wedgie or the super version thereof. I did have one jerk on the basketball team who liked to pants others and me in front of the other girls in the school. It is embarrassing but generally harmless prank behavior. But...sticking your hands inside someone's pants is another story altogether, no matter how brief the incident. It's one thing to have an adult do this to another without permission; that's serious enough. It's even more alarming when you note that a child is doing it to another. That sets off a big red flag in my head.
Needless to say, the kid was mortified. He probably wouldn't have said anything. But his friend went straight to the playground monitor and told her what happened. The playground monitor then communicated something to the homeroom teacher. The homeroom teacher took the alleged perpetrator out of the room and asked him what he had been done. The result of that discussion (and no other) was a one minute time out session.
This child has a good speaking relationship with his mother. The mother got the story, but I'm not quite sure she was skilled at interviewing a child after such an incident. It's very easy to suggest things. Certainly this is a very difficult thing to communicate, and so telling the story will be problematic at best. The mother talked to me, and I had a conversation with the child. What I heard was the following.
* There was no cause for the action that he knew of.
* The perpetrator stuck his hands down the back of the kid's pants and pulled it out before he could respond. He did this in front of others.
* The end result of the communication from friend to playground monitor to teacher to perpetrator was this one-minute penalty.
* The child thought that the punishment did not match the action. When I asked him what should have happened, he simply stated "The teacher should have called the parents." Boy...some seven-year-olds have the wisdom of sages. Think about it.
I asked the child if he had been talked to by the teacher. He had not. I asked the child how he felt, and he said "very embarrassed."
What was my response to the situation? What would your response have been?
Here is what I did. I first told the child that it was not his fault. Then I explained to the child that this was "assault." I said "It's no different than if the kid came up to you and punched you in the nose. What would you do if someone punched you in the nose and nobody else was around?" I asked. He replied, "Punch him back in the nose?" I simply replied "You defend yourself. If someone does something like this, you first take care of yourself. Later on, I will support whatever action you take to protect yourself, even if you get in trouble for it." Understand...this was not a violent kid. I do not expect him to go back out onto the playground and deck this fellow. I was primarily concerned about giving him permission to respond on the spot to something that he knew wasn't right. The rest would be handled later.
My next step was to leave a message on the teacher's voice mail. I told her that the child and I felt the response did not match the action, and that I was upset that nobody talked to the child and asked him what had happened or how he felt about it. By the time I got called back today, the teacher said she had "interviewed" the child. "I had no idea this is what had happened," she said.
Pardon me for interjecting here, but...what the hell did the teacher expect when she only interviews the perpetrator? As the kids would say, Duuuuhhh! And I know this school has a policy of kids working problems out amongst themselves. That's great in theory, but this one crosses the line. Seven-year-olds aren't expected to understand how to deal with this kind of behavior, no matter how silly it may appear to some.
The teacher agreed with me that the situation was "serious" and thanked me for calling. She said she was going to call the parents that night.
What wisdom...
I told the teacher that this kid's friend needed to be praised for turning the perpetrator in, and that he was a hero in my book. She agreed.
I told the teacher exactly what I told the child. She did not disagree.
Silly? I don't think so.
- Bill
A measured response
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Bill Glasheen
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A measured response
Bill-Sensei,
I think your reaction was a good one.
"Punch him back in the nose?". Let me qoute you, Sir. "....wisdom of sages".
"Defend yourself" Yes, good safe response. If this were YOUR child would your response have been different? Personaly I would tell my kid to deck him for such an offense. Thats me, I may be wrong or politicaly incorrect but I don't care. Thats not "just" an assault, its a specific kind of assualt, and you can bet he learned it from somebody.
This kid is lucky to have a martial arts instuctor who will "back him up" inside and outside the dojo, that alone goes a long way with anybody in any situation. Your follow through will certainly bolster this kid's confidence in himself and his environment. Good for you Bill!
I think your reaction was a good one.
"Punch him back in the nose?". Let me qoute you, Sir. "....wisdom of sages".
"Defend yourself" Yes, good safe response. If this were YOUR child would your response have been different? Personaly I would tell my kid to deck him for such an offense. Thats me, I may be wrong or politicaly incorrect but I don't care. Thats not "just" an assault, its a specific kind of assualt, and you can bet he learned it from somebody.
This kid is lucky to have a martial arts instuctor who will "back him up" inside and outside the dojo, that alone goes a long way with anybody in any situation. Your follow through will certainly bolster this kid's confidence in himself and his environment. Good for you Bill!
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Bill Glasheen
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A measured response
Before his mouth was washed out with soap by his reliable "Editor" (some would say handler), J.D. wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
...to which I would reply... Proper athletic attire for the basketball court (Bike, not Fruit-o-the-Loom or even Oki-o-the-Loom) dictated that our beloved J.V. cheerleaders' eyes were scorched only with a touch of moonlight.By the way, when you were "pants" did this allow you to reveal the "true Uechi?"
- Bill
A measured response
Bill Sensei
I think I would have done the same thing.
As a parent and as a MA instructor, it makes very good sense to act the way you have acted.
Although, I do not condone a child punching another child in the face. In fact I tell the children not to hit another child in the face or head.
I can remember some of my elementary school childhood. (Isn't it strange that the exciting events or the most terrible events you remember most) I can remember my peers whom have intimidated me and my friends because we were not in the "click" "group" "society" choose whatever word you wish. They often used their size (physical and quantity), or some sex act (don't need to elaborate) to keep us in our place (outside the "click" etc.).
Getting back to the situation: These are my ideas on this situation only, for I do not know these children and can only speak from experiences in my childhood.
The idea that this child could, and did, put his hand anywhere he wanted to, was a message that he gave to this other child. He was demonstrating that he had dominance over this other child by his invasion of privacy. To put him in his place so to speak. It could have been a punch in the nose, it could have been a "pants". Children do not know that this is a serious sexual assault. Yes he knew it was wrong (we hope) to put his hands into someone elses pants, just as he knew it is wrong (again we hope) to punch someone in the nose. But how many children do you know who actual premeditate an attack such as this, especially at such a young age? This attacker displayed a comical (so he thought) way, instead of a violent way, to make his point. Does that make him a bully. Yes, and we wonder where he learned this type of behavior? Is this the type of individual who will cut someone just for the fun of it. Maybe. All criminals were children once.
Now that I have rambled here about a topic that I am not an expert on, does anyone else think like this?
Len Testa
I think I would have done the same thing.
As a parent and as a MA instructor, it makes very good sense to act the way you have acted.
Although, I do not condone a child punching another child in the face. In fact I tell the children not to hit another child in the face or head.
I can remember some of my elementary school childhood. (Isn't it strange that the exciting events or the most terrible events you remember most) I can remember my peers whom have intimidated me and my friends because we were not in the "click" "group" "society" choose whatever word you wish. They often used their size (physical and quantity), or some sex act (don't need to elaborate) to keep us in our place (outside the "click" etc.).
Getting back to the situation: These are my ideas on this situation only, for I do not know these children and can only speak from experiences in my childhood.
The idea that this child could, and did, put his hand anywhere he wanted to, was a message that he gave to this other child. He was demonstrating that he had dominance over this other child by his invasion of privacy. To put him in his place so to speak. It could have been a punch in the nose, it could have been a "pants". Children do not know that this is a serious sexual assault. Yes he knew it was wrong (we hope) to put his hands into someone elses pants, just as he knew it is wrong (again we hope) to punch someone in the nose. But how many children do you know who actual premeditate an attack such as this, especially at such a young age? This attacker displayed a comical (so he thought) way, instead of a violent way, to make his point. Does that make him a bully. Yes, and we wonder where he learned this type of behavior? Is this the type of individual who will cut someone just for the fun of it. Maybe. All criminals were children once.
Now that I have rambled here about a topic that I am not an expert on, does anyone else think like this?
Len Testa
A measured response
As a student, my point of view is this: Do encourage the child to stand up for himself now, before it's too late.
By the time he gets to High School (where I am now) things are just going to be incredibly worse. I see kids every day who are repeatedly tormented. For nothing other than sitting quietly and doing their work.
For example a kid I pass on my way out of my history class is knocked down every single day. The group of kids instigating this started out by just verbally making fun of him.
But when he wasn't phased by that it upset them. They took it farther. Pretty soon this kid can't walk down the hall without getting some assualt, verbal or physical.
It will be much harder for him now to stand up for himself and say this had gone too far. If he had not tolerated what was happening the second they laid hands on him, things would not have gone so far. I'm not encouraging this kid to go out and start trouble, but he should have drawn the line long ago.
If you teach that child to stand up for himself now, he won't get walked on later on in life.
Just IMHO.
~Kt
By the time he gets to High School (where I am now) things are just going to be incredibly worse. I see kids every day who are repeatedly tormented. For nothing other than sitting quietly and doing their work.
For example a kid I pass on my way out of my history class is knocked down every single day. The group of kids instigating this started out by just verbally making fun of him.
But when he wasn't phased by that it upset them. They took it farther. Pretty soon this kid can't walk down the hall without getting some assualt, verbal or physical.
It will be much harder for him now to stand up for himself and say this had gone too far. If he had not tolerated what was happening the second they laid hands on him, things would not have gone so far. I'm not encouraging this kid to go out and start trouble, but he should have drawn the line long ago.
If you teach that child to stand up for himself now, he won't get walked on later on in life.
Just IMHO.
~Kt
A measured response
Bill,
I'm glad you followed up on this to the point of the perpetrator's parents being called. Hopefully now that the teacher has more information, the parents and the school counselor will get involved.
I say the school counselor because I believe there is something more going on here than just a particular m.o. of bullying.
I would bet pretty heavily that the perpetrator has been (or is being) sexually abused by someone.
As you pointed out Bill, 'pantsing' and wedgies were more or less a continuous factor in elementary schools (I believe they are still widely used by schoolyard bullies...). However, what this child did is so unusual, it is very likely an indicator of something being seriously wrong with him. Had he stuck his hand down the front of the other child's pants, alarm bells would probably have gone off for everyone - this is no different. I sincerely hope that either his teacher or the counselor will ask the question "has anyone ever done that to you..." and help this child before he gets older and more capable (secretive) in his victimization of other kids.
Sorry for the downer...
greg
I'm glad you followed up on this to the point of the perpetrator's parents being called. Hopefully now that the teacher has more information, the parents and the school counselor will get involved.
I say the school counselor because I believe there is something more going on here than just a particular m.o. of bullying.
I would bet pretty heavily that the perpetrator has been (or is being) sexually abused by someone.
As you pointed out Bill, 'pantsing' and wedgies were more or less a continuous factor in elementary schools (I believe they are still widely used by schoolyard bullies...). However, what this child did is so unusual, it is very likely an indicator of something being seriously wrong with him. Had he stuck his hand down the front of the other child's pants, alarm bells would probably have gone off for everyone - this is no different. I sincerely hope that either his teacher or the counselor will ask the question "has anyone ever done that to you..." and help this child before he gets older and more capable (secretive) in his victimization of other kids.
Sorry for the downer...
greg
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Tim Ahearn
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A measured response
Since this is about naughty kids and considering the spanking topic of the current uechi quiz, I thought I'd point out that spanking doesn't do anything for kids nonviolent discipline can't--except teach them fear and aggression, and for that reason the American Academy of Pediatrics (I think it was their statement I read) strongly discourages it.
PS it's "pantsed"
PS it's "pantsed"
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Bill Glasheen
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A measured response
Tim
Thanks for the spelling correction. Yes, in retrospect, you are right. Now why didn't my MS Word Spelling and Grammar check know that? Hmmmm....
I have a rather interesting postscript here. I followed up even further, and talked to the teacher much later. It turns out...we may never know exactly what happened. The perpetrator told a consistent story to both teachers and parent. They are all scratching their heads. It could have been a freak accident, according to them, like the way you accidentally get your nose smashed by an elbow when engaging in horseplay. According to this child, one kid accidentally was pulling the victims pants down in some horseplay. Seeing a little moonshine, the "perpetrator" stepped in to pull them back up again...and missed.
Maybe.
The teacher and I talked about it calmly for some time. We were both pleased that the very act of her talking to this child, taking notes, and putting a process in place made the child feel much better. The teacher and I now both know that the "perpetrator's" parents know something happened, whether intentional or freak accident. Certainly there is a new level of awareness all the way around. The only thing that didn't fit was the fact that a witness thought it serious enough to inform another adult. The teacher really had done everything she could, and she felt like there wasn't good closure. She had consulted others about it. I told her that we'll probably never know (for now) exactly what happened, but all the right things were done and the child felt better.
Would I have done anything differently? I mentioned to the teacher that it was probably unfortunate that a hysterical mother talked to the child at length before any of the rest of us did. But I also remember comments I made to the child. I told him to "defend" himself in the future under similar circumstances. I didn't give the kid a formula; I just gave him permission to address the situation in whatever way seemed right at the time. I feel good about my choice of words.
- Bill
Thanks for the spelling correction. Yes, in retrospect, you are right. Now why didn't my MS Word Spelling and Grammar check know that? Hmmmm....
I have a rather interesting postscript here. I followed up even further, and talked to the teacher much later. It turns out...we may never know exactly what happened. The perpetrator told a consistent story to both teachers and parent. They are all scratching their heads. It could have been a freak accident, according to them, like the way you accidentally get your nose smashed by an elbow when engaging in horseplay. According to this child, one kid accidentally was pulling the victims pants down in some horseplay. Seeing a little moonshine, the "perpetrator" stepped in to pull them back up again...and missed.
Maybe.
The teacher and I talked about it calmly for some time. We were both pleased that the very act of her talking to this child, taking notes, and putting a process in place made the child feel much better. The teacher and I now both know that the "perpetrator's" parents know something happened, whether intentional or freak accident. Certainly there is a new level of awareness all the way around. The only thing that didn't fit was the fact that a witness thought it serious enough to inform another adult. The teacher really had done everything she could, and she felt like there wasn't good closure. She had consulted others about it. I told her that we'll probably never know (for now) exactly what happened, but all the right things were done and the child felt better.
Would I have done anything differently? I mentioned to the teacher that it was probably unfortunate that a hysterical mother talked to the child at length before any of the rest of us did. But I also remember comments I made to the child. I told him to "defend" himself in the future under similar circumstances. I didn't give the kid a formula; I just gave him permission to address the situation in whatever way seemed right at the time. I feel good about my choice of words.
- Bill
