Using the body - it isn't simple!

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue May 15, 2001 8:32 pm

Just when you think you have things figured out, you realize you've only made it more complex. That's the way it seems anyhow as I evolve over the way I do my techniques in kata.

Anybody worth their salt in martial arts understands the importance of using the body in technique. It starts with the most fundamental kata in any system, and goes from there. How one employs the body, however, is where it can get complex and/or varied.

A fighter can connect translational (linear movement of the center) or rotational (body movement about the center) to a leg or arm technique and add significantly to the power. Actually I'm amazed how many practicing karateka can't even connect that energy to their technique. You'd think they never played a common sport like baseball, or understood that martial movements are a lot like power movements in other sports.

But there are other variations on the theme. I've noticed two somewhat distinct "schools of thought" (for lack of a better phrase) on applying body movement. One class might be labeled the "home run hitters", whereas the other might be classified as the "power preservationists." Having worked with the likes of Frank Gorman and Bob Kaiser, I've seen the Nakamatsu brand of whole body power generated in individual sanchin strikes and waukes. I've heard the expression "summation of joint forces" used before. Each and every element from leg to forearm gets added to a powerful thrust that may indeed also include an explosive exhale. The advantage is obvious; one delivers a maximal power effort in a single killing blow. The disadvantage? I've observed folks doing advanced Uechi kata with this style, and it appears that the emphasis on power compromises the speed. Furthermore the energy output appears to be extremely inefficient when you consider that many techniques generate their power de novo. It's like the automobile equivalent of an American 60's muscle machine.

On the flip side, one might find the Tomoyose school of fluid movement with blinding speed. Often when I watch people like George do kata, it's difficult for me to see the individual movements. Occasionally I've seen this in Jim Thompson's kata. Occasionally when I ask him to isolate a movement that I saw being particularly "odd" in his form, he will do it entirely differently (and in very familiar fashion) when done this way. In fact, one often finds that the movements between the movements take on meaning. The advantage? Speed for one. Once a person starts a move in a logical sequence, the subsequent techniques follow with incredible speed. I also find a different kind of power being generated that is much like the stone rolling down a hill that gains momentum. The transitions become both sources of power and interpretation. The biggest disadvantage I can find is the lack of that single explosive technique that is so...well...exciting.

I can see advantages to each approach in specific situations. I can see advantages to embracing one extreme vs. another. What I haven't seen much of are folks that understand the potential of mixing approaches within a single kata. Perhaps for many, one particular approach is deemed superior. Perhaps specific approaches match certain body types. Perhaps it's difficult to mix approaches, or difficult to master the spectrum of ways one uses body power and flow.

Thoughts? Comments? Disagreements?

- Bill

Raffi Derderian · Post by **Raffi Derderian** » Tue May 15, 2001 9:34 pm

Bill,
I have a video of several of the Okinawan masters testing for their 8th (?) dans. My God, there were so many different flavors of kata. I have also seen, very recently, the tapes of Gushi Sensei doing his katas. Lots of variations with regard to body mechanics and torque.
One nice thing about this system of Uechi-ryu is it does allow for the practitioner to find the way that will suit them best.
Raf

Dale Knepp · Post by **Dale Knepp** » Tue May 15, 2001 9:49 pm

Mr. Glasheen,

Thank you for your post. I believe that not many martial artist in this country and around the world for that matter understand that they lack the very knowledge that you expressed in your post. Only the most exceptional teachers in the world seem to be the ones that understand both the best way to use their body movement and recognize the lack of understanding in others.

I believe my instructor, Taika Seiyu Oyata, even now at the age of 72 years to be one of those teachers and has coined the terms tuite-jitsu and kyusho-jitsu to express his understanding of correct body mechanics/dynamics. He has this amazing combination of explosive power and flowing speed that you find lacking in others.

At first, I thought that Oyata sensei meant only striking vital points (the transliteration of the term kyusho-jitsu would be the art of vital points) but I didn't understand the complexity of his meaning. So many people today think that it is something separate from karate and just means where and how to hit these vital points (thanks to George Dillman and others). Later on, Taika Oyata differentiated between kyusho strikes and atemi strikes stating that a kyusho strike resulted in permanent debilitation or death and atemi strikes were a warning (non-lethal) to one's opponent.

As time went on, it became obvious that kyusho-jitsu was something more complete than that but was not different from karate in itself. Kyusho-jitsu, I believe means a full understanding and ability to use "natural body dynamics" to execute technique. Many of us are studying this art but Oyata sensei is the only person that I have personally seen that has this capacity.

Regards,

Dale Knepp

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Wed May 16, 2001 10:46 am

Glasheen-sensei,

Thoughts on power generation. Okay.
Ground power, where the body makes a bone to bone connection from the foot to the fist, effectively focussing the power of a kick into the knuckles. Classic karate.
Dead power, where limp body weight suddenly comes into play, the way a good ground fighter can keep so much force on your lungs without ever providing enough rigidity to lever him off. Also used in dead-hand strikes and can really harm the spine in throwing and counter throwing.
Gravity. Animal McYoung's "drop step" is a great place to start. Essentially falling in place of lunging.
Whip power. Rotational power with a sudden "break" at the end, like cracking a whip with your own hand.
Wave action. Raising your center of gravity and moving over your strike zone before dropping _or_ dropping your weight and letting it spring off the ground to drive the damage upwards.

Most karateka (and, as a jujutsuka you can take my generalizations for what they are worth) focus almost exclusively on "ground power". And that's good, it generates the devestating linear strike that finishes things. It does require strong stances and I think this is where many lose sight of the goal, believing that the formal stances are to slow to fight from.

That's absolutely true. You can't move quickly in a low, deep strong stance and you shouldn't try. I think it was Nakayama who said "You don't fight from stances. You finish fights from stances." Practice the soft flowing, the evasions, but strive for a single instant to be in perfect stance at the moment of impact. Not an instant earlier or later.

To my experience, it's not a trade-off between speed and power.

However, jujutsu is infighting and that colors my perception. It's just as likely to drop into a stance to place the sudden weight on your opponent as it is to ground the strike. Secretly, I suspect that karate works better at extremely close range ("kata you move in, kumite you move back" as someone was questioning on another thread).

Hope this is relevant.
Rory

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed May 16, 2001 2:39 pm

Thanks for the comments, folks.

Raffi

Gotta see those tapes. We should watch over some brews, no?

Dale

One thing I think Mr. Dillman learned early on when attempting to reproduce the feats of Oyata sensei is that the way you hit is probably more important than where you hit. And Dillman is no slacker by any measure.

Rory

New handle? Same person?

Actually, Rory, Uechi ryu is supposed to be an infighting systems and - in my biased mind - shares more with jiu-jitsu than it does with traditional Okinawan karate where deep stances are common. I remember Bob Campbell once described Uechi as a Chinese style in Okinawan clothes. Not to offend anyone (Moi??) but I've always felt that the yakusoku kumite designed in Okinawa have done more to confuse people on the interpretation of kata sequences as they have to clarify things - hence the conflict about forward vs. backwards movement. Or to take a more forgiving stance (pardon the pun), maybe it's just a pedagogical artifact.

I thought you did a nice job of describing some basic concepts of power. But then there are a few who think we can't possibly understand...

Actually though I think you bring up a key point here. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

"You don't fight from stances. You finish fights from stances." Practice the soft flowing, the evasions, but strive for a single instant to be in perfect stance at the moment of impact. Not an instant earlier or later.

Hmmm... If that's the case, then why do some people do advanced forms as if every move was an ippon, and turns were nothing more than annoying interruptions? Or am I missing something?

- Bill

Evan Pantazi · Post by **Evan Pantazi** » Wed May 16, 2001 4:19 pm

I see this ability in most genuine high ranking Black Belts...there is no exclusive on this. For example, my Tai Chi instructor Bo Sim Mak was all of 4'6" and able to move like no one I have seen, pushing the biggest and burliest of Men around with body control extrodinare. If you train for a couple of decades seriously this will naturally occur.

Dale San,

You need more information.

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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Wed May 16, 2001 4:42 pm

Bill:

Why not do every move as an ippon?

There are many kata movements that we learn.
90% of which we may never get to use when the ***t hits the fan. If I program every move to be an ippon, I am increasing the chance that the 10% of the moves that I will be able to remember to use will be effective.

Can you clarify your statement about turns?
Are you saying that some practice every movement as an ippon BUT when they turn they are practicing a weak and ineffective turn?

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Len

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed May 16, 2001 8:23 pm

Bill,
Good thread.

Flow and power concepts are very individualistic and subject to lots of interpretations.

Then again we must look at the make up of the person.

For example, Art Rabesa is of the mentality of total destruction in each shot, his explosive karate is frightening, and his transitional stances carry the same intent.

Recall he used his professed principles a few times in real fights on the street, the most notable one, when he sent three punks to the hospital with fractured sternum, jaws and leg, in an attack upon him and his girl in Chinatown.

So in his case, one punch__man down, one back kick__man down__one roundhouse kick to the leg__man down. Makes you smile, right?

So lots of theories on power. Here is one I like:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> TOYAMA Sensei has been teaching us to
understand and apply the concept of Yawarakasa. This is the most difficult
of Kanbun Sensei's three major concepts of performance, calling for
tension-free, relaxed natural motion. Sensei has begun our deeper study of Binkansa -- sensitivity and proper timing of reaction -- though work on Yawarakasa will never be done. If all
goes well, we will have just enough Binkansa in a few years (maybe) to begin
advanced work on Chikarazuyosa -- instinctive momentary and instantaneous
application of natural hardness. These three concepts depend on each other, and
comprise the heart of old-style UechiRyu Karate-Do performance and strong
defensive fighting ability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And….

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In karate, it is easy to make movements and perform a kata mechanically
without feeling or indication of understanding the meaning of the motions.
Anyone can learn to perform the physical mechanics of a kata in only a few
sessions. However, the spirit -- the complete performance of each technique
with Yawarakasa (proper softness), Binkansa (timing), and Chikarazuyosa
(correct application of hard elements) -- depends on the performer's
complete understanding of the meanings of all the techniques and their
relationship to stance, balance, direction, and logical sequence in the
kata. Softness is not weakness at all, timing is not simply speed, and
hardness is not merely tension or stress -- these must be understood and
applied in proper balance and relation to each other to give the kata
"spirit".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

**

Having read that, the gnawing questions that comes to mind, is:

even as we internalize all these concepts, will our body/brain let us perform accordingly under stress?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Under sudden injection of stress, the individual usually returns to his instinctive mode of behavior [in this case a movement pattern].

Blood flow is redirected to the major muscles [thighs, chest, arms] and away from the lower extremities engendering loss of dexterity in foot motion/body movement on the feet and coordination of movement from the vascular occlusion.

However the explosive response remains as propelled by gross motor action put into gear by the survival instinct. Muscles have a way of tightening in spite of our “relaxed training” __

Soft, evasive movement doesn’t seem to work, as the individual’s legs seem to numb.

Best way to train power, in my opinion, is to flow along these limitations imposed on us by fight or flight.

Of course there will always be exceptions.

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited May 16, 2001).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed May 16, 2001 8:59 pm

Van

Many of your quotes address my feelings quite nicely.

I'd like to point one thing out... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Blood flow is redirected to the major muscles [thighs, chest, arms] and away from the lower extremities engendering loss of dexterity in foot motion/body movement on the feet and coordination of movement from the vascular occlusion.

I can deal with that! I'm not talking Sugarfoot Jones here. I'm just talking about adding the power of movement originating in those major muscle groups to the techniques manifested at our hands, feet, elbows, and knees. When you watch some people do advanced kata, you'd think they'd do no worse with their feet firmly planted in cement.

As for your example of Art Rabesa, well...I can't argue about his effectiveness as a fighter. Funny...I remember one of many conversations I had with Art over a meal, where he talked about his fighting ability. Art is one of those people who instinctively knew how to fight before he ever wore a gi. All Uechi did was refine and reinforce the tiger within. And remember who Bob Campbell's sparring instructor was? And Bob Bethoney's? I've never seen Bob Bethoney fight, but I've had the pleasure of seeing Bobby Campbell. You know...you can't argue with results, no matter how you describe it.

Sometimes...I wonder how much the "real" fight looks like what people do when they do any one karate exercise... If only we could follow people through their lives with a camera. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Of course there will always be exceptions.

You know...I've never been stumped by the Tueller drill. Shot them dead every time! Why? Because I moved!! Nobody ever told me I couldn't; at the time it seemed the most natural response to the situation. Training or instinct? Who knows...but I'm the only one I personally know who defeated the drill.

- Bill

Dale Knepp · Post by **Dale Knepp** » Wed May 16, 2001 9:17 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:
One thing I think Mr. Dillman learned early on when attempting to reproduce the feats of Oyata sensei is that the way you hit is probably more important than where you hit. And Dillman is no slacker by any measure.

The funny thing is that I see George Dillman and company seem to be more concerned with where to hit someone as opposed to how. At least, that's impression one gets from watching their video clips most of which appear to be contrived set ups to impress the uninformed. Mr. Dillman's method hardly resembles anything that he could have learned from Taika Oyata. I was present when Mr. Dillman learned first hand how someone can be knocked out from a light strike to the neck and have the video tape showing Dillman being knocked out.

Evan Pantazi wrote:
I see this ability in most genuine high ranking Black Belts...there is no exclusive on this. For example, my Tai Chi instructor Bo Sim Mak was all of 4'6" and able to move like no one I have seen, pushing the biggest and burliest of Men around with body control extrodinare. If you train for a couple of decades seriously this will naturally occur.
Dale San, You need more information.

Perhaps, this is so for your Tai Chi instructor. But in my experience, I haven't meet anyone else who can actually do what you describe. I have only been studying Okinawan karate for twenty-five years, been to Okinawa and mainland Japan several times, met and trained with many senior practitioners from there as well as from People's Republic of China, England, Italy and Poland. I assume from your response that you have more experience than I do. Please be kind enough to enlighten me.

Best Regards,

Dale Knepp

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Wed May 16, 2001 10:38 pm

Some combinations of movements are worthy of being trained for the transmission of my power to them -- "strikes". This is the "whole body" stuff you see in Mr. Nakamatsu's training exercises. We train an exaggeration of movement to find out how our bodies work so that with less movement we can generate the maximum power. (I hit pretty good for a girl

) By this type of full body training I learned to use my FULL BODY for each and every technique. And when I move to the softer side of Uechi, I am still using my full body -- I just use it to receive the attack & displace it instead of striking out.

Most techniques can be both of these things. I would hope that I never end up in such a comfort zone that "I always do my kata this way". That is not training, not "keiko". Learning does not best take place through only repetition. Learning best takes place with reflective repetition - by thinking about what you are doing.

Doing sanchin with full body power allows me to understand one family of applications. Doing sanchin like a tai chi form, where I divide my weight from one leg to the other and divide the power in my arms to receive energy as often as I give it - shows me another family.

By combining these two approaches I find the family in between.

I train this way because I want a range of techniques, a continuum of forces. I don't want to only be able to knock the living sh** out of people. I want the option of submission. I want the option of running away. I want options. Ippon-kumite doesn't offer many options, and kata offers them all.

cheers,
Dana

Evan Pantazi · Post by **Evan Pantazi** » Thu May 17, 2001 2:02 am

Dale San,

First I have the same time in and have trained with several Oriental folks as well. That is not the intent of my post, it was addressing the "only" phrase...nothing may be ascertained from watching a video. I have watched a few of the senior members of this board move a bit and will tell you the same of them...body mecahnics, power and instinctual flowing motion is fully realized with speed. The applications of standing Ukes are also on video I have of Oyata Sensei, which I have nothing but respect for, this illustrates nothing, the personal training is what counts. "So many people today think that it is something separate from karate and just means where and how to hit these vital points (thanks to George Dillman and others)"...you need more information as he does not seperate the two, and his mission has always been to get people to better understand their Kata (same with us others)...that's Karate.

Be well sir.

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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu May 17, 2001 5:25 am

Len

I guess you have to see it to understand it. I wish I could name names and speak of specific performances, but I don't want to offend. And as Raffi points out, the variations are probably a good thing.

You are right though in that my language isn't quite precise. Frankly it is a way I used to do my kata when I was a transfer from a hard Japanese style to Uechi ryu. My first karate instructor had a "one shot kill" mentality. That's fine but...people don't usually fight that way. Don't get me wrong - it's great to end a fight with a single technique. On one occasion in my past when I was attacked, I reflexively did just that (punched someone right square on the nose and set them on their butt - before I even realized what I did). But when you are fighting an equal or better, one often isn't that lucky.

I'll create an example, Len. Sanchin is sanchin. We step, we strike, we step, we strike, we turn, we strike, etc. Everything is broken down to the lowest common denominator. Each thrust can be done with maximal power, and each thrust must be done from zero to maximum energy. Now take sanseiryu. This kata has better flow than any other kata in the system. Other kata that have elements of it (seichin, seiryu, kanchin) also flow beautifully. And yet one might see some practitioners doing their sanseiryu as if they'd done 20 years of karate practice like one year twenty times. The movements are done with absolutely no deference to context. Forward movements are isolated from the thrusts, blocks, and strikes. Turns are isolated from the thrusts, blocks, strikes, etc. Ichi...boom...ni...boom...san...boom. Fine. But why not just practice hojoundo? Are there not elements of power and functionality in the footwork that give the hand and leg movements meaning? Can someone afford to move that way when attacked by three opponents? Have you ever seen world champion fighters move that way except against a slacker? And don't world champion fighters learn to connect their complex body and foot movement to their power?

Is that more clear?

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited May 16, 2001).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu May 17, 2001 5:40 am

Funny thing is, I almost want to use that funny "c" word when describing this. Almost...(but not quite, Evan san

). This kind of complex body and leg movement that flows to power released at the hand is something easier felt than described. You know it when you feel it, or are on the other end of it. But if you move, stop, attack, stop, move, stop...you'll never "get" it.

- Bill

P.S. Evan san, Bobby Campbell once told me I had lots of the "c" stuff, and I was letting my science get in the way. It made me chuckle...

Evan Pantazi · Post by **Evan Pantazi** » Thu May 17, 2001 5:58 am

Glasheen Sensei...I didn't mention it either, I know it's a bad (mad, sad, fad) word to use in public!

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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com