Just wondering, Bill, have you seen anything in West or elsewhere that substantiates the idea that expanding your lower abdomen will preferentially ventilate the lower lobes of the lungs?
Not that this matters to anyone, but I got ventilated today. Not tubed, but ventilated, by a helpful respiratory therapist that felt that vent settings were more easily felt that heard. Just thought I'd share. Stay away from Pressure Control settings if you can.
Where do we go from here?
Moderator: Available
Where do we go from here?
Question: How does a professional boxer breathe? I am willing to bet it is nothing like Uechi breathing. Yet they take killer shots to the body with aplomb! The same shots would cut the strongest Uechi-ka in two in the ring!
If Uechi breathing, or for that matter, Goju breathing et-al, are so effective for in tight, close range work, wouldn’t you think the boxing trainers would be beating on our doors with thousands of tuition dollars in an attempt to give their prize fighters an edge in the ring?
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Van Canna
If Uechi breathing, or for that matter, Goju breathing et-al, are so effective for in tight, close range work, wouldn’t you think the boxing trainers would be beating on our doors with thousands of tuition dollars in an attempt to give their prize fighters an edge in the ring?
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Van Canna
Where do we go from here?
...after a hard day of grizzly wrasslin 
Van-sensei...do you think it may have anything to do with the fact that a lot of Uechi folks don't spend a great deal of time focusing on the conditioning those muscles like the abs and obliques...at least not in the same fashion that boxers do?
Van-sensei...do you think it may have anything to do with the fact that a lot of Uechi folks don't spend a great deal of time focusing on the conditioning those muscles like the abs and obliques...at least not in the same fashion that boxers do?
Where do we go from here?
Mary,
You are correct! The method of training of the boxer is what makes boxing / boxers so effective. They train in taking and giving power shots to the head and body that conditions them beyond compare.
But I am questioning the breathing method that their trainers teach to help them withstand such continuous “hammering” to the body in addition to keeping them oxygenated for 12 rounds!
If there is anyone who can tell us with authority what breathing method works best, IMO,it certainly must be the professional boxing trainer.
I am not sure they would agree with the opinion that unless the boxer holds his breath while punching he will be less strong in delivery and absorption!
Again, if Uechi breathing is supposed to be such a superior method why aren’t all professional athletes banging on our doors!
How about asking some of the Uechi-ka who went to professional boxing, such as Ralph Oullette__ think he stayed with Uechi breathing in the ring? If not, why not?
What is the difference between 12 rounds of boxing and 12 rounds of full contact karate?
How would a boxer be affected by the chemical cocktail in a real life street defense situation as opposed to a karate-ka?
Do we really believe, and could we support the argument, that if a boxer breathes out as he punches, he is weaker than if he had held his breath?
------------------
Van Canna
You are correct! The method of training of the boxer is what makes boxing / boxers so effective. They train in taking and giving power shots to the head and body that conditions them beyond compare.
But I am questioning the breathing method that their trainers teach to help them withstand such continuous “hammering” to the body in addition to keeping them oxygenated for 12 rounds!
If there is anyone who can tell us with authority what breathing method works best, IMO,it certainly must be the professional boxing trainer.
I am not sure they would agree with the opinion that unless the boxer holds his breath while punching he will be less strong in delivery and absorption!
Again, if Uechi breathing is supposed to be such a superior method why aren’t all professional athletes banging on our doors!
How about asking some of the Uechi-ka who went to professional boxing, such as Ralph Oullette__ think he stayed with Uechi breathing in the ring? If not, why not?
What is the difference between 12 rounds of boxing and 12 rounds of full contact karate?
How would a boxer be affected by the chemical cocktail in a real life street defense situation as opposed to a karate-ka?
Do we really believe, and could we support the argument, that if a boxer breathes out as he punches, he is weaker than if he had held his breath?
------------------
Van Canna
Where do we go from here?
Hey, this looks like a nice minefield to stroll through...
I was thinking about this sanchin thing today in the context of a training tool. Personally, I wouldn't perform sanchin in any situation other than just performing sanchin.
I think the following pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter (I promise):
DECONSTRUCT 1. To analyze by using deconstruction 2. To subject to rigorous analysis, as to reveal weakness or error 3. To take apart; disassemble
Thus move, strike, breathe separately while maintaining firmness and suppleness throughout.
------------------
sean
I was thinking about this sanchin thing today in the context of a training tool. Personally, I wouldn't perform sanchin in any situation other than just performing sanchin.
I think the following pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter (I promise):
DECONSTRUCT 1. To analyze by using deconstruction 2. To subject to rigorous analysis, as to reveal weakness or error 3. To take apart; disassemble
Thus move, strike, breathe separately while maintaining firmness and suppleness throughout.
------------------
sean
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Where do we go from here?
Ian
I don't think I could come up with a single reference about lower lobe ventilation. It is a collection of what I have picked up from my little bit of yoga experience along with a biomedical engineering understanding of respiration and 5 years in the dog lab doing open-heart surgery and putting dogs on heart/lung bypass. Actually I almost did my dissertation on high-frequency ventillation.
Ever heard of the "balloon theory?" We speak of it all the time in business. An example would be that if a health insurance company spends lots of time and effort making patients get out of the hospital early, then they may or may not save money (or improve quality) if outpatient care, home health care, and pharmacy costs skyrocket. And guess what? It happens ALL the time. Because of the predictable bad outcomes from this "silo" thinking, we in my health services research unit now think in terms of "episodes of care." My boss - a P-Chem major from Yale with a UVa M.D. - often speaks in terms of increasing the ambient pressure on the entire system.
But let me model like a biomedical engineer for a second. My physiology instructor would often illustrate the way a lung worked with a model she brought to class. It was a large, Plexiglas tube with a hole on the covered top and a piston on the bottom. She would put a hospital latex glove on the hole inside the piston, and show how the latex glove inflated when you pulled the piston down. Obviously this simple model showed how a diaphragm muscle could make a lung inflate. Now...imagine this latex glove inside another tight tube open on the bottom. This would be like the person in sanchin who had the lats pulled down hard and the intercostal muscles contracted. The only place the balloon (the lung) can expand is at the very bottom. So the one or two fingers that managed to find their way down out of the tube would preferentially inflate more, and the rest would remain much less inflated.
The model is easy to construct, Ian. Actually testing the effectiveness of the method in vivo - as you know - is the next step. I don't believe anyone has done that, and it would certainly take some good pulmonary physiologists to conduct that experiment well. The real question is 'How much more effective is lower abdominal breathing than normal breathing?' I'm with you on that, Ian. I don't know. But my experience is that I can make students breathe more efficiently when I see them struggling and show them this method. So on a relative basis, I know I'm on the right track.
Van
Gee, forget the professional boxer; let's call up Mike Tyson. Maybe he'll give us something our ears can appreciate.
But seriously....
I have a great appreciation for the conditioning methods that boxers use. I stole what I know from Bobby Banks, my former boxing coach in Charlottesville. I also had a student (Mack Fischer) who was 3-time intramural boxing champion at UVa before they banned the sport here. We were conditioning our trunks before we saw the Okinawans doing any such exercises, and before others were cautioning us against such extreme training.
But lets think about boxing a bit. Ever look at pictures of the bare-knuckled fighters of past? Ever see the stances they posed in? Don't they look suspiciously like...sanchin? And why did these stances disappear? Because people don't do bare-knuckled fighting any more. They put pillows on their fists so their hands don't get hurt and so they don't hurt their opponents so much. And so like any other fighting method with rules, the fighting style adapts to maximize the probability of winning. As soon as you don't have to worry about getting a knuckle shot to the ribs, the elbows start to wander out a bit...
I have an appreciation of boxing and an appreciation for good boxers. We Uechi folk have a lot to learn because our fighting styles are similar. But - at the risk of sounding like a smart@$$ - I am not in awe of boxers. From my experience, an average boxer falls to the floor just as quickly as an average karateka. I think in general peoples' perceptions are distorted a bit from only watching world champions fight.
One more thing, Van. I want to make it clear that I am advocating a NUMBER of different breathing methods, the specific choice depending on the situation.
- Bill
I don't think I could come up with a single reference about lower lobe ventilation. It is a collection of what I have picked up from my little bit of yoga experience along with a biomedical engineering understanding of respiration and 5 years in the dog lab doing open-heart surgery and putting dogs on heart/lung bypass. Actually I almost did my dissertation on high-frequency ventillation.
Ever heard of the "balloon theory?" We speak of it all the time in business. An example would be that if a health insurance company spends lots of time and effort making patients get out of the hospital early, then they may or may not save money (or improve quality) if outpatient care, home health care, and pharmacy costs skyrocket. And guess what? It happens ALL the time. Because of the predictable bad outcomes from this "silo" thinking, we in my health services research unit now think in terms of "episodes of care." My boss - a P-Chem major from Yale with a UVa M.D. - often speaks in terms of increasing the ambient pressure on the entire system.
But let me model like a biomedical engineer for a second. My physiology instructor would often illustrate the way a lung worked with a model she brought to class. It was a large, Plexiglas tube with a hole on the covered top and a piston on the bottom. She would put a hospital latex glove on the hole inside the piston, and show how the latex glove inflated when you pulled the piston down. Obviously this simple model showed how a diaphragm muscle could make a lung inflate. Now...imagine this latex glove inside another tight tube open on the bottom. This would be like the person in sanchin who had the lats pulled down hard and the intercostal muscles contracted. The only place the balloon (the lung) can expand is at the very bottom. So the one or two fingers that managed to find their way down out of the tube would preferentially inflate more, and the rest would remain much less inflated.
The model is easy to construct, Ian. Actually testing the effectiveness of the method in vivo - as you know - is the next step. I don't believe anyone has done that, and it would certainly take some good pulmonary physiologists to conduct that experiment well. The real question is 'How much more effective is lower abdominal breathing than normal breathing?' I'm with you on that, Ian. I don't know. But my experience is that I can make students breathe more efficiently when I see them struggling and show them this method. So on a relative basis, I know I'm on the right track.
Van
Gee, forget the professional boxer; let's call up Mike Tyson. Maybe he'll give us something our ears can appreciate.
But seriously....
I have a great appreciation for the conditioning methods that boxers use. I stole what I know from Bobby Banks, my former boxing coach in Charlottesville. I also had a student (Mack Fischer) who was 3-time intramural boxing champion at UVa before they banned the sport here. We were conditioning our trunks before we saw the Okinawans doing any such exercises, and before others were cautioning us against such extreme training.
But lets think about boxing a bit. Ever look at pictures of the bare-knuckled fighters of past? Ever see the stances they posed in? Don't they look suspiciously like...sanchin? And why did these stances disappear? Because people don't do bare-knuckled fighting any more. They put pillows on their fists so their hands don't get hurt and so they don't hurt their opponents so much. And so like any other fighting method with rules, the fighting style adapts to maximize the probability of winning. As soon as you don't have to worry about getting a knuckle shot to the ribs, the elbows start to wander out a bit...
I have an appreciation of boxing and an appreciation for good boxers. We Uechi folk have a lot to learn because our fighting styles are similar. But - at the risk of sounding like a smart@$$ - I am not in awe of boxers. From my experience, an average boxer falls to the floor just as quickly as an average karateka. I think in general peoples' perceptions are distorted a bit from only watching world champions fight.
One more thing, Van. I want to make it clear that I am advocating a NUMBER of different breathing methods, the specific choice depending on the situation.
- Bill
Where do we go from here?
Bill,
I know you are, and I am much in agreement with what you write.
This "breathing thing" has been blown so much out of proportion that it confuses, rather than help most of us.
What concerns me the most is seeing 90% of Uechi-ka lock up their breathing in spite of breathing drills.
I think it was Thompson sensei who said that Master Uechi said to breathe naturally as one felt like it.
The human body functions well with movement mated to breathing as needed. The very thought of separating breathing from movement is very much a concern with me.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited July 05, 2000).]
I know you are, and I am much in agreement with what you write.
This "breathing thing" has been blown so much out of proportion that it confuses, rather than help most of us.
What concerns me the most is seeing 90% of Uechi-ka lock up their breathing in spite of breathing drills.
I think it was Thompson sensei who said that Master Uechi said to breathe naturally as one felt like it.
The human body functions well with movement mated to breathing as needed. The very thought of separating breathing from movement is very much a concern with me.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited July 05, 2000).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Where do we go from here?
I'm going to end this thread here, and start another one on breathing alone. I think we are onto something here.
- Bill
- Bill
