bowing in kata

[Kt]

When bowing at the beginning of a kata, do you lower your eyes and look down since there is no opponent? Or, like in sparring, do you bow but still have your head up enough to see what's going on?
Just wondering!

~kt

[Bill Glasheen]

Kt

Interesting handle...

I think you have the right idea. Kata is against imaginary attacks. The battle is within your own mind. If you are performing kata for someone, you are not competing against them.

Bruce Lee movies aside (scene from Enter the Dragon), most will probably tell you that your eyes should not be challenging those in front when performing kata. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep those people within your field of vision. One is always aware, even when respectful.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

J.D.

Good question.

The first answer is arbitrary. You cannot totally experience an artform from another culture without practicing some of the cultural rituals. To the Japanese and the Okinawans, these rituals have meaning.

We could not clap at the beginning and end of class.... Would we practice any better or worse if we didn't wake the spirits up to watch over us? I guess it depends on how you feel about it.

On a second point, we must remember that we are studying a culture of violence. Look at any violent animal species that relies on a social structure to achieve its ends. Various species of the canus genus come to mind (wolves, coyotes, hyenas). Watch their social interactions. Watch how they greet each other. Watch how they work together. Note the social hierarchy. The similarities to their socialization and the activity in a typical dojo are remarkable.

And why do you suppose they evolved with this socialization? The fact that they survived through organized violent behavior probably has a lot to do with it. And this is probably why the military has its own rituals.

And so should you bow before doing kata on the beach? I guess it all depends on whether or not you think the young nubile blonds and brunets will dig it...

- Bill

[Kt]

Well for me, I'm going to a tournament. I know at the beggining before you start your kata you bow and say the name of it. I guess you face the judges or something. But do you look at them or do you put your head down?


[This message has been edited by Kt (edited April 25, 2000).]

[Bill Stockey]

Bill, may I remind you of what our former teacher said about this? (Which I might add he taught me by kicking me) Always look at your opponent

[Scott Danziger]

I don't believe the judges are an opponent.

I believe, if I have this right, when bowing to an opponent or someone you are working out with - the head should stay aligned with your neck and back. You should bow just enough that the other persons eyes are in your peripheral vision. When bowing to seniors/sensei's, you should go a little lower (till you just see the floor, not all the way down) still keeping your head, neck, and back aligned.

Check out VidMag #17! That's where I learned this. And, I might add, is not the way I originally learned how to bow. But I'll take 40+ years of traditional experience over many others.

Scott

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[Jake Steinmann]

The Chinese forms I know have a salute: It's similar to the closed gate position at the end of Sanchin, but usually done with more dynamic movement.

They end with a similar salute, which is sometimes followed by a bow where the head is inclined downward.

Jake

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[Gary Santaniello]

K.T.

You appear to be looking for an answer as to correct format. However, as in many things, opinions may vary as to right or wrong. Most would follow the path of ones sensei.

From my experience of demonstrations, tournaments, board testings and teaching, i find that "Kata" does not reguire eye contact in that the "bow" is simply of respect to whomever you are performing for and/or demonstrating.

It is sometimes used in practice as "tradition" and generally signifies the begining and the end of ones kata.
However, when practicing alone, it is choice. However, i still use the bow.

I might add, that a sloppy looking bow at the begining or end, does not reflect well to most seniors.




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Gary S.

[LenTesta]

I have to agree with with Gary.

I think Kt wants a lesson in Tournament Ettiquette.

It is traditional in some tournaments especially when there are different styles competing, to stand at the front line of the square fighting ring, and then bow with eyes down, and body at 45 degree angle. Then to step into the ring and state your name, style of martial art, then the name of your kata. Then when you begin your form you bow in the same manner.
When finished demonstrating you end with the same bow, then back your way out of the ring. Standing just outside the ring, you bow again in the same fashion always facing the judges, and then leave the area.
This is proper respect for the judges (the bows). Stating your name and style and kata name helps the judges remember who you are, and what you did.

Len Testa

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill S.

You and I have many memories...

- Bill

[Victor]

Do the Chinese Systems have a bow?

Depends on the system. Sometimes their bow is a complete small form.

For example in my friends Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai (Northern Eagle Claw) the bow is always the same for each form. But IMVHO you need to be close to a world class gymnast to do it.



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Victor Smith

[Bill Stockey]

Originally posted by Bill Glasheen: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Bill S.

You and I have many memories...

- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep that we do. I remember Hamada Sensei saying that he was,as we were, to him his most dangerous challenge. The bottom line is that the same state that bowing at the beginning of kata, calmness, sizing up the challenger should occur and be trained at all times. In dojo, at a tournament,during free sparring(and you know what I think of that)

Note: edited to correct UBB coding


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 26, 2000).]

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill S.

So there does seem to be some general discrepancy.

Yes, the scene I picture in my head of Hamada sensei booting you because of incorrect eye positioning is (pardon me) hilariously similar to the scene in Enter the Dragon. In that movie, a Bruce Lee with almost identical attitude of "terrible purpose" smacks his student upside the head for a similar infraction. But then here we have two gentlemen from different cultures and very different attitudes and ways. I cannot picture them ever having a friendly beer together.

1) Do you think that the "no distinction" in the bowing protocol between kata and kumite to be a Japanese or Chinese thing vs. Okinawan thing? Or is it different individual interpretations of a concept? If you read other inputs, you'll see that there are (or appears to be) differences of opinion on the matter.

2) Could this be a matter of semantics? Is there a difference (distinction) between bowing with direct eye contact vs. bowing respectfully with no eye contact but having a senior still in the field of vision vs. bowing with eyes down?

- Bill

[Bill Stockey]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Bill S.

So there does seem to be some general discrepancy.

Yes, the scene I picture in my head of Hamada sensei booting you because of incorrect eye positioning is (pardon me) hilariously similar to the scene in Enter the Dragon. In that movie, a Bruce Lee with almost identical attitude of "terrible purpose" smacks his student upside the head for a similar infraction. But then here we have two gentlemen from different cultures and very different attitudes and ways. I cannot picture them ever having a friendly beer together.

1) Do you think that the "no distinction" in the bowing protocol between kata and kumite to be a Japanese or Chinese thing vs. Okinawan thing? Or is it different individual interpretations of a concept? If you read other inputs, you'll see that there are (or appears to be) differences of opinion on the matter.

2) Could this be a matter of semantics? Is there a difference (distinction) between bowing with direct eye contact vs. bowing respectfully with no eye contact but having a senior still in the field of vision vs. bowing with eyes down?

- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill, I would say the difference lies in how one would treat a person outside a combat situation versus how one would should bow when training in a martial art. Training for combat differs than social situations. For instance the mitiary salutes but doesnt salute civilians


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Bill Stockey