Hello all,
I am 14,my name is Anthony and I am from Leeds England.I have studied shotokan karate-do for 3-4 years and am currently taking my shodan examination and coaching test.I wanted to post a thread about the deepest stances in any for of karate. I think that shotokan has frighteningly deep stances. Don't get me wrong I love them but they hurt my legs.Any ideas on how to improve.Thanx.
Oh this might help
I am 6'2
I weigh 10st 2lbs
Thanx all
Shotokans deep stances!
Moderator: Available
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Bruce Hirabayashi
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Tue May 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Frederick County, MD USA
Shotokans deep stances!
Hello Forum-ites!
In case some readers are unfamiliar with the British unit "stone", one stone = 14 U.S. Pounds or 6.35 Kg. So for those of you who don't care to do the math, Moobrack weighs approximately
- 142 U.S. pounds
or masses approximately
- 64.4 Kg
By the way, Moobrack ... I'm not quite sure if your question is
a) "How can I do deep stances without hurting my knees?"
b) "How can I improve my deep stance within the context of a Shotokan kata?"
c) "What is (are) the deepest stance(s) within Karate?"
d) "What styles of Karate (Martial Arts?) employ the deepest stances?"
e) Other?
Could you please clarify? Also, what is the Japanese name of the stance that concerns you?
Cheers,
Bruce Hirabayashi
Uechi-ryu Atlanta
In case some readers are unfamiliar with the British unit "stone", one stone = 14 U.S. Pounds or 6.35 Kg. So for those of you who don't care to do the math, Moobrack weighs approximately
- 142 U.S. pounds
or masses approximately
- 64.4 Kg
By the way, Moobrack ... I'm not quite sure if your question is
a) "How can I do deep stances without hurting my knees?"
b) "How can I improve my deep stance within the context of a Shotokan kata?"
c) "What is (are) the deepest stance(s) within Karate?"
d) "What styles of Karate (Martial Arts?) employ the deepest stances?"
e) Other?
Could you please clarify? Also, what is the Japanese name of the stance that concerns you?
Cheers,
Bruce Hirabayashi
Uechi-ryu Atlanta
Shotokans deep stances!
How could I do it without hurting my knees?
The stance is Ko-Kutso-Dachi.It kills my knees to do it deep
The stance is Ko-Kutso-Dachi.It kills my knees to do it deep
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Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
Shotokans deep stances!
Tell your instructor that the stances are hurting your knees and do not want permanent difficulties later on. Then Raise your stances....all after your test.
Everyone is different and what may be OK for one isn't necessarily so for another. You want Karate to strengthen your body not weaken it.
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
Everyone is different and what may be OK for one isn't necessarily so for another. You want Karate to strengthen your body not weaken it.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
Shotokans deep stances!
moobrack:
The kokutsu dachi is a rear leg weighted stance. The weight distribution is roughly 60% on rear and 40% on front.
In the Uechi-ryu kata Sanseiru we use the zenkutsu dachi (forward leg weighted stance) to attack with the elbow, then the leg scoop is initiated while reverting to the kokutsu dachi. This weight distribution allows for a strong base when grabbing an opponents leg so that you will not be thrown backward by the force of the kick.
I am assuming your meaning of "deep" is that your knees are bent too much. Deep can also mean girth or the width of the stance. Either way the knees will be bent too much to correctly distribute the weight in the proportion that is required. This is also a problem, in reverse, of the zenkutsu dachi.
Also the kokutsu dachi allows for the lifting of the front leg to avoid a sweep, or if you want to use that leg to kick. It will be impossible to lift the front leg if the stance is too deep.
Evan is right. Either shorten your width or dont bend the knees so much if your width is ok.
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Len
The kokutsu dachi is a rear leg weighted stance. The weight distribution is roughly 60% on rear and 40% on front.
In the Uechi-ryu kata Sanseiru we use the zenkutsu dachi (forward leg weighted stance) to attack with the elbow, then the leg scoop is initiated while reverting to the kokutsu dachi. This weight distribution allows for a strong base when grabbing an opponents leg so that you will not be thrown backward by the force of the kick.
I am assuming your meaning of "deep" is that your knees are bent too much. Deep can also mean girth or the width of the stance. Either way the knees will be bent too much to correctly distribute the weight in the proportion that is required. This is also a problem, in reverse, of the zenkutsu dachi.
Also the kokutsu dachi allows for the lifting of the front leg to avoid a sweep, or if you want to use that leg to kick. It will be impossible to lift the front leg if the stance is too deep.
Evan is right. Either shorten your width or dont bend the knees so much if your width is ok.
------------------
Len
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Malcolm Wagner
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Maurepas, La., USA
Shotokans deep stances!
Hi Anthony,
In most of the pictures of Funakoshi Sensei that I have seen, he is demonstrating technique from a quite natural-stance.
I don't know if it is correct, but I have heard that many traditional Okinawan stances (which are natural, not too deep) were lowered to slow down the action, to make karate safer for Japanese School students to practice. All part of making the "jutsu" into a "do".
On the other hand, years of practicing these low stances can do wonders for your leg conditioning, not to mention the wonderful base developed.
Mal
In most of the pictures of Funakoshi Sensei that I have seen, he is demonstrating technique from a quite natural-stance.
I don't know if it is correct, but I have heard that many traditional Okinawan stances (which are natural, not too deep) were lowered to slow down the action, to make karate safer for Japanese School students to practice. All part of making the "jutsu" into a "do".
On the other hand, years of practicing these low stances can do wonders for your leg conditioning, not to mention the wonderful base developed.
Mal
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Allen M.
Shotokans deep stances!
Here's another angle:
Although knee pain can manifest itself while holding a deep stance for a period of time, this may not be the cause.
Often knee problems that develop in deep-stanced styles occur because of stresses imposed upon the knee joints due to pivoting 90 degrees, and especially 180 degrees, where the supporting leg is regularly requested to accept large amount of torque, especially if the heel is not lifted up early enough or the floor sticks to the ball of the foot during a pivot. Floors with thick soft mats have also been known to hold on to too much torque for too long, causing injuries, as well. Also, the angle of the feet with respect to the rest of the torso is important to minimize the forces on the knees.
I offer the above paragraphs from a lot of empirical experience watching others plus a few screw-ups in my day.
If you continue the deep stances, figure how to relieve the stress off the knees earlier in your pivots, plus see a doctor.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Although knee pain can manifest itself while holding a deep stance for a period of time, this may not be the cause.
Often knee problems that develop in deep-stanced styles occur because of stresses imposed upon the knee joints due to pivoting 90 degrees, and especially 180 degrees, where the supporting leg is regularly requested to accept large amount of torque, especially if the heel is not lifted up early enough or the floor sticks to the ball of the foot during a pivot. Floors with thick soft mats have also been known to hold on to too much torque for too long, causing injuries, as well. Also, the angle of the feet with respect to the rest of the torso is important to minimize the forces on the knees.
I offer the above paragraphs from a lot of empirical experience watching others plus a few screw-ups in my day.
If you continue the deep stances, figure how to relieve the stress off the knees earlier in your pivots, plus see a doctor.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Stryke
Shotokans deep stances!
Hi there , im a Shotokan practitioner myself and thought id add a few comments.
1) firstly is it the stance ? , make sure you have no underlying injuries , this I suspect is probably the cause
2) hows your flexibility ? , it can be awkward to really sit into the stances if your struggling with your flexibility , if possible you should relax and really drop your weight into the stance , ive found this greatly loosens tension into the joints
oh yes ? what about kiba dachi ? , if you can handle a low shotokan kiba dachi then you shouldnt have too much trouble with kokutsu dachi.
3) is it a strength conditioning problem ? , it does take a while to get used to the low stances (i dont think one really ever finds them easy
) . if so bring em down gradually .
BIGGEST POINT , talk to your sensei , hell understand the stances and wont want you to injure yourself .
please dont give up on the deep stances , they have real benifit , but do it smart , Karate is about self improvement not self distruction , if it causes damage its not karate training .
Anyone doing shotokan always knows when he has a knee problem , if its an injury rest it , do em hi discuss it with your sensei , Ive found weight and flexibility training greatly reduced the pressure on my joints ,but first make sure theres no underlying damage .
hope this gives you some ideas , just a few thoughts , i love the stances even though there hard sometimes .
all the best
Stryke
1) firstly is it the stance ? , make sure you have no underlying injuries , this I suspect is probably the cause
2) hows your flexibility ? , it can be awkward to really sit into the stances if your struggling with your flexibility , if possible you should relax and really drop your weight into the stance , ive found this greatly loosens tension into the joints
oh yes ? what about kiba dachi ? , if you can handle a low shotokan kiba dachi then you shouldnt have too much trouble with kokutsu dachi.
3) is it a strength conditioning problem ? , it does take a while to get used to the low stances (i dont think one really ever finds them easy
) . if so bring em down gradually . BIGGEST POINT , talk to your sensei , hell understand the stances and wont want you to injure yourself .
please dont give up on the deep stances , they have real benifit , but do it smart , Karate is about self improvement not self distruction , if it causes damage its not karate training .
Anyone doing shotokan always knows when he has a knee problem , if its an injury rest it , do em hi discuss it with your sensei , Ive found weight and flexibility training greatly reduced the pressure on my joints ,but first make sure theres no underlying damage .
hope this gives you some ideas , just a few thoughts , i love the stances even though there hard sometimes .
all the best
Stryke
Shotokans deep stances!
Everyone,
First the deep stances developed in Japan's development of Shotokan for the physical training benefits they offered karate as a system of physical development. Harry Cook's recent book "Shotokan Karate a Precise History" gives great detail into the system's changes and reasons for same.
Second, regardless of what you read, simply believing higher stances are faster can be a mistake. Once up on a time, a friend I had from tournaments who was a Shotokan practitioner (and a damn good one) took a discussion to stances. I repeated the fact Isshinryu (and all Okinawan karate) was better because our higher stances allowed us to move faster.
The gentleman looked at me, smiled and exploded his right foot back into a deep zenkatsu dachi, and the second he did so then proceeded to put his right foot into my mouth with a maegeri (front kick).
The lesson took.
Obviously it is how intense you train and can execute which matters most. Where Shotokan developed deeper stances compared with much of the stance work of the Northern Chinese systems it's positively high. All of course is just a matter of degree.
I believe in the logic of the Okinawan systems stances, but I also understand that alone is not the important issue.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
First the deep stances developed in Japan's development of Shotokan for the physical training benefits they offered karate as a system of physical development. Harry Cook's recent book "Shotokan Karate a Precise History" gives great detail into the system's changes and reasons for same.
Second, regardless of what you read, simply believing higher stances are faster can be a mistake. Once up on a time, a friend I had from tournaments who was a Shotokan practitioner (and a damn good one) took a discussion to stances. I repeated the fact Isshinryu (and all Okinawan karate) was better because our higher stances allowed us to move faster.
The gentleman looked at me, smiled and exploded his right foot back into a deep zenkatsu dachi, and the second he did so then proceeded to put his right foot into my mouth with a maegeri (front kick).
The lesson took.
Obviously it is how intense you train and can execute which matters most. Where Shotokan developed deeper stances compared with much of the stance work of the Northern Chinese systems it's positively high. All of course is just a matter of degree.
I believe in the logic of the Okinawan systems stances, but I also understand that alone is not the important issue.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Shotokans deep stances!
One concern I would have regarding knee pain in the stance you mention later is hyperflexion of the knee or a slight motion out of alignment with the knee to thigh to foot position that is causing pressure on either the inner or outer tendons of the knee.
Having had to correct this problem myself when I was younger (back before you were born), it is a not too uncommon error, but one that is sometimes difficult to spot because it only takes a few millimeters' shift to cause discomfort, especially when holding the stance for extended periods.
Just a thought, but try the stance for your Sensei while wearing swim trunks. Then, try moving the position of the knee SLIGHTLY to either the outside, inside or re-positioning your supporting foot to give a stronger angle of support.
This literally saved me from blowing out my left knee when I was yonkyu.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moobrack:
Hello all,
I am 14,my name is Anthony and I am from Leeds England.I have studied shotokan karate-do for 3-4 years and am currently taking my shodan examination and coaching test.I wanted to post a thread about the deepest stances in any for of karate. I think that shotokan has frighteningly deep stances. Don't get me wrong I love them but they hurt my legs.Any ideas on how to improve.Thanx.
Oh this might help
I am 6'2
I weigh 10st 2lbs
Thanx all<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Having had to correct this problem myself when I was younger (back before you were born), it is a not too uncommon error, but one that is sometimes difficult to spot because it only takes a few millimeters' shift to cause discomfort, especially when holding the stance for extended periods.
Just a thought, but try the stance for your Sensei while wearing swim trunks. Then, try moving the position of the knee SLIGHTLY to either the outside, inside or re-positioning your supporting foot to give a stronger angle of support.
This literally saved me from blowing out my left knee when I was yonkyu.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moobrack:
Hello all,
I am 14,my name is Anthony and I am from Leeds England.I have studied shotokan karate-do for 3-4 years and am currently taking my shodan examination and coaching test.I wanted to post a thread about the deepest stances in any for of karate. I think that shotokan has frighteningly deep stances. Don't get me wrong I love them but they hurt my legs.Any ideas on how to improve.Thanx.
Oh this might help
I am 6'2
I weigh 10st 2lbs
Thanx all<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Shotokans deep stances!
It appears everyone is touching on important points. Obviously after a bit, the important thing to do is evaluate the specific individual.
There is one other important thing to consider here. The individual is 14 years old, 6'2", and weighs 142 pounds. I would say he just got through a major growth spurt. Among other things, we may be witnessing a bit of Osgood Schlatter's disease, a.k.a. growing pains.
I might consider getting this kid into the weight room to work on leg strength. He needs to develop into that frame he just grew. As a start, I would work on some leg extensions and leg curls. Over time, I would then work him into some squats where I would mostly be teaching him good form. Throw in a little PNF stretching, and I think you may find that many of the problems in the karate class would take care of themselves with a decent instructor.
Anyhow, I thought that was worth mentioning.
- Bill
There is one other important thing to consider here. The individual is 14 years old, 6'2", and weighs 142 pounds. I would say he just got through a major growth spurt. Among other things, we may be witnessing a bit of Osgood Schlatter's disease, a.k.a. growing pains.
I might consider getting this kid into the weight room to work on leg strength. He needs to develop into that frame he just grew. As a start, I would work on some leg extensions and leg curls. Over time, I would then work him into some squats where I would mostly be teaching him good form. Throw in a little PNF stretching, and I think you may find that many of the problems in the karate class would take care of themselves with a decent instructor.
Anyhow, I thought that was worth mentioning.
- Bill
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gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Shotokans deep stances!
I had an interesting conversation with David Finkelstien yesterday. Dave has had both his hips replaced 2 or 3 times and I called because in the past few weeks I had conversations with people who are contemplating this surgery. (Dave highly recommends it btw.)
While talking, the conversation turned to "growth spurts" and Dave said one of his doctors attribute many back injuries and joint problems to this growth phenomenon. Apparently, according to this doctor, tendons do not grow as fast as bones, leaving the rapid growing youth with highly stretched, tight tendons.
While in this condition, joints and other parts of one's body are highly susceptible to fractures and damage which result in future back and joint problems.
Naturally, kids who play contact sports while in a growth spurt or following one, must be very careful of injuring themselves.
I'm sure Bill will fill us in on this condition, if indeed such a condition actually exists.
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GEM
While talking, the conversation turned to "growth spurts" and Dave said one of his doctors attribute many back injuries and joint problems to this growth phenomenon. Apparently, according to this doctor, tendons do not grow as fast as bones, leaving the rapid growing youth with highly stretched, tight tendons.
While in this condition, joints and other parts of one's body are highly susceptible to fractures and damage which result in future back and joint problems.
Naturally, kids who play contact sports while in a growth spurt or following one, must be very careful of injuring themselves.
I'm sure Bill will fill us in on this condition, if indeed such a condition actually exists.
------------------
GEM
Shotokans deep stances!
Excellent post, Mattson Shihan!
One other thing any of you who teach teens and younger children might want to look out for are the bicyclists.
While this sounds strange, a sudden growth spurt can wreak havoc to a kid who rides regularly.
How? When a kid grows more than an inch or so in the space of a month or so, they need to readjust the seat and handlebars of their bicycle or risk catching a toe in the pavement and doing a forward flip with an attached bicycle.
I did this twice while growing up - once before any serious MA training - accident cost me a chipped tooth, root canal for same, serious contusions on the face and chin and, because the foot got caught in the pedal, I almost severed my right Achilles tendon.
Second time, I did a perfect forward ukemi and came up standing - from a speed of almost 25mph! Damage - scraped shoulder from road gravel and a bruised ego (my girlfriend was riding beside me).
I learned the hard way - why should anyone else?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
One other thing any of you who teach teens and younger children might want to look out for are the bicyclists.
While this sounds strange, a sudden growth spurt can wreak havoc to a kid who rides regularly.
How? When a kid grows more than an inch or so in the space of a month or so, they need to readjust the seat and handlebars of their bicycle or risk catching a toe in the pavement and doing a forward flip with an attached bicycle.
I did this twice while growing up - once before any serious MA training - accident cost me a chipped tooth, root canal for same, serious contusions on the face and chin and, because the foot got caught in the pedal, I almost severed my right Achilles tendon.
Second time, I did a perfect forward ukemi and came up standing - from a speed of almost 25mph! Damage - scraped shoulder from road gravel and a bruised ego (my girlfriend was riding beside me).
I learned the hard way - why should anyone else?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Shotokans deep stances!
George
Dave is an interesting enigma of nature. We may never know exactly why he had the joint issues he did. However I remember him and his struggles way back when I first started working out with him in 1977. I don't know what to make of it other than the fact that he had terrible flexibility (in some degrees of freedom of motion) and odd joint problems (particularly with the hips). What I do remember though is that he could move across the room much faster than I could with my healthy hips.
From what I know about the "growing pains" phenomenon, it mostly tends to settle out once the growing stops. I agree with your comment though about there being a risk of injury during this phase. I think this is a reason why many folks preach against kids doing certain types of athletic activity until growing ceases. But to some extent, this is like trying to keep a kitten in a box so it can heal from an injury.
This is often where a good trainer, MD, coach, or instructor can help an individual along. Recognizing a problem like this can be a first step to getting someone the special training they need to get the body back in balance again.
- Bill
Dave is an interesting enigma of nature. We may never know exactly why he had the joint issues he did. However I remember him and his struggles way back when I first started working out with him in 1977. I don't know what to make of it other than the fact that he had terrible flexibility (in some degrees of freedom of motion) and odd joint problems (particularly with the hips). What I do remember though is that he could move across the room much faster than I could with my healthy hips.
From what I know about the "growing pains" phenomenon, it mostly tends to settle out once the growing stops. I agree with your comment though about there being a risk of injury during this phase. I think this is a reason why many folks preach against kids doing certain types of athletic activity until growing ceases. But to some extent, this is like trying to keep a kitten in a box so it can heal from an injury.
This is often where a good trainer, MD, coach, or instructor can help an individual along. Recognizing a problem like this can be a first step to getting someone the special training they need to get the body back in balance again.
- Bill
