Side kicks?
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Side kicks?
I train with two different dojo's and they teach sidekicks differently. Could you please tell me how you teach sidekicks because it is really confusing. Thanks
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Side kicks?
There is an inherent risk of confusion when training in two different schools at once. Are the dojos of the same style? Are there two different sets of grading requirements? Will someone become upset if you ask them to explain the difference between the methods?
There is a range of kicks that fall under the heading "Side Kick." The purpose/target/circumstance would dictate the technique. A particular style or school will tend to isolate a specific set of characteristics for their basic technique. These characteristics are what will be judged in a grading situation.
My instructor and his instructor are very different body types. Each has his prefered side kick based on what works for him, but there are two basic side kicks taught in our school as standards. They actually represent each end of the spectrum. These are required on testing day when the basics are called.
When I am confused by the difference between the individual methods of my teachers, I ask them (when they are both present, if possible) to please clarify what it is they are going to be looking for and why.
It sounds, Maygan, as though you may have a more difficult time with this since there are two dojos involved. Good Luck.
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ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited November 15, 2001).]
There is a range of kicks that fall under the heading "Side Kick." The purpose/target/circumstance would dictate the technique. A particular style or school will tend to isolate a specific set of characteristics for their basic technique. These characteristics are what will be judged in a grading situation.
My instructor and his instructor are very different body types. Each has his prefered side kick based on what works for him, but there are two basic side kicks taught in our school as standards. They actually represent each end of the spectrum. These are required on testing day when the basics are called.
When I am confused by the difference between the individual methods of my teachers, I ask them (when they are both present, if possible) to please clarify what it is they are going to be looking for and why.
It sounds, Maygan, as though you may have a more difficult time with this since there are two dojos involved. Good Luck.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited November 15, 2001).]
Side kicks?
Maygan: I'm willing to wager you have a preference. That's good! If so, here's my suggestion:
Describe the differences to us, in this forum, and tell us what's wrong with the one you don't like. Tell us about the different skeletal structures when doing these moves as simply as you can, where's the back and foot position etc.. Keep it simple, a few lines, but try to be complete.
If this is off track, and you are truly confused, then I would say that studying many different styles is a lot of fun but you will have these junctures and you will, I am afraid, have to reconcile the differences by learning the movements in both styles as well as you can. The best you can do is to get into the movements when you do them, in other words, be the movement. Try not to let you mind drift.
Most styles evolve forms from a consistent central internal cohesive structure. Once you understand that, any external movements are possible. The trick is to crack the nut from the inside. However, doing that takes time and hard practice. In the hard styles, that means developing strong focused movement. At some point, however, the movements should coalesce for you.
You can often 'help' the internal side along if you can verbalize the problems. If you cannot and this is all meaningless, don't despair, it isn't all that important. However, in all cases, do keep working hard and I would suggest putting less emphasis into the why's. Just do your best, train hard and I guarantee it'll sort itself out for you. Everyone learns differently. Also, bear in mind that both styles have merit but probably coming from different angles. It's a big puzzle you will have a lifetime to explore and figure it out. Isn't it exciting!
I hope this helps. Good luck! Phil
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited November 15, 2001).]
Describe the differences to us, in this forum, and tell us what's wrong with the one you don't like. Tell us about the different skeletal structures when doing these moves as simply as you can, where's the back and foot position etc.. Keep it simple, a few lines, but try to be complete.
If this is off track, and you are truly confused, then I would say that studying many different styles is a lot of fun but you will have these junctures and you will, I am afraid, have to reconcile the differences by learning the movements in both styles as well as you can. The best you can do is to get into the movements when you do them, in other words, be the movement. Try not to let you mind drift.
Most styles evolve forms from a consistent central internal cohesive structure. Once you understand that, any external movements are possible. The trick is to crack the nut from the inside. However, doing that takes time and hard practice. In the hard styles, that means developing strong focused movement. At some point, however, the movements should coalesce for you.
You can often 'help' the internal side along if you can verbalize the problems. If you cannot and this is all meaningless, don't despair, it isn't all that important. However, in all cases, do keep working hard and I would suggest putting less emphasis into the why's. Just do your best, train hard and I guarantee it'll sort itself out for you. Everyone learns differently. Also, bear in mind that both styles have merit but probably coming from different angles. It's a big puzzle you will have a lifetime to explore and figure it out. Isn't it exciting!
I hope this helps. Good luck! Phil
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited November 15, 2001).]
Side kicks?
In one the foot actually faces down instead of going across and in the other the foot is horizontal.
Side kicks?
Maygan: You mean the blade edge of the foot (is pointed down versus horizontal)? What angle of direction is the thrust (how high off the ground) and is there a post position before the thrust? Lastly, does the torso move at all, as you thrust? Phil
Side kicks?
I don't train Uechi-ryu I train Seikukan the other is a different style my sensei told me to train with them if I wanted the extra practise so I have been but sometimes I get confused
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Allen M.
Side kicks?
Hello Maygan.
The martial arts world out there consists of a complete spectrum of sidekicks, each different type for different purposes and a different application of power, etc. Find out from each of your instructors the purpose of his side kick, the target to aim at, and how to get the most power attacking that particular target. That knowledge will go a long way to help unconfuse you.
If the following is any comfort to you, I found through the years of being one that less than one out of 20 Korean stylists know how to do their sidekick properly [or even have a clue], a staple of those systems. Approximately the same ratio of those stylists' instructors know how to teach it.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
The martial arts world out there consists of a complete spectrum of sidekicks, each different type for different purposes and a different application of power, etc. Find out from each of your instructors the purpose of his side kick, the target to aim at, and how to get the most power attacking that particular target. That knowledge will go a long way to help unconfuse you.
If the following is any comfort to you, I found through the years of being one that less than one out of 20 Korean stylists know how to do their sidekick properly [or even have a clue], a staple of those systems. Approximately the same ratio of those stylists' instructors know how to teach it.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Side kicks?
Tomayto, Tomahto.
Is it really confusion or is it just variety?
In Uechi we're taught to do the upward elbow with hand in hiraken pointed forward, for an implied doward strike. Most other stylists kind of run their hand through their hair executing this elbow. Is either one wrong? The trick is to find a school where people realize that while they may have been taught one way and prefer one way, another way isn't wrong, and two ways is fine. Just think about the differences and figure out if they're genuinely important or just icing, and if important, figure out whether you like one better or whether both have their places.
It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Concentrate on the finger, and you miss all that heavenly glory. ;0)
Is it really confusion or is it just variety?
In Uechi we're taught to do the upward elbow with hand in hiraken pointed forward, for an implied doward strike. Most other stylists kind of run their hand through their hair executing this elbow. Is either one wrong? The trick is to find a school where people realize that while they may have been taught one way and prefer one way, another way isn't wrong, and two ways is fine. Just think about the differences and figure out if they're genuinely important or just icing, and if important, figure out whether you like one better or whether both have their places.
It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Concentrate on the finger, and you miss all that heavenly glory. ;0)
Side kicks?
"I found through the years of being one that less than one out of 20 Korean stylists know how to do their sidekick properly [or even have a clue], a staple of those systems."
Were you at a university "TKD" gym/daycare? Were they jr. belts?
Were you at a university "TKD" gym/daycare? Were they jr. belts?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Side kicks?
Maygan
To start with, it might be helpful if you told us the styles of the two schools. Are they both Uechi Ryu? If not, then that may be part of the issue.
We Uechi folk actually have lousy vocabulary when it comes to describing the "side" kick. If you look at the kata, there's only one (Kanshiwa) that has this type of kick. It's the same one in the hojoundo. The Japanese name for this kick is sokuto geri. This does NOT translate as side kick. Soku-to translates as foot-blade, just as shu-to translates as hand-blade. If you analyze the mechanics, you will find that it's really a variation of the shomen geri, or front kick. The only difference is that you are kicking with the blade of the foot rather than the ball of the foot, the big toe, or the heel. Other than that, all 4 are essentially the exact same kick. One telltale way to identify all these kicks is to examine the action of the pelvis. In classic Uechi ryu (done correctly...) one may rotate the pelvis while doing sokuto geri, but one should not tilt the pelvis. Watch the plane of the obi (karate belt) loop that goes around the waist. That plane should stay horizontal (more or less) if the person does a waist level kick.
Because sokuto geri is about the striking surface of the foot, one can apply it in a number of different ways. Generally speaking, the blade of the foot is not parallel to the floor unless the person has freakish range of motion in the hip socket. Practically speaking it has roughly a 45-degree angle. Its best use - in my opinion - is in the femoral crease (where the fold is between the leg and the abdomen). The angle of right foot vs. opponent's right femoral crease - or vice versa - matches perfectly. A shot there will stop an opponent and/or cause a reflexive contraction of the hip flexor muscles (buckling of the hip joint). This breaks the center, and causes the opponent's head to jut forward. It's also very useful as a shot to the back of the knee, where it causes a reflexive contraction of the hamstring (buckling of the leg).
The term yoko geri, translating literally as side kick, generally refers to a class of kicks that require a pelvic tilt to execute. Some beginners in Uechi ryu attempt to do a sokuto geri by tilting the pelvis like a yoko geri, but this is incorrect. The yoko geri may or may not involve leaning back, depending on whether the practitioner has enough control of the waist to counteract the action of the pelvis in order to keep the hands in play. In some cases, the practitioner may actually intentionally lean back to fall out of the way of an attack while executing the yoko geri.
This kick is much more powerful than the Uechi foot blade kick, primarily because the pelvic tilt allows one to recruit the gluteus (butt) muscle. A decent practitioner should be able to break ribs, damage the kidney, or incapacitate the practitioner by over-stimulating the solar plexus. High yoko geri may look great on a magazine cover and work well in a Taequondo tournament (where the rules prevent leg grabbing, leg kicking, and groin shots), but they aren't advisable on the street. Nevertheless, a yoko geri can be a knockout shot (or worse) if applied to the neck or just under the jaw. Since the term yoko geri implies the direction the kick is thrust rather than the action of the foot, the striking surface is a matter of personal choice. Some folks hit with the foot blade, whereas others hit with the heel.
What differentiates the two kicks then is the action of the pelvis. To some extent, this also controls the orientation of the foot blade, as it is almost impossible to have the blade horizontal to the floor in the Uechi Ryu kick.
The one spot where I believe there is confusion in Uechi Ryu is Kyu Kumite number 4. Some people tilt the pelvis to get a stronger shot and/or get the foot parallel (I do...) whereas others just throw the classic Uechi sokuto geri.
Does that help?
- Bill
To start with, it might be helpful if you told us the styles of the two schools. Are they both Uechi Ryu? If not, then that may be part of the issue.
We Uechi folk actually have lousy vocabulary when it comes to describing the "side" kick. If you look at the kata, there's only one (Kanshiwa) that has this type of kick. It's the same one in the hojoundo. The Japanese name for this kick is sokuto geri. This does NOT translate as side kick. Soku-to translates as foot-blade, just as shu-to translates as hand-blade. If you analyze the mechanics, you will find that it's really a variation of the shomen geri, or front kick. The only difference is that you are kicking with the blade of the foot rather than the ball of the foot, the big toe, or the heel. Other than that, all 4 are essentially the exact same kick. One telltale way to identify all these kicks is to examine the action of the pelvis. In classic Uechi ryu (done correctly...) one may rotate the pelvis while doing sokuto geri, but one should not tilt the pelvis. Watch the plane of the obi (karate belt) loop that goes around the waist. That plane should stay horizontal (more or less) if the person does a waist level kick.
Because sokuto geri is about the striking surface of the foot, one can apply it in a number of different ways. Generally speaking, the blade of the foot is not parallel to the floor unless the person has freakish range of motion in the hip socket. Practically speaking it has roughly a 45-degree angle. Its best use - in my opinion - is in the femoral crease (where the fold is between the leg and the abdomen). The angle of right foot vs. opponent's right femoral crease - or vice versa - matches perfectly. A shot there will stop an opponent and/or cause a reflexive contraction of the hip flexor muscles (buckling of the hip joint). This breaks the center, and causes the opponent's head to jut forward. It's also very useful as a shot to the back of the knee, where it causes a reflexive contraction of the hamstring (buckling of the leg).
The term yoko geri, translating literally as side kick, generally refers to a class of kicks that require a pelvic tilt to execute. Some beginners in Uechi ryu attempt to do a sokuto geri by tilting the pelvis like a yoko geri, but this is incorrect. The yoko geri may or may not involve leaning back, depending on whether the practitioner has enough control of the waist to counteract the action of the pelvis in order to keep the hands in play. In some cases, the practitioner may actually intentionally lean back to fall out of the way of an attack while executing the yoko geri.
This kick is much more powerful than the Uechi foot blade kick, primarily because the pelvic tilt allows one to recruit the gluteus (butt) muscle. A decent practitioner should be able to break ribs, damage the kidney, or incapacitate the practitioner by over-stimulating the solar plexus. High yoko geri may look great on a magazine cover and work well in a Taequondo tournament (where the rules prevent leg grabbing, leg kicking, and groin shots), but they aren't advisable on the street. Nevertheless, a yoko geri can be a knockout shot (or worse) if applied to the neck or just under the jaw. Since the term yoko geri implies the direction the kick is thrust rather than the action of the foot, the striking surface is a matter of personal choice. Some folks hit with the foot blade, whereas others hit with the heel.
What differentiates the two kicks then is the action of the pelvis. To some extent, this also controls the orientation of the foot blade, as it is almost impossible to have the blade horizontal to the floor in the Uechi Ryu kick.
The one spot where I believe there is confusion in Uechi Ryu is Kyu Kumite number 4. Some people tilt the pelvis to get a stronger shot and/or get the foot parallel (I do...) whereas others just throw the classic Uechi sokuto geri.
Does that help?
- Bill
-
Allen M.
Side kicks?
Hello TSDGuy,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
If, reader, you are slow now to believe what I shall tell, that is no cause for wonder, For I who saw it hardly can accept it.''<font color=red>
Dante Alighieri, Inferno, Canto XXV.</font>
<hr>
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Actually, out of the over a dozen dojang I attended, at times I often felt I was, and often cringed watching dan candidates and above. Those who reach a rigororous 2nd to 3rd dan level where the air is thin, usually smoothe out fairly well but I've taken some so-called advanced practitioners to the side on this one. [Actually, the Jr. belts, meaning the kids, often had a much better handle on body mechanics than did adults] One of my favorite quotes came to mind as I wrote what I wrote:Were you at a university "TKD" gym/daycare? Were they jr. belts?
If, reader, you are slow now to believe what I shall tell, that is no cause for wonder, For I who saw it hardly can accept it.''<font color=red>
Dante Alighieri, Inferno, Canto XXV.</font>
<hr>
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Side kicks?
How many times have I been to a demonstration in the last few years to see sloppy technique and people MISSING the board in a breaking demo, I can't even begin to count.
At one demo, a 5th dan TKD instructor actually missed the board THREE times and, on one of the misses, smashed into the finger of the fellow holding the board, drawing blood from the injured finger!
And the kick was only at the level of the obi, not a high-line attack, so, IMHO, there was NO excuse for that kind of sloppiness.
Needless to say, my opinion of that dojo and that instructor in particular is not very high.
In the form of Shorin-ryu that I studied, the side kick is more of a heel kick, instep parallel to the floor than a knife edge strike. My Sensei explained that HIS teacher taught it that way because in a match, his opponent had blocked the more traditional foot-edge kick with an elbow, breaking his foot! His reasoning was that hitting an elbow with your heel was safer and actually allowed him to deliver considerably more force.
This may not be mainstream Shorin-ryu, but it certainly worked for me for a lot of years.
Just my 2 cent's worth.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret. sort of)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TSDguy:
"I found through the years of being one that less than one out of 20 Korean stylists know how to do their sidekick properly [or even have a clue], a staple of those systems."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At one demo, a 5th dan TKD instructor actually missed the board THREE times and, on one of the misses, smashed into the finger of the fellow holding the board, drawing blood from the injured finger!
And the kick was only at the level of the obi, not a high-line attack, so, IMHO, there was NO excuse for that kind of sloppiness.
Needless to say, my opinion of that dojo and that instructor in particular is not very high.
In the form of Shorin-ryu that I studied, the side kick is more of a heel kick, instep parallel to the floor than a knife edge strike. My Sensei explained that HIS teacher taught it that way because in a match, his opponent had blocked the more traditional foot-edge kick with an elbow, breaking his foot! His reasoning was that hitting an elbow with your heel was safer and actually allowed him to deliver considerably more force.
This may not be mainstream Shorin-ryu, but it certainly worked for me for a lot of years.
Just my 2 cent's worth.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret. sort of)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TSDguy:
"I found through the years of being one that less than one out of 20 Korean stylists know how to do their sidekick properly [or even have a clue], a staple of those systems."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Side kicks?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maygan:
I don't train Uechi-ryu I train Seikukan the other is a different style my sensei told me to train with them if I wanted the extra practise so I have been but sometimes I get confused<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A good friend of mine from college, where we were members of a Shotokan Dojo, was in Grad School at UVa. She was looking for a good strong practice to join there. She was not impressed with the current JKA Shotokan offering (we were SKA) so she approached a certain Uechi-ryu instructor, who had been roundly praised by our instructor. She was told that the two arts were different and her practice would be confused.
"A man cannot have two masters" - unknown
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ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
I don't train Uechi-ryu I train Seikukan the other is a different style my sensei told me to train with them if I wanted the extra practise so I have been but sometimes I get confused<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A good friend of mine from college, where we were members of a Shotokan Dojo, was in Grad School at UVa. She was looking for a good strong practice to join there. She was not impressed with the current JKA Shotokan offering (we were SKA) so she approached a certain Uechi-ryu instructor, who had been roundly praised by our instructor. She was told that the two arts were different and her practice would be confused.
"A man cannot have two masters" - unknown
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
