Jake, many successful businessses have a "cult-like" organization. The "Nordies" at Nordstrom, The WalMart people, the Disney Company. These people attract those who fit in and thrive in those environments.
I, however, would not. I also would not fit into a dojo or larger organization that had similar characteristics.
There's nothing wrong with believing and striving to live up to the ideals and character traits outlined by Len.
DavidT, jabbing at Jake's adopted signature seems IMO to be a personal shot.(BTW, Jake needs no one to stand up for him, I just thought I'd point it out, though, just to keep things civil.)
Kevin
[This message has been edited by Kevin Mackie (edited August 23, 2000).]
A DOJO OATH
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A DOJO OATH
Well ... the following unsolicited thoughts:
Perhaps DaveT was trying to make a point with humour, that while Jake was verbalizing discomfort with dojos that promote a dojo kun, he was kinda doing something similar in a small way by promoting a creed, or ritual himself at the end of each post with words to live by. I don't know, perhaps it was not meant as a personal zing, but thought provoking instead...
Yea, the dojo kun seems a little hokey, corney and odd feeling in a way. But, maybe provides for a collective finish, zanchin, perhaps to the training period, while declaring to ourselves, each other and whoever else our intentions. Got to remember and live it, though, true enough.
JohnC
[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited August 23, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited August 23, 2000).]
Perhaps DaveT was trying to make a point with humour, that while Jake was verbalizing discomfort with dojos that promote a dojo kun, he was kinda doing something similar in a small way by promoting a creed, or ritual himself at the end of each post with words to live by. I don't know, perhaps it was not meant as a personal zing, but thought provoking instead...
Yea, the dojo kun seems a little hokey, corney and odd feeling in a way. But, maybe provides for a collective finish, zanchin, perhaps to the training period, while declaring to ourselves, each other and whoever else our intentions. Got to remember and live it, though, true enough.
JohnC
[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited August 23, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited August 23, 2000).]
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JOHN THURSTON
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A DOJO OATH
PS:
Len San, I think the matters you wrote as part of your schools rules were great, and thanks for setting forward Master Kanei O Uechi's Dojo Kun.
I unabashedly say I am casting about for a vehicle in which to further this type of practice.
Funakoshi's Dojo Kun: (shouted aloud before every class in the Japan in the 60's per C.W. Nicol; "Moving Zen, Karate as a Way to Gentleness)
"DOJO KUN!! (shout)
Jinkaku kansei ni tsuto moru koto! (Strive for the perfection of character)
Makato no michi o mamoru koto! (defend the paths of truth)
Doy oku no seishin o yashinaru! ( foster the spirit of effort)
Deiji o omonzuru Koto! (honor the principles of etiquette)
Kekki no yu o inashimaru! (guard against impetuous courage)
DOJO KUN!!!"
JT
[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 23, 2000).]
Len San, I think the matters you wrote as part of your schools rules were great, and thanks for setting forward Master Kanei O Uechi's Dojo Kun.
I unabashedly say I am casting about for a vehicle in which to further this type of practice.
Funakoshi's Dojo Kun: (shouted aloud before every class in the Japan in the 60's per C.W. Nicol; "Moving Zen, Karate as a Way to Gentleness)
"DOJO KUN!! (shout)
Jinkaku kansei ni tsuto moru koto! (Strive for the perfection of character)
Makato no michi o mamoru koto! (defend the paths of truth)
Doy oku no seishin o yashinaru! ( foster the spirit of effort)
Deiji o omonzuru Koto! (honor the principles of etiquette)
Kekki no yu o inashimaru! (guard against impetuous courage)
DOJO KUN!!!"
JT
[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 23, 2000).]
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DavidT
A DOJO OATH
This is the Dojo Kun we say at the end of every class here
Seek perfection of character
Be faithful
Endevor
Respect Others
Refrain from violent behavior
If we mess up we do push ups. I messed it up ONCE!
Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a great person can begin something brilliant, they must look foolish to the crowd.
Seek perfection of character
Be faithful
Endevor
Respect Others
Refrain from violent behavior
If we mess up we do push ups. I messed it up ONCE!
Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a great person can begin something brilliant, they must look foolish to the crowd.
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DavidT
A DOJO OATH
I was afraid that my post referring to jakes signiture quote would be taken the wrong way. Though I was trying to make a point, I was not trying to was not trying to make anyone look foolish. So, for that I apologize to Jake and anyone else that was offended. I would also like to say,in advance, for future posts that I may submit, JUST KIDDING.
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Jake Steinmann
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David,
Honestly, I didn't give your comment a second thought, let alone get offended by it. Fear not.
As for the quote, it is my own. Not in the sense that I came up with it (not now, nor having ever been, a member of any military group, let alone the Seals), but in that is something for me, and me alone. I put it on as my signature as a way to identify myself and my focus/mindset in regards to training and the path, and because I found the quote inspiring. If other's do, great. Some, like Panther, have issues with it...also great. But it's not a creed, and it's not words to live by...it's an interesting quote that some, myself included, find valuable.
I would never tell another person to adopt that saying, or think that they should take it on for themselves.
Kevin: No company in this world scares me more than Disney. I knew people who worked in their stores...and what they had to do, frankly, scared me.
"Yes, it is!!!! In the sense that trying to 'cultivate positive values' is an attempt at mind control. Don't therefore be put off by it"
You can call it what you like, but it's still mind control.
Obviously, when teaching unarmed combat, there must be a moral, legal and ethical directive behind the training...otherwise, we train psychopaths.
But...'cultivating postive values' is, in my opinion, sometimes above and beyond our duty as teachers and instructors. We have a job...teach Karate, or Kung Fu, or PDR, or whatever. That's it. We are not surrogate parents who must raise our students in place of their own family.
Postive values start at home, and no where else.
"I don't have these answers, but I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that the boundaries aren't so sharp."
That, I will agree with. It is hard to figure out where to draw the line. But again, if what you're teaching goes beyond the scope of the martial art, I think you're going to far.
"I still think, as an example, for GEM Sensei to read Master Kanei's Dojo Kun before a Camp or at a promotional, would not be attempts at 'mind control' anymore than telling someone how to do a Sanchin arm movement properly would be."
That, I do not agree with.
Sanchin arm movement is a physical movement. It is part of a physical action that directly relates to unarmed combat, which is, I believe, the focus of martial arts training (if other's focus is elsewhere, this may provide a reasoning for our disagreement). There is no more moral quality to GEM advising on Sanchin than there is on Coach Blauer telling me to open my hand when I throw an elbow. It's about bio-mechanics, and nothing more.
A dojo kun is a quite different thing all together. It is a moral and spiritual oath/creed, at least, if I understand the posts so far. Quite different from a simple physical action.
Food for thought.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Honestly, I didn't give your comment a second thought, let alone get offended by it. Fear not.
As for the quote, it is my own. Not in the sense that I came up with it (not now, nor having ever been, a member of any military group, let alone the Seals), but in that is something for me, and me alone. I put it on as my signature as a way to identify myself and my focus/mindset in regards to training and the path, and because I found the quote inspiring. If other's do, great. Some, like Panther, have issues with it...also great. But it's not a creed, and it's not words to live by...it's an interesting quote that some, myself included, find valuable.
I would never tell another person to adopt that saying, or think that they should take it on for themselves.
Kevin: No company in this world scares me more than Disney. I knew people who worked in their stores...and what they had to do, frankly, scared me.
"Yes, it is!!!! In the sense that trying to 'cultivate positive values' is an attempt at mind control. Don't therefore be put off by it"
You can call it what you like, but it's still mind control.
Obviously, when teaching unarmed combat, there must be a moral, legal and ethical directive behind the training...otherwise, we train psychopaths.
But...'cultivating postive values' is, in my opinion, sometimes above and beyond our duty as teachers and instructors. We have a job...teach Karate, or Kung Fu, or PDR, or whatever. That's it. We are not surrogate parents who must raise our students in place of their own family.
Postive values start at home, and no where else.
"I don't have these answers, but I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that the boundaries aren't so sharp."
That, I will agree with. It is hard to figure out where to draw the line. But again, if what you're teaching goes beyond the scope of the martial art, I think you're going to far.
"I still think, as an example, for GEM Sensei to read Master Kanei's Dojo Kun before a Camp or at a promotional, would not be attempts at 'mind control' anymore than telling someone how to do a Sanchin arm movement properly would be."
That, I do not agree with.
Sanchin arm movement is a physical movement. It is part of a physical action that directly relates to unarmed combat, which is, I believe, the focus of martial arts training (if other's focus is elsewhere, this may provide a reasoning for our disagreement). There is no more moral quality to GEM advising on Sanchin than there is on Coach Blauer telling me to open my hand when I throw an elbow. It's about bio-mechanics, and nothing more.
A dojo kun is a quite different thing all together. It is a moral and spiritual oath/creed, at least, if I understand the posts so far. Quite different from a simple physical action.
Food for thought.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
A DOJO OATH
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake Steinmann:
As for the quote, it is my own. Not in the sense that I came up with it (not now, nor having ever been, a member of any military group, let alone the Seals), but in that is something for me, and me alone.
... because I found the quote inspiring. If other's do, great. Some, like Panther, have issues with it...also great. But it's not a creed, and it's not words to live by...it's an interesting quote that some, myself included, find valuable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Steinmann-san!
Please! Don't think I have issues with your quote. I don't! Like I said, I have a number of Seal Team 6 buds (though, I like you haven't been there) who use it like a mantra... Hoo-YAH! That's why I came up with my counter-example. I always say it to them when they chant the "Defeat is worse than Death" mantra... and it's always done with a smile, a joke, and a "hoo-yah"! I actually thinka few of them say their motto a little more often and with a little more conviction just because I countered it! That's also why I put one of these little winky thingies on the post everytime I've replied to your signature...
I actually like the motto. I'm just the type that tries to look at things from a different perspective sometimes and that's where I came up with the counter-motto. That and the fact that it helped me get through a personal time when I needed to have a reason to keep going... in a way, that reason was "to come back and make the bastards pay"... even if it was just by "living well" (as in "Living well is the best revenge" ). IYKWIM.
So, please... No issues... just good banter and a hearty HOO-YAH! OK?
(Kinda like how the good Doctor keeps jabbing me with references to wah criminals!
)
As for the quote, it is my own. Not in the sense that I came up with it (not now, nor having ever been, a member of any military group, let alone the Seals), but in that is something for me, and me alone.
... because I found the quote inspiring. If other's do, great. Some, like Panther, have issues with it...also great. But it's not a creed, and it's not words to live by...it's an interesting quote that some, myself included, find valuable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Steinmann-san!
Please! Don't think I have issues with your quote. I don't! Like I said, I have a number of Seal Team 6 buds (though, I like you haven't been there) who use it like a mantra... Hoo-YAH! That's why I came up with my counter-example. I always say it to them when they chant the "Defeat is worse than Death" mantra... and it's always done with a smile, a joke, and a "hoo-yah"! I actually thinka few of them say their motto a little more often and with a little more conviction just because I countered it! That's also why I put one of these little winky thingies on the post everytime I've replied to your signature...
I actually like the motto. I'm just the type that tries to look at things from a different perspective sometimes and that's where I came up with the counter-motto. That and the fact that it helped me get through a personal time when I needed to have a reason to keep going... in a way, that reason was "to come back and make the bastards pay"... even if it was just by "living well" (as in "Living well is the best revenge" ). IYKWIM.So, please... No issues... just good banter and a hearty HOO-YAH! OK?
(Kinda like how the good Doctor keeps jabbing me with references to wah criminals!
)-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
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A DOJO OATH
Panther-san
Hooyah-right back atcha!
No offense taken, fear not...I enjoy the counterpoint quote
Hmm..."No offense taken." Seem to be writing that a bit lately...must work on my writing style...
No issues, hearty banter, all in good fun.
My point was only that it's a personal thing...not a broad based creed that I would expect others to adhere to.
So again...no offense taken. I never thought you had serious issues with the quote...I just needed an example of someone who was providing a counter point, and you were available (see what you get yourself into?)
HOOYAH!
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Hooyah-right back atcha!
No offense taken, fear not...I enjoy the counterpoint quote
Hmm..."No offense taken." Seem to be writing that a bit lately...must work on my writing style...
No issues, hearty banter, all in good fun.
My point was only that it's a personal thing...not a broad based creed that I would expect others to adhere to.
So again...no offense taken. I never thought you had serious issues with the quote...I just needed an example of someone who was providing a counter point, and you were available (see what you get yourself into?)
HOOYAH!
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
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Tim Ahearn
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A DOJO OATH
I would be out the door, and fast!, of any dojo that read aloud together, or worse shouted in unison, any set of creeds or shared beliefs or goals or whatever--no matter how noble or commendable the words. What you create through such public affirmations of belief is a herd mentality--and herds are scary and dangerous.
And more than that, these public affirmations gloss over the tough questions of what it means to be respectful and honorable and moral. By design. And, of course, the dojo isn't the place to address such issues--the church, the home. So what you're left with is a bunch of statements which by their unexamined and public nature become dangerous. Public affirmations which allow individuals to hear whatever they want in words like honor and respect and morality--no matter how oppressive, or contrary their views appear to you or me--and be buoyed by the others shouting along in unison.
And more to the point for me, of the "Dojo Kun" listed above, there are a number of statements which I simply don't agree with and would not say.
And another point which should be raised: the martial arts already have their fair share of problems with cult-like figures. And on a only slightly more innocent note, with undue reverence to "black belts." You see it all the time, martial artists talking about so-and-so with stars in their eyes. And it's amazing what people will submit to just because the person doing it is a black belt. Adding something which, to my eyes, can only create more of a herd-like atmosphere is a dangerous proposition.
Just some thoughts.
[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited August 24, 2000).]
And more than that, these public affirmations gloss over the tough questions of what it means to be respectful and honorable and moral. By design. And, of course, the dojo isn't the place to address such issues--the church, the home. So what you're left with is a bunch of statements which by their unexamined and public nature become dangerous. Public affirmations which allow individuals to hear whatever they want in words like honor and respect and morality--no matter how oppressive, or contrary their views appear to you or me--and be buoyed by the others shouting along in unison.
And more to the point for me, of the "Dojo Kun" listed above, there are a number of statements which I simply don't agree with and would not say.
And another point which should be raised: the martial arts already have their fair share of problems with cult-like figures. And on a only slightly more innocent note, with undue reverence to "black belts." You see it all the time, martial artists talking about so-and-so with stars in their eyes. And it's amazing what people will submit to just because the person doing it is a black belt. Adding something which, to my eyes, can only create more of a herd-like atmosphere is a dangerous proposition.
Just some thoughts.
[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited August 24, 2000).]
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DavidT
A DOJO OATH
This is great!!! We are disagreeing, yet we have respect for each other and have refrained from violent behavior(i.e. threatening to cyberkick each others cyberarses). Though our characters aren't perfect, at least mine isn't, we have maneged to been faithful to our beliefs. We have enevered and I'm sure the next time we meet we will pat each other on the back and tell each other how wrong the other is, except you'll still be wrong(j/k). But thats ok to. I LIKE IT!!!
P.S. If I wanted to show a profile signiture how would I do that?
P.S. If I wanted to show a profile signiture how would I do that?
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Jake Steinmann
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A DOJO OATH
David,
You're right. It is great. This is one of the few forums on the internet where people can have intelligent discussions without resorting to vulgarities or threats.
Beyond that of course, you're still wrong (That's a joke son...)
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
You're right. It is great.
This is one of the few forums on the internet where people can have intelligent discussions without resorting to vulgarities or threats.Beyond that of course, you're still wrong
(That's a joke son...)Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
A DOJO OATH
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
I agree with Tim 100% __<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Count me in as well...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
)
Ummmm, as the Good Doctor's editor says, "Get back to the point"! My point is, that even though I could speak Japanese and even though I had been there (for a Conference and some Training), I agree with Canna-sempai... (who'd a thunk it )
I can discuss "mawashi-geri", "gedan barai", and "neko ashi dachi" all you want, but I really dislike that... Just say what the damn thing is in English so your students will understand! But I can ignore using the Japanese names for techniques when compared to the "Onegai Shimasu", "Mukso" and "Narande" commands. I understand tradition, but fercryinoutloud, the Okinawans, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans all learned their arts in their native language! On the other hand, I can and will look beyond that if the dojo is the "right place" in other ways.
While I'm not impressed with where someone trained... and I've never been impressed by titles or grand-poo-bah "plaid"-belts... I must admit that some people are just legends in the Martial Arts community. A Uechi example is (of course) Professor Mattson.
Also, if someone has proven they are really good at what they do, I have a lot of respect for that. Gary Khoury certainly fits that description. I could care less that he studied in Okinawa, but you don't walk away from that many top-notch tournaments with #1 beside your name if you don't know anything!
Now some of these guys... like Canna... Who knows?
Ummmm... That's a joke! If you were around in the 80's and hadn't heard the names when Uechi was mentioned, you were either deaf or dumb! The list goes on for many styles... and I could name a few that I'd bet plenty of folks (not Professor ) would go "who?" And they didn't necessarily study overseas and they very often couldn't speak Japanese. Shihan couldn't speak Japanese very well, but he could understand it! Always taught in English...
I agree with Tim 100% __<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Count me in as well...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
~10 years ago, I could read, write and speak Japanese nearly fluently... (I used to read novels, but alas anything that you don't use at this old age gets lost...I even dislike the Japanese terminology we use on the dojo floor and the implied requirement that we should know it in order to feel like we “belong”! Same as I always resented the implication that unless a student travels to Okinawa for training, he would never amount to anything. [Another way to control and make you feel inferior] __
) Ummmm, as the Good Doctor's editor says, "Get back to the point"! My point is, that even though I could speak Japanese and even though I had been there (for a Conference and some Training), I agree with Canna-sempai... (who'd a thunk it
) I can discuss "mawashi-geri", "gedan barai", and "neko ashi dachi" all you want, but I really dislike that... Just say what the damn thing is in English so your students will understand! But I can ignore using the Japanese names for techniques when compared to the "Onegai Shimasu", "Mukso" and "Narande" commands. I understand tradition, but fercryinoutloud, the Okinawans, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans all learned their arts in their native language! On the other hand, I can and will look beyond that if the dojo is the "right place" in other ways.
While I'm not impressed with where someone trained... and I've never been impressed by titles or grand-poo-bah "plaid"-belts... I must admit that some people are just legends in the Martial Arts community. A Uechi example is (of course) Professor Mattson.
Also, if someone has proven they are really good at what they do, I have a lot of respect for that. Gary Khoury certainly fits that description. I could care less that he studied in Okinawa, but you don't walk away from that many top-notch tournaments with #1 beside your name if you don't know anything!
Now some of these guys... like Canna... Who knows?
Ummmm... That's a joke! If you were around in the 80's and hadn't heard the names when Uechi was mentioned, you were either deaf or dumb!
The list goes on for many styles... and I could name a few that I'd bet plenty of folks (not Professor ) would go "who?" And they didn't necessarily study overseas and they very often couldn't speak Japanese. Shihan couldn't speak Japanese very well, but he could understand it! Always taught in English...-
Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
A DOJO OATH
While I obviously see merit in the arguments against dojo kun, I do want to raise a point about the language issue.
France has never gotten over the fact that Napoleon lost the war. They actually have an academy of language purity that cleanses the common language of words that creep in from other languages. These days, they are kept very busy removing all the jargon and acronyms that are accumulating at record speed from the byproducts of the information age. Yes...they actually INVENT words to replace those from other languages. Then they declare them the official standards.
And of course we see how much influence the French have on world matters these days...
Meanwhile...the English language has words/phrases like coup d'etat and chutzpah and de novo and zeitgeist and belladonna. Ever traveled lately? Ever noticed how easy it is to move in a major city without knowing their language? Hmmm... Yes, economics and military might are important but...there's more to it than that. The American melting pot and assimilation phenomenon has created a common ground.
And on another note... Ever tried to conduct a dan test where some of the candidates don't speak English? Ever gone to a foreign country and tried to teach a karate class without knowing their language? I have done both, and it's very handy knowing the Japanese language terms. Why should the Germans learn ENGLISH language names for an Okinawan martial arts technique? And you want ME to invent the German words?
In many international sports and activities a common set of terms is adopted by all participants from all countries. Baseball and Western boxing usually use English language terms. Ballet and fencing use French terms. And - yes - many international karate tournaments use Japanese language terms, And I'll bet Korean language terms are used in international Taequondo torunaments....
More food for thought. It's not ALL about mind control.
- Bill
France has never gotten over the fact that Napoleon lost the war. They actually have an academy of language purity that cleanses the common language of words that creep in from other languages. These days, they are kept very busy removing all the jargon and acronyms that are accumulating at record speed from the byproducts of the information age. Yes...they actually INVENT words to replace those from other languages. Then they declare them the official standards.
And of course we see how much influence the French have on world matters these days...
Meanwhile...the English language has words/phrases like coup d'etat and chutzpah and de novo and zeitgeist and belladonna. Ever traveled lately? Ever noticed how easy it is to move in a major city without knowing their language? Hmmm... Yes, economics and military might are important but...there's more to it than that. The American melting pot and assimilation phenomenon has created a common ground.
And on another note... Ever tried to conduct a dan test where some of the candidates don't speak English? Ever gone to a foreign country and tried to teach a karate class without knowing their language? I have done both, and it's very handy knowing the Japanese language terms. Why should the Germans learn ENGLISH language names for an Okinawan martial arts technique? And you want ME to invent the German words?
In many international sports and activities a common set of terms is adopted by all participants from all countries. Baseball and Western boxing usually use English language terms. Ballet and fencing use French terms. And - yes - many international karate tournaments use Japanese language terms, And I'll bet Korean language terms are used in international Taequondo torunaments....
More food for thought. It's not ALL about mind control.
- Bill
A DOJO OATH
Bill,
Good point. That's the only time I'd be willing to make an exception.
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Van Canna
Good point. That's the only time I'd be willing to make an exception.
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Van Canna
A DOJO OATH
Tony:
I'm not sure I get all what you mean, except you don't think the practice of the dojo kun is a cool thing. It's just something our dojo does for a formal closing. Actually, we close informally most of the time with a simple rei out. I really don't think it's this HUGE deal, but a point some of us disagree about. Heck, some people are freaked by the ritual practice of everyone bowing down and so forth.
JohnC
[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited August 24, 2000).]
I'm not sure I get all what you mean, except you don't think the practice of the dojo kun is a cool thing. It's just something our dojo does for a formal closing. Actually, we close informally most of the time with a simple rei out. I really don't think it's this HUGE deal, but a point some of us disagree about. Heck, some people are freaked by the ritual practice of everyone bowing down and so forth.
JohnC
[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited August 24, 2000).]
