Fresh Look at Sanchin

[Arnie Elkins]

This is a most fascinating subject! I have long wondered, why, after spending so much time training 'proper' form in kata, kung fu forms, etc., we 'throw it all away' when we spar. 'Why don't people train like they fight?', I used to wonder. It took something completely outside the martial arts world to bring me to the brink of understanding.

Recently I have seen ads for a swing trainer for golfers. I have played golf since I was very young, but have not played much in several years, so my swing is currently less than wonderful. Upon first seeing the ad, I dismissed it right away, because the trainer claims to teach you a 'proper' swing, but it violates the rules of golf, and the swing you train is not the same as the swing you will use on the course. 'Of what value could that possibly be', I said to myself, 'why not train the golf swing the way you swing on the course?'. Well, that was before trying the concept for myself. Not having one of the devices, I improvised, and was able to duplicate the results they claimed for their device. Now, I don't know why it works, or how exactly, but training the way they advertise DOES 'groove' a good golf swing. No, you are not swinging the same way you will swing on the course. As a matter of fact, the trainer forces you to separate your hands as you swing, and then bring them together at impact, an altogether strange thing to behold. However, doing it has convinced me of its value. Somehow this exercise trains the 'muscle memory' we all crave, so that now I can 'feel' a good swing. I took a short 'before and after' video of my swing, and the results, as they say, spoke for themselves.

It is my humble opinion that a kata like Sanchin is doing much the same thing. No, you will probably not fight in Sanchin stance, or ever use a Sanchin strike in self defense. However, the principles taught, and the conditioning, will carry over into other martial endeavors, whether we realize it or not. Do we need to communicate these benefits to new students? Yes, definitely, and those who are much more qualified than I are already attempting to do so. But even as a new student myself, I can see, and feel, the changes in my body from training Sanchin.

Strange how sometimes it takes something seemingly unrelated to make us understand what we have already learned.

Arnie

[Van Canna]

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I have never seen Gushi Sensei, perform...I don't even know who he is, so if you would be so kind.

Evan, Gushi sensei is a Pangainoon practitioner. He has a tape out which can be purchased through the internet.

He has a tremendously strong body in Sanchin.

Shinjio sensei is another with a very powerful/conditioned body. He can be seen in the Okinawan tapes [ also sold through the web] give a very powerful "test" to his brother in Sanchin.

Unbelievable the punishment those conditioned bodies are able to withstand.

The conditioning in Sanchin is an art in itself, and there are specific methods for achieving it.

Joe Graziano, is a Kyoshi under Master Gushi.

Joe, if you are reading this, perhaps you can explain the method Gushi sensei uses to develop the Sanchin armor.

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Van Canna

[Van Canna]

Other very effective "Sanchin armor" methods are practiced in accordance to the old style principles as taught by Toyama sensei, and as reported in these pages in the past,I believe.

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Van Canna

[Evan Pantazi]

Canna Sensei,

I have never seen Gushi Sensei, perform...I don't even know who he is, so if you would be so kind.

I do Sanchin totaslly soft as originally taught me in the form of Saam Chien (Chinese Version), since then I have done the hard Sanchins of Ryukyu, Isshin Ryu and for the last 3 years Uechi. I have personally switched over to a soft Uechi version as it seems to do the most for me of all those mentioned.

How to keep the interest in the Kata?...Break it down in whatever beneficial manor suits each individual. If they want external strength and speed work them with it, if it is attacking scenarios they crave breakdown each move for realistic methods, if they want internal energy work then work them on this aspect. Sanchin in my view contains everything anyone could want or need from meditaional aspects to killing methods. Each individual should be schooled in each aspect as wants and needs will constantly evolve, besides one outlook on anything limits individual growth and creativity. It also excludes an individual as calling the Kata their own! And through this and picking moments in Kumite that they moved like Kata then it will become more real.

As for developing the body armor internally will take longer than most will ever have patience or apptitude for. Body conditioning in the Sanchin Posture will bring the physical idea to light as to it's defensive possibilities. But it must also be explained that it is only one possible route.

We work a hard Sanchin in beginner classes just for this reason, with the idea that it is only a scratch on the surface, and I don't fully teach Sanchin until Nidan as then the true appreciation will be realized.

Paul San,

...and his career is at an end as he never grew past a limited mindset. Some only think they can grow by bashing what they themselves never took the time to work through and understand. Bruce Lee made it as big as he did because the culture and times were all about rebellion against any system...it has brought with it many problems, socially as well as standards wise.


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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

[This message has been edited by Evan Pantazi (edited November 25, 2001).]

[Phils]

It's difficult to understand the meaning of concepts of body unity in different styles but my guess about the turned foot position(after a long absence but easing into Sanchin stance at lunch today) is that it eases one's weight back onto the rear leg and seems to automatically put the hip into the proper 'cradle' alignment.

Anyway, my guess is that it has to do with maintaining a curved line, like a bow, with the knee being the mid-point and connecting the waist. The concept of bows is that they (leg bow, arm bow, torso, etc) develop interdependently, and only with the torso kept vertical do they operate together in order to transmit energy without interuption.

I also believe it has to do with translating circular rotation from the feet upward, a cork-screw motion.

[Bill Glasheen]

Gentlemen

This discussion has taken many thought-provoking twists and turns.

I have been sitting on the sidelines with the Richard McEnvoy posts. This gentleman obviously has much experience with and knowledge of his sanchin. However, like Evan, he often speaks in a language that I acknowledge without entirely embracing. My perspective is of course that of the Western educated martial artist with a foundation in Western as opposed to older Eastern medicine. Interesting...I find myself listening to what they say, visualizing and mentally experiencing it, and translating it into a paradigm I am familiar with. Usually it works; good technique is good technique, no matter what paradigm you use to visualize it.

Even from my perspective though it's important to attempt to think like the choreographer. As a perfectly obedient disciple, we do as we are told and then rationalize why it is right. But if you listen to reasons why things were done at the time in which the practice started, it can shed important light on the relevance of a particular practice in light of a broader knowledge base. This is the approach of the classic anthropologist turned pragmatist.

Now...on to Van's diversion.

Very interesting comments, gentlemen. Very good (and productive) technique, Van.

I have a handful of isolated observations to add to the discussion.

* I really like the music analogy. When I was younger, I studied (and loved) the piano. My piano teacher had many approaches that he used to prepare me for...something. That could have been anything from playing classical pieces in a concert hall to composing jazz music to playing simple Christmas carols for my future progeny. Some of my training involved playing classical pieces. But as Paul alluded to in his "Chopsticks" analogy, there were often exercises (scales, etudes) that I was often made to play that had no other function other than to improve my technical ability. In the beginning, these were quite simple. But even these scales and other studies became quite complex and difficult with time. And - believe it or not - many of them forced you to switch hands in the middle of the piece (left hand suddenly carried the melody while the right carried the chord progressions). Later on when I taught myself how to play guitar (mostly by ear), I would often encounter some pieces that were initially too difficult for my hands to play. In particular, I can remember the opening of the Yes song Roundabout. In order to become competent at one rift about a minute into the piece, it was necessary for me to compose a circular "ditty" that played those difficult few phrases over and over again. I started off slowly, and built up both my timing and speed. When it became possible to play the piece, I shed the ditty. But the concept of choreographing simple exercises to work on my fundamentals became a constant in my practice. It was then that I appreciated what my piano teacher was attempting to do with me. If I had stuck with the piano, I'm sure I would have forced myself to play more and more complicated pieces (by ear... ) that would have gotten me composing my own etudes, if not digging up ones that the classic composers came up with. When you listen to some of the better musicians today, it's VERY obvious (to me...) which ones had that classical training.

* Along those same lines, I have grown to admire a local marksman that has taught me (a little) and Rich (a lot). Every course I have taken with this man - from beginners to advanced - I spend about a third of my time "dry firing" my weapon. There are other exercises that this man teaches that he recommends people take home and practice over and over again (like drawing and firing a weapon from a holster while wearing an overcoat). And how good is this man? Very good. Once a prosecuting attorney tried to lay charges on a man who shot another with his shotgun. Apparently the belligerent (not the defendant) was yelling and screaming at some distance (70 yards or so...) while waving a handgun. The prosecuting attorney claimed the man shouldn't have shot the wielder of the handgun, as he was in no danger at that distance. In comes our gun instructor as expert witness with videotape. On the tape, he recorded himself shooting a metal target the size of a man's chest at 200 yards. The audio goes POW ....... clink, POW ....... clink, POW ....... clink, one round after the next. Unbelievable! "So," you might ask "what does this have to do with Sanchin?" Well I thought you'd never ask... Every morning as this man waits for his coffee to brew, he "dry fires" one of the handguns in his arsenal. He starts with both hands in the classic pose. Then he fires with a single hand - eventually on both sides. If you ever take the time to listen to a man like this explain the physics and human kinesiology of firing a handgun, you can appreciate why these exercises are so important. Click ...... click ...... click ....... And you know what? Not a single round is expended with these exercises. Not a single bad guy is confronted. Meanwhile, this gentleman has plenty of bad guy stories to tell that would leave you to believe he knows what he is doing.

* Over the Thanksgiving holidays, I got a chance to visit relatives and spend time with them over a pool table. I almost never play pool, and hadn't shot a game in at least 3 years. But interestingly enough, I notice I don't lose anything from opportunity to opportunity. Same thing happens with my batting skills whenever I make it to a batting cage. What was once a life passion (baseball) is now a once every few years diversion. But I can still hit a baseball halfway decently. Why??? Well when you consider I spend a lot of time teaching and practicing athletic fundamentals, when you consider that I'm never too far from a weight room and my weight routines have been getting lighter but much more complex with time, it all makes sense. As for fighting...well one quickly realizes that there are only so many opportunities to do "the real thing." Furthermore, even the very best must limit his/her exposure to real confrontations. Dying isn't a very good way to make a living (with apologies to Clint Eastwood). And most of us frankly don't have time to compete, particularly past a certain age. And yet when I do get a chance to spar, I realize I haven't lost all that much. In some ways, I get better even after long lapses away from freeform or scenario work. Cool!

* I think Van touched on something very important here. The truth is that most people don't know how to teach well - even those that are classically trained. I've said for years that I don't believe you can do Sanchin (or other similar exercise) in autopilot and expect to get a lot in the way of results. My appreciation for what it's about comes whenever I need to teach a very difficult or complex technique. I first sit and watch my students really stink the dojo up with their attempts. Then I say to myself 'What is it going to take to help this person do that move???' Inevitably I will take a move (or series of movements) and break them down to the most fundamental components. I have the students practice these very fundamental pieces and parts. Then I add layer upon layer of "texture" and "complexity" to the movement, until they have the original movement that I'm attempting to teach them. And what do you think those fundamental components look like? Often they are hauntingly familiar. I find that when I make these mental connections with the students to these basic components, they suddenly realize that things are much simpler than they originally thought. They suddenly see the connectivity, and the martial "vocabulary" becomes much simpler. And then next time that they practice something like sanchin, it suddenly connects to - and reinforces - another whole new set of synapses in the brain.

Pardon me for waxing verbose.

- Bill

[Phils]

As stated in the original post, many of the principles come from the Tai Chi Classics and they are difficult to relate to and even more difficult to put into action.

The thesis here is that Sanchin entails deeper demands on us involving inner consciousness, body/mind unity, a high degree of physical correctness and attention to detail.

Richard McEvoy makes a compelling case. Sanchin 'reduction to essentials' doesn't mean 'easy' or that we can 'get it' by picking up "Martial Arts for Dummies" or even practicing for years.

I think problem for us is to understand the essentials, not minimize or put them in the ozone level but to make the simple techniques work with no failure or conversely, make them work with a very high degree of confidence, such that abandonment is not an option.

[Joe Graziano]

Interesting discussion.

Gushi sensei uses the basic methods that we are aware of and have been discussed in these forums, e.g., taking a natural and relaxed stance and posture, then tucking and drawing to the center, breathing as necessary - frequently and low capacity so that you can withstand (reasonable) blows at any time, ensuring that the striking arm(s) and shoulder(s) are relaxed, etc.

He also uses tsubo/kame training. (Please see my comments in that thread for devices.) Three steps forward, three back, and two forward can be quite exhausting.

As has been stressed here before but bears repeating, conditioning is not overnight and should be done progressively without abuse or injury.

As we know, diligent and meaningful sanchin practice will make the student fast, powerful, conditioned to withstand blows, and develop a fierce fighting spirit and a focused calm.

[dmsdc]

Phils re-presents the idea of the body as a series of bows.

knees bent for potential energy
hips rotate upward
hips rotate circularly
elbows bent for potential energy
shoulders rotate naturally & relaxed to strike.

and what of the spine?
the spine is an amazing beast -- it can bend and twist in several directions at the same time.

A perfectly straight spine -- with the chin lowered as the head lifts and the hips rotated underneath -- does this represent the best way to create a bow for potential power?

"the chest is empty and the back rounded"

a root principal in chinese internal arts -- Uechi is half chinese internal -- is this one of our principals?
Dana

[Phils]

Even while the thesis is compelling, there's a tendency to flood the mind with disparate thought, particularly when drawing from other styles.

Alternate methods can also be a distraction to correct practice. It's easy to get 'hung-up'. A key for me is one's approach to learning and quality of thought when excercising. If quality of thought isn't there, believe me, nothing is happening. Plenty of folks go through the motion.

For me, the lesson in this discussion is clear; there is deeper internal meaning in classical method, not just philosophical. I believe foot and leg positions are important, if not critical. The have meaning. One needs faith. Hearing people I trust say similar things should reassure us.

I also believe these things in a style are part of the 'package' and to dismiss them or add things to a style, without understanding can be incorrect.

Some people don't need martial arts to protect themselves. Their size or physical gifts are such that they could study knitting and bring down an assailant. For most of us, however, we need the most effective training with the greatest amount of physical advantage and the least amount of distraction. Building character and mental touphness along the way wouldn't hurt !

Therefore, my suggestion is to seek out the living masters in the style. They are here, particularly in Uechi, and you can tell by their instruction. They understand and have confidence in their ability. Listen to them. Before we dismiss what they say, we should consider our own attitude and approach to learning.


[This message has been edited by Phils (edited November 29, 2001).]

[dmsdc]

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Therefore, my suggestion is to seek out the living masters in the style. They are here, particularly in Uechi, and you can tell by their instruction. They understand and have confidence in their ability. Listen to them. Before you dismiss what they say, consider your own attitude and approach to learning.

Phils, please do not imply that I dismiss what my teachers offer me. I train diligently with my teacher. I have trained with his teacher, and with his teacher’s teacher. I have traveled to summer camp to work with those that post on this forum, and the other gifted teachers who are there. I have not asked the mountain to come to Mohammad.

I posted an honest question about Uechi style on a Uechi forum. I understand that the roots of Sanchin were to forge the mettle of the spirit and open the mind by building the body – all with the goal of seeking enlightenment. Whatever enlightenment was, is, or will become for each of us.

I also work with beginning students and I know that Sanchin kata teaches proper (beginning) posture, breathing, balance, movement, patience, diligence, self-reliance, and self-discovery that are all the process of training. And, I am foremost a student of the Socratic method. I will continue to query and question every teacher I can find (as I question myself) on every aspect of my training. I do all of this with the goal of becoming a better practitioner and a better person.

So let us please continue to question, to discuss, to learn, and to grow.

Thanks,
Dana

[Bill Glasheen]

You go, girl!

[tenzenryu]

Hi all

A huge amount of material has been written since my last post on this subject so that I hardly know where to begin in commenting. However, 2 things struck me:

1. Uechi ryu (and presumably related styles such as Goju and Panginoon ryu, Ryuryu ryu etc) have roots in internal Chinese martial arts specifically internal Shaolin styles which in turn share principles with Tai Chi etc.

These principles can be spoken of in many ways both Chinese and Western e.g. I would tend because I have some background in Tai Chi Chuan to use that phraseology because a) it is familiar to me and b) it is more systematically expressed than anything I have come across in Karate literature.

What is more important than terminology however is the ability to learn from a teacher and this does require one to one teaching. Teaching will require a foundation in basic chi gung principles (as Sanchin is in chi gung terms an advanced exercise even if martially it appears simple).

2. Someone mentioned soft v hard Sanchin. Personally I make no distinction. The kata is the same. There are three elements to the production of chi in Sanchin. The first is the mind, then the breath, then the body.

The mind must take full control of every aspect of the body. This must be accompanied by a strong intention and what Bruce Lee called 'emotional content'.

The mind must push the breath and the breath pushes the muscles. This can be done gently or intensively. ONe can emphasise thought or emotional intent or the breath or the muscles or all of them at once.

Try starting Sanchin wholly relaxed then pushing each of the above elements in turn and then all three at once. Do not force the power to come, let it come of itself. You will be amazed how 'hard' your softness is.

Richard

[Bill Glasheen]

Phil

I am not just being flip. Dana is at all the local regionals, and regularly attends Mattson's camps in spite of her Shohei ryu affiliation. She's eager to learn and a joy to work with. Her karate's pretty impressive to boot.

To some that are accustomed to a more Asian or military setting, such questioning may come across as inappropriate. To those who don't know someone like Dana, they may misinterpret her "attitude and approach to learning." To me...I wish I had a dozen students like her. I wish I could steal her. There can be no growth and learning in a style worth studying if there isn't a constant process of active investigation.

Years back, I remember a Doonesbury comic strip where a professor was lecturing to a class. The topic was American history at the time of the revolution, and he made a controversial statement. Students had their heads down, and quietly scribbled away. The professor made another even more inflammatory statement. Students continued with their heads bowed, scribbling away at their notes. Finally he made an outlandish statement with absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever. More heads bowed, more scribbling. One student comments to another "This is starting to get interesting." The professor looks like he's about to cry.

Later on, Doonesbury's kid is in another class with this same professor. The lecturer comments about the irony of selling radar detectors in a society where speeding is illegal. The young Doonesbury speaks up, saying how he thought this was a reasonable libertarian expression in an otherwise oppressive society. Immediately the professor runs to the student, gets on his knees, and tells him it's all right and he shouldn't be afraid. Young Doonesbury turns his head in bewilderment and says "Have I done something wrong?"

Absolutely not. Thank you, Dana. And thanks for all of you that challenge our minds and help us learn.

I'm not admonishing you Phil. I know you're a good guy. I just wanted to fill you in on what I already know about a very fine individual.

- Bill

[dmsdc]

Phils,

No worries. I know that many times what we write is a little incongruous with what we're trying to express.

I enjoy our discussions and look forward to more in the future.

(back to regular programming...)

Dana