All good points "SK". However, for those of us who don't/can't/don't wish to spend the time and energy practicing all the disciplines you have, must be very selective in where they spend allocated time. In these cases, what would you recommend as a single method of self-defense?
How valuable are specialized seminars for people who only practice one style?
Do you believe that a training program in Uechi-ryu can be supplemented with senerio drills and other realistic type practices?
Good post, by the way...
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GEM
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
Moderator: Available
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
I would like to coment on some of the previous post. I do agree with some of the statements, but others I do not agree with. I have studied Uechi-ryu for over ten years, also for the last two years I have been studying graplling along with Uechi. I am studing Machado JJ(Gracie's first cousins) and Judo.
I vivdley remeber watching the first three UFC's. The Gracie's brought in the people who would stepuup and take the challenge and who were qualified. Amoung those people were a Sumo, Dutch Karate & Savate champion a top 5 ranked pro-boxer, pancrease champion, World Ju-Jitsu champio(Remco Pardu) Ron Van Cliff(yes he was older), Kickboxing Champion, Sabaki Full contact Karate Champion, wrestlers, all top CHAMPIONS FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES < ORG< AND STYLES PERIOD!!!!
The Gracies wanted to show that they have a better way of TRAINING Judohas the echniuques as Gracie JJ and so does everyone else, but what seperates GJJ is their focus on positioning and the use of leverage and momentum.
The Gracies did not dominate because they learned a few simple defenses against strikes, the Gracies had been fighting for 75 years constantly refining their techs. Royce Gracie is not even the best Gracie!!! His older brother Rickson is the Famnily Champion.
As for how the tides have shifted andstricking is back in MMA compitiions. It is ONLY because everyone had to go and learn GRACIE JJ and what they were doing that was beating everyone. So theyhad to become better MA and more rounded.
Finnaly, as for self defense it is like the UFC. You must learn how to defend yourself not by STYLE, but by RANGES!!! I take Uechi-Ryu for my kicking/Punching range, I take Akido for simple self defense Tech. & Joint Locks, Judo for their throws & takedowns, Machado Jiu-Jitsu for their grappling submissions and positioning, finnaly I train Sambo for the Leg Locks both standing and on the ground so I am complete. This is supplemented with knife fighting and handgun shooting and takeaway & retention drills. I Want to be complete as possible. YOU CAN NOT DO THIS BY STUDYING STYLES.
PS saying that your style has these things in their "kata" and they are hidden will only help your ego, in order to get better at that range learn from who dominatesd that range, ie-boxers punch better then everyone else. K
I vivdley remeber watching the first three UFC's. The Gracie's brought in the people who would stepuup and take the challenge and who were qualified. Amoung those people were a Sumo, Dutch Karate & Savate champion a top 5 ranked pro-boxer, pancrease champion, World Ju-Jitsu champio(Remco Pardu) Ron Van Cliff(yes he was older), Kickboxing Champion, Sabaki Full contact Karate Champion, wrestlers, all top CHAMPIONS FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES < ORG< AND STYLES PERIOD!!!!
The Gracies wanted to show that they have a better way of TRAINING Judohas the echniuques as Gracie JJ and so does everyone else, but what seperates GJJ is their focus on positioning and the use of leverage and momentum.
The Gracies did not dominate because they learned a few simple defenses against strikes, the Gracies had been fighting for 75 years constantly refining their techs. Royce Gracie is not even the best Gracie!!! His older brother Rickson is the Famnily Champion.
As for how the tides have shifted andstricking is back in MMA compitiions. It is ONLY because everyone had to go and learn GRACIE JJ and what they were doing that was beating everyone. So theyhad to become better MA and more rounded.
Finnaly, as for self defense it is like the UFC. You must learn how to defend yourself not by STYLE, but by RANGES!!! I take Uechi-Ryu for my kicking/Punching range, I take Akido for simple self defense Tech. & Joint Locks, Judo for their throws & takedowns, Machado Jiu-Jitsu for their grappling submissions and positioning, finnaly I train Sambo for the Leg Locks both standing and on the ground so I am complete. This is supplemented with knife fighting and handgun shooting and takeaway & retention drills. I Want to be complete as possible. YOU CAN NOT DO THIS BY STUDYING STYLES.
PS saying that your style has these things in their "kata" and they are hidden will only help your ego, in order to get better at that range learn from who dominatesd that range, ie-boxers punch better then everyone else. K
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Stryke
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
Thanks Special-k , great post , Im coming to this conclusion myself .
A lot of people say to much diversication just does`nt work , my attitude is it`s up to the individual to make it work .
What i do though is define a weakness in my style and look to others for the answers , then ill track down people in the know and get them to teach me the specific apllication ( this is the hard part finding the right people ) .
This to me deffinately isnt training in several arts , I dont have the time , I practice the bits i need and do them how i feel it , using what ive learnt from my style .
Is this training in more than one art ? , I dont really think so , to me its more broadening the base of my own knowledge , expanding on the basic principles my arts taught me . I dont think the masters made the arts to be do this and nothing more , i believe it was a now here`s where id start ...
just a thought
Stryke
PS sensei Mattson i find seminars great if taught by a skilled teacher(didnt say martial artist
) , as long as they are aimed at introducing ideas and concepts rather than teaching all the skills in the world in one day ...
[This message has been edited by Stryke (edited November 29, 2001).]
A lot of people say to much diversication just does`nt work , my attitude is it`s up to the individual to make it work .
What i do though is define a weakness in my style and look to others for the answers , then ill track down people in the know and get them to teach me the specific apllication ( this is the hard part finding the right people ) .
This to me deffinately isnt training in several arts , I dont have the time , I practice the bits i need and do them how i feel it , using what ive learnt from my style .
Is this training in more than one art ? , I dont really think so , to me its more broadening the base of my own knowledge , expanding on the basic principles my arts taught me . I dont think the masters made the arts to be do this and nothing more , i believe it was a now here`s where id start ...
just a thought
Stryke
PS sensei Mattson i find seminars great if taught by a skilled teacher(didnt say martial artist
) , as long as they are aimed at introducing ideas and concepts rather than teaching all the skills in the world in one day ...[This message has been edited by Stryke (edited November 29, 2001).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
Stryke
I agree with your approach. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
To say you can't be complete by studying styles somehow seems at odds with the admiration poured on a family (The Gracies)that focuses on just one. Jiu-jitsu is one of the very, very early Japanese arts, and elements of it are in many of the original Asian arts. I think what really set the Gracies and others like them apart is the execution. Good execution doesn't happen by practicing an art, arts, or non-art(s) in auto-pilot. It happens by having a simple basic plan that is thoughtfully expressed by a life experience with an art or the arts.
I'm happy "K" has found his own path, and I hope we can all learn more from his journey.
- Bill
I agree with your approach. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is the path I have embraced with time.to me its more broadening the base of my own knowledge , expanding on the basic principles my arts taught me . I dont think the masters made the arts to be do this and nothing more , i believe it was a now here`s where id start ...
To say you can't be complete by studying styles somehow seems at odds with the admiration poured on a family (The Gracies)that focuses on just one. Jiu-jitsu is one of the very, very early Japanese arts, and elements of it are in many of the original Asian arts. I think what really set the Gracies and others like them apart is the execution. Good execution doesn't happen by practicing an art, arts, or non-art(s) in auto-pilot. It happens by having a simple basic plan that is thoughtfully expressed by a life experience with an art or the arts.
I'm happy "K" has found his own path, and I hope we can all learn more from his journey.
- Bill
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
Thank you for the replies gentlemne. I did try before to resond, but I guess I got to long winded to have it posted:>. My point was probably lost in my long wind. I belive that you should have a base art and that you should have achieve some high KYU rank or a Dan Rank before learning something all out.
However, people that do no tthink of grappling as a viable option or as relalstic are letting their ego's get ahead of their traing. Is grappling the end all and the best for every situation...OF COURSE NOT. BUT their are times when it is agreat solution and one where you might have to take the fight to get the advantage. I am a Probation Officer and if I have to cuff someone grappling comes into play and it is likley that ground grappling will come next. I can not just start throwing knees & elbows into people. Like wise their are legalities that will prosecute you for defending yourself above the force matrix or level of force.
The other point that I wanted to make was people should try to train for ranges and adopte other methods if they work better. All of the grapplers that I have trained with, Machados & Gokor Chivichian & Gene Lebell teach and know stand up stricking and grappling as well. THey also train specifically on how to getr strikeers oin to the ground and in their world. They knowe what strikers are going to do, the elbow to the back, the basic wrestling sprawl and all of the pressure points, biting and eye gouges. Gene Lebell teaches you to bite!! So rember if I have you pinned on the ground & you try to bite me, I am also in position to bite you, but also in better position to strike you, as you won't know how to escape.
So train for ranges and goto seminars to learn how to defend the Grappler and escape the ground, that way you can cointrol the fight because then you control the range! K
However, people that do no tthink of grappling as a viable option or as relalstic are letting their ego's get ahead of their traing. Is grappling the end all and the best for every situation...OF COURSE NOT. BUT their are times when it is agreat solution and one where you might have to take the fight to get the advantage. I am a Probation Officer and if I have to cuff someone grappling comes into play and it is likley that ground grappling will come next. I can not just start throwing knees & elbows into people. Like wise their are legalities that will prosecute you for defending yourself above the force matrix or level of force.
The other point that I wanted to make was people should try to train for ranges and adopte other methods if they work better. All of the grapplers that I have trained with, Machados & Gokor Chivichian & Gene Lebell teach and know stand up stricking and grappling as well. THey also train specifically on how to getr strikeers oin to the ground and in their world. They knowe what strikers are going to do, the elbow to the back, the basic wrestling sprawl and all of the pressure points, biting and eye gouges. Gene Lebell teaches you to bite!! So rember if I have you pinned on the ground & you try to bite me, I am also in position to bite you, but also in better position to strike you, as you won't know how to escape.
So train for ranges and goto seminars to learn how to defend the Grappler and escape the ground, that way you can cointrol the fight because then you control the range! K
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
So why do you train?
Some people, like you it seems, encounter situations requiring force with some regularity. And depending on their personal situations, they may need to undertake training in multiple styles and spend more time on them.
I on the other hand only have a little bit of time these days for my MA because of my job requirements, which also mean I'm very unlikely to get attacked. So my MA is as it is for most, something I do because I want to (or, I am to fault for my inability to do more). And so it is with you--you picked your job.
In every case the type of training is fitted to the needs of the individual and the assumption that we all need to train in multiple disciplines and weapons doesn't hold true.
There's nothing wrong with MA that are completely harmless if the point is the 12 yr old participant likes them (provided s/he understands its limitations) and it's helping with grades.
And there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Or my five minutes here and there for personal kata study.
I'm won't say I don't have gripes with people's MAs. They usually come about when people don't have their purposes matched to their arts, like people who have illusions about how good their stuff is in the real world.
Some people, like you it seems, encounter situations requiring force with some regularity. And depending on their personal situations, they may need to undertake training in multiple styles and spend more time on them.
I on the other hand only have a little bit of time these days for my MA because of my job requirements, which also mean I'm very unlikely to get attacked. So my MA is as it is for most, something I do because I want to (or, I am to fault for my inability to do more). And so it is with you--you picked your job.
In every case the type of training is fitted to the needs of the individual and the assumption that we all need to train in multiple disciplines and weapons doesn't hold true.
There's nothing wrong with MA that are completely harmless if the point is the 12 yr old participant likes them (provided s/he understands its limitations) and it's helping with grades.
And there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Or my five minutes here and there for personal kata study.
I'm won't say I don't have gripes with people's MAs. They usually come about when people don't have their purposes matched to their arts, like people who have illusions about how good their stuff is in the real world.
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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Van Canna
I like it.I'm won't say I don't have gripes with people's MAs. They usually come about when people don't have their purposes matched to their arts, like people who have illusions about how good their stuff is in the real world.
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Van Canna
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
This post was taken away.
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 04, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 04, 2001).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
K
Perhaps you are confused. I'm not sure what brought out that last post.
Please remember the general rules of the forum. Discuss issues, and not personalities. And please remember that all are a guest here of the forum moderator and the keeper of the website. As guests, a little bit of decorum is in order.
Also remember that there are more than a few jiu-jitsu practitioners in the greater Uechi Ryu community. Furthermore, I had more than a few former varsity college wrestlers START their karate training with me, and spent quite a few years studying aikido myself. More than a few Uechi dojos (and I can name a few, including one I oversee) work out on mats. To say that this or any style as a whole thinks this or that way about grappling is making a false generalization. Perhaps you might re-think what you are attempting to express.
And pardon me if I misunderstood you...
- Bill
Perhaps you are confused. I'm not sure what brought out that last post.
Please remember the general rules of the forum. Discuss issues, and not personalities. And please remember that all are a guest here of the forum moderator and the keeper of the website. As guests, a little bit of decorum is in order.
Also remember that there are more than a few jiu-jitsu practitioners in the greater Uechi Ryu community. Furthermore, I had more than a few former varsity college wrestlers START their karate training with me, and spent quite a few years studying aikido myself. More than a few Uechi dojos (and I can name a few, including one I oversee) work out on mats. To say that this or any style as a whole thinks this or that way about grappling is making a false generalization. Perhaps you might re-think what you are attempting to express.
And pardon me if I misunderstood you...
- Bill
The TRUTH ABOUT GRAPPLING!!
For me, training was never about fear of being attacked, or dragged to the ground. Learning to do something well has always taken precedence. I think Ian's thought, that one matches purpose to one's training says it well. That this amount of diversification is necessary to be 'complete' is just not realistic in my world. For pure efficiency, and based on my 30 years of my life experience living in the center of the city, the most valuable martial arts training I ever received was High School track, outpacing an assailant. Now that my legs aren't as fast, how would I learn the Gracie's JJ?
