A suggestion on the empty force test.

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MetaBaron
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by MetaBaron »

Ah, here is the can or "worms" that has popped open Image
I begin my clarification on this node of thought.
What is a rock?
By current scientific methods, a rock is defined by it's physical properties, and subsequent effects when examined on other substances. These things can be, by
contemporary methods, defined, and therefore exist as a form or reality within our common understanding. But let us take that further.
Once I have defined what we call "a rock" we must then find ourselves asking even more questions, such as ok, where does it come from? A geophysicist will state
how it is formed,ie, volcanic, or sedimentary and then you can trace it back to the origins of early earth formation, then broken down into it's atomic form. Then one method in
the lead in this endeavor is to then ask ok, so if a rock is just atoms, then what are atoms?. Then the atom is broken down to it's tiniest forms to where we finally come to
a place where current theory and technology is at its limits. The point would and could take a turn to infinity, given time, and scientific endeavor. But the question still would
remain: What IS it? The why the who,the where the when.
The same can be said of the existence of anything, including Chi. So in reality, we really know so little about even the most trivial of matters.
When the experiment was done, the idea was to see the result of a claim of result from Chi power. Rather The opposite should have occurred. The study should have been on the
premise of claims to what Chi itself is, rather than the
existence of a Master's control over what he claimed. My point is, that if science wishes to prove the existence of something, they should examine the source, not the
vehicle or result for the most accurate analysis. My comments previously about undertaking the practice of Tai-chi or Chi-kung for example, follow these same lines.
To Get the best results on studying anything, one may want to immerse themselves on the thing being studied.
In most cases, the opposite would be true. But when trying to prove the existence of what is defined as the basic power source of life, just as extraordinary claims
need extraordinary proof, so do extraordinary mysteries need extraordinary methods to prove them.
With that said, there is a way to prove that Chi exists without any need for such devices.
1. You are alive. That in itself is proof positive. I am pretty sure no one would argue with that. Image
2.Give Chi-kung a try. Even the novice will feel something unexplainable, as it is less on the basis to "believe" and more on mechanics.
3. Remember, it takes tens of years of solid, die hard practice to build up your chi to the point where you can manipulate it.
4.Chi is no more mystical that your own life is. Which is pretty mystical enough. Image
5. Try this exercise diligently, and having done so, if after the result anyone can offer another explanation, I will be shocked. This exercise is repeatable as well.
Take a piece of black cloth and lay it on a table or floor. make sure the cloth is very dark.
Then point your index finger tips together and at first, have them rest approx. two inches from the cloth and about each fingertip should touch each other. Watch them
intently. Then slowly pull them apart to about a distance of 5 millimeters, then slowly bring them back together. Do this for ten minutes a day for one week. After a bit,
(sometimes minutes when first trying, sometimes after a week) you will start to see a discoloration of the air between the fingers. Focus on this area, and keep this
Kung (practice) up for one week. I am 100% sure you will see results before then. As you progress, you will start to see thin shimmering outline your fingers, then
with more practice, your hand, then your whole arm, body, and so on. NOTE: If this Kung is practiced for a year or more, the effects should be permanent. With the practitioner becoming fully aware of
Chi fields within not only living things, but also all matter.
Try it.
I am sure you will not be disappointed.
-Thank you for taking the time to read this.
-Meta
Sorry for my bad English. Image

[This message has been edited by MetaBaron (edited November 08, 2000).]
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RA Miller
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by RA Miller »

Meta,

Forgive the disagreement, but this experiment was not designed to prove what chi is. I don't think many of the experimenters are that concerned, which makes the reducto ad absurdum of your rock example irrelevant.

The sun rises every day. It rises because I get up early and tell it to. Dozens of my friends have seen me do this and the one day I slept in it rained and rained and we didn't see the sun all day. So, obviously, the power of my command causes sunrise. (This is too ridiculous to debate, but bear with me, okay?)

People obviously fall down and pass out during empty force generations. A claim was made that an individual could cause this to happen without using a measurable force. The experiment was designed to limit as many forces that might contribute to the effect as possible _except_ the projectors unmeasurable force.

As if I were to order the sunrise without seeing the sky or knowing what time it was, relying only on my voice.

No effect.

The experiment was not about the existance of chi. It was about a claimed effect of chi. It didn't pan out.

You also say that science should measure the "source rather than the vehicle" which is conveniently impossible when the source can't be defined. What science does and should examine is the cause and effect relationship. If something has no effect in the universe, it doesn't exist. If it can affect something, anything, it is real.
"
As for the "aura reading" experiment (which is what western mystics have called the exact same series of exercises for at least a hundred years) an introductory textbook on either psychology, psychology of perception or physiological psychology should explain it to your satisfaction.



------------------
The Dream is damned,
And Dreamer too,
If Dreaming's all
That Dreamers do.
-Rory
MetaBaron
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by MetaBaron »

I really do not hold much credence in modern
psychology, but since you mentioned it, do you happen to have any links to
documentation that will bolster your
claim that somehow explains this phenomenon away?
-Meta
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by Ian »

Meta, your suggestion is that of many chi enthusiasts: the best test is that of experience and that we should measure chi not by any objective experiment but by doing it for AT LEAST 10 years and then we will understand the power.

Well, isn't it possible that immersing yourself in a belief system will lead to your acceptance of that belief system's tenets?

If I told 5000 people per religion to study taoism, judaism, catholicism, jainism, islam, etc and assured them they'd FEEL the SINGULAR truth of it after 10 years, I'd certainly be left with some in each group who came to believe that their assigned religion was the ONE. They'd just be at odds with the others from other religions who FELT theirs was the ONE.

Similarly, if everyone tried to study chi for ten years, I'd be shocked if anyone who found it utterly ineffective and unrewarding could actually keep it up for a decade. These people would be said to have no input on the matter because they didn't do the minimum time in training. But even if someone did do it for ten years and they got no results they'd be reminded it's AT LEAST a decade. Meanwhile those who FELT the chi would be viewed as supportive data, even though chi is wiggly enough to be almost anything they felt.

Flexible confirmatory data is counted, nonsupportive data is discounted or explained away. This "test" has only one outcome.

And even the confirmatory data is subjective. People FEEL the chi. Fine; I remember feeling the force after watching The Empire Strikes Back when I was much smaller. That didn't make it so. I also know that you can get people positively DRUNK on nonalcoholic grape juice if you tell them its alcoholic (even if they KNOW they're in a psych experiment!). Don't confuse FEEL with REAL, in other words. To quote Sagan on his thoughts on believing in the afterlife in his last months: "I don't want to believe, I want to KNOW."

This requires an objective experiment. And an objective experiment requires the claim of a measurable effect. "Chi is out there, I FEEL it," does not fall into that category, so it doesn't help us KNOW.
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by Panther »

Bill... Ian...

Ye skeptics... Your problems are in the fact that you just can't see chi. For those of us who can, the existance is self-evident. Image

(It's a "joke"... folks... a "joke"...)

Image <- smiley captioned for the humor impaired...
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RA Miller
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by RA Miller »

Meta-
It'd be quite a chore to dig out my own textbooks. We did your experiment in an introductory psych class. The physical explanations are as follows- any object placed against a contrasting background is seen to have an outline. It is a mechanism for increasing percieved contrast between objects. I have a green book with gold lettering in front of me. The green seems darker at the edge of the lettering and the gold seems brighter. It isn't, our vision just percieves it that way.

With a light object against a black background, it will appear to have a glow. The glow will expand as the cones in the eye get tired, eventually touching in your experiment. The reason for the years of training is to overcome the eyes constant reflex twitching. Frankly, I'm surprised it takes years. Most college freshmen get it down in a few minutes.

For the same mechanism, but with an apparently opposite effect, go out tonight, find a faint star and stare at it until your chi snuffs it out and makes it disapear. Or until your cones get fatigued and quit responding to photons. I've always taken the physiological explanation for this effect. I'd feel so guilty if I'd really destroyed hundreds of stars with my chi.

Rory
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Bill Glasheen
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Meta

There are some decent philosophical approaches to explaining observed (or measured) phenomena. I believe much of the reason for this started with arguments about the nature of the universe and matter. There were many, many wild, convoluted theories that explained the nature of things. They could be justified because...well...you could explain and qualify until finally things fit and worked. A gentleman by the name of Ockham went through a philosophical exercise to justify the proposition that one should always start with the simplest explanation to describe "truth". It is now referred to as Occam's razor.

home.xnet.com/~blatura/skep_1.html#1.6

This is both useful in terms of seeking "truth" as well as practical in terms of dealing with it. If you have a simple explanation for observed phenomena and a new situation based on that paradigm fits the model, you're good to go and your mind doesn't need to be unnecessarily taxed. As soon as you find a situation that parts from the paradigm, then and only then should you seek to make things more complex. And such situations create all the excitement in science and discovery.

Example: My sister looks at dog with fierce eyes. Dog pees. I have an explanation that any dog she has raised honors the master/dog relationship to the point that causing displeasure (detected by the dog via visual display of such) elicits a visceral response. I have found this to work. Every other situation where I observe the behavior (or don't) seems to fit it. I don't need to create a chi paradigm to explain it. But the day she's able to do the same thing on the other side of a curtain, then I'm signing up for lessons... She's got something I can't explain, and I need to rethink my paradigm.

And so forth.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited November 09, 2000).]
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by Panther »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RA Miller:

I'd feel so guilty if I'd really destroyed hundreds of stars with my chi.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oggie-Ben Doggie grabbing his head: "Aaaaaauuuuugh!"
Fluke Starbucker: "Did you just get the feeling that millions of voices were calling out to you and were suddenly silenced?!?!"
Oggie-Ben Doggie: "Naaaa, just a really bad headache."

Image ROTFLMAO...
MetaBaron
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by MetaBaron »

Hello again,
As I stated before, I do not hold much observence in psychology. Reason? It is a rather broad generalization I know, but,I find that it a science that is full of gaping holes, inane arrogance, ever changing therories, and basically largely unfounded on the basis that in the grand scheme of things, in all of mankinds' endeavors and advances, what have we really found out about ourselves and the world which we are a part of? In my opinion, absolutely very little.
So although your point about my experiment being explained by simply tiredness of rods and cones with suggestiveness attached may be valid if you come with that mindset, but I do not accept it as to the full explaination, as I really was not refering to the lightness or darkness around the edges of objects. This is not the phenomenon that is the object. Try it for one week. You'll see what I mean.
Also, I humbly reject this explaination because my own perception shows me a very interesting view of people, and reality at this moment in my life. If you could look through the world and see what I see, you would perhaps feel differently. But of course, that is not possible. Each person's perception can be vastly differing.
It is indeed frustrating to me that I cannot convey what I know to be true, and yet, I feel as though I have only touched the tip of the iceberg. Belief has little to do with it at all. What is most valuable to me is to constantly evaluate and question my truths,and therefore my reality. A very wise person once said to me that no matter how much respect you have for a person, never take the words of men either written or spoken, as the truth. Always find truth yourself, and then the only person you will have to convince after that, will be also yourself.
-I am enjoying this topic!
Thank you for that Image
-Meta

------------------


If you overlook the Way right before your
eyes, how will you know the path beneath
your feet? Advancing has nothing to do with
near and far, yet delusion creates obstacles
high and wide. Students of the mystery, I
humbly urge you, don't waste a moment, night
or day!

- Shih-t'ou (700-790)


[This message has been edited by MetaBaron (edited November 10, 2000).]
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RA Miller
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A suggestion on the empty force test.

Post by RA Miller »

Meta-

E-mail me.

kamila@teleport.com


------------------
The Dream is damned,
And Dreamer too,
If Dreaming's all
That Dreamers do.
-Rory
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