The Wauke is such a huge part of our Uechi,so many things flow from it.
Why do we proform such basic block in Sanchin? Are we programing bad habits?Or are we applying the paint one coat at a time?
Laird.
circle block
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
circle block
Laird
I think the circle movement in sanchin is not so much block as it is a "thing." The more I study something like sanchin and then try to teach complex movements, the more I realize that this basic form is really just a practicing of fundamental movements and principles. That circular motion may be part of a block, an attack, an escape maneuver, a setup for a grab, throw, or lock, a parry plus something, etc.
What remains important in sanchin isn't so much the what as it is the how. When teaching complex blocks, catches, locks, or throws, the way you do them is similar to the way that basic parrry/circle motion is done in sanchin. Often when I see someone perform the fundamental movements in sanchin, I can tell what their more advanced forms are going to look like. So if anything, something like the wauke in sanchin is all about trying to teach good habits.
- Bill
I think the circle movement in sanchin is not so much block as it is a "thing." The more I study something like sanchin and then try to teach complex movements, the more I realize that this basic form is really just a practicing of fundamental movements and principles. That circular motion may be part of a block, an attack, an escape maneuver, a setup for a grab, throw, or lock, a parry plus something, etc.
What remains important in sanchin isn't so much the what as it is the how. When teaching complex blocks, catches, locks, or throws, the way you do them is similar to the way that basic parrry/circle motion is done in sanchin. Often when I see someone perform the fundamental movements in sanchin, I can tell what their more advanced forms are going to look like. So if anything, something like the wauke in sanchin is all about trying to teach good habits.
- Bill
circle block
A proper circle block should stop a bull elephant. You practice it to crush an opponent and have total confidence in your ability to break an arm or stop an attack.
As in one of the previous posts, the power comes from a strong stance directed by the waist. It should feel like a powerful geared turret.
Re performing incorrectly, if the focal point for the block starts in the shoulder, there is no mechanical advantage to the block. It isn't correct.
For correct application, do arm rubbing and other two-man circle block drills under close supervision.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited November 30, 2001).]
As in one of the previous posts, the power comes from a strong stance directed by the waist. It should feel like a powerful geared turret.
Re performing incorrectly, if the focal point for the block starts in the shoulder, there is no mechanical advantage to the block. It isn't correct.
For correct application, do arm rubbing and other two-man circle block drills under close supervision.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited November 30, 2001).]
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Guest
circle block
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phils:
Re performing incorrectly, if the focal point for the block starts in the shoulder, there is no mechanical advantage to the block. It isn't correct.
Phils, well stated thank you! It's just flailing of arms if you don't put the power in.
I've been struggling trying to take some folks to the next step.When I explained not just the arms and demonstrated again I began to see lights come on. Some times it's just finding the right word that does it.
Laird
Re performing incorrectly, if the focal point for the block starts in the shoulder, there is no mechanical advantage to the block. It isn't correct.
Phils, well stated thank you! It's just flailing of arms if you don't put the power in.
I've been struggling trying to take some folks to the next step.When I explained not just the arms and demonstrated again I began to see lights come on. Some times it's just finding the right word that does it.
Laird
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Guest
circle block
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Laird
What remains important in sanchin isn't so much the what as it is the how.
sanchin is all about trying to teach good habits.
Bill I agree. I posed this question poorly.
I have been pondering why early students do such 1 dimensional blocks. All arm ,no guiding palm heel block,no mini crane block of of the guiding block. They basically do a choppy circle block too close to the body.
I'm talking entry level folks here. I have been struggling with teaching this. Also a twist of the waist,the drop of an elbow,tiny motion as opposed to large motion.The soft push of a wrist.
I know time and mileage but any suggestions or drills to help these folks discover more sooner,or how to be less robotic in there movements?
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Laird
What remains important in sanchin isn't so much the what as it is the how.
sanchin is all about trying to teach good habits.
Bill I agree. I posed this question poorly.
I have been pondering why early students do such 1 dimensional blocks. All arm ,no guiding palm heel block,no mini crane block of of the guiding block. They basically do a choppy circle block too close to the body.
I'm talking entry level folks here. I have been struggling with teaching this. Also a twist of the waist,the drop of an elbow,tiny motion as opposed to large motion.The soft push of a wrist.
I know time and mileage but any suggestions or drills to help these folks discover more sooner,or how to be less robotic in there movements?
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
circle block
Hello "uglyelk"
I also wondered why new students were so robotic at early stages. In my opinion it is in large part to the way they begin the basics. Elbows in, shoulders down, fingers together, hips tucked and so forth may cause the student to be a hinged statue. With one new group I tried an experiment , I asked them all to give me a "big wave" as if they were trying to catch my attention..this became the wauke, the stance was simply right or left foot in front. Weeks later I began slowly introducing the elbows in ect..I had less drop outs {some are now Dan ranks} and although the form looks sloppy for months, when they reached colored belt level those whom felt that my teaching methods became slack fell silent. We have to stop and observe..if it ain`t working ..dasn`t (Lunenburg accent) keep doing it.
I also wondered why new students were so robotic at early stages. In my opinion it is in large part to the way they begin the basics. Elbows in, shoulders down, fingers together, hips tucked and so forth may cause the student to be a hinged statue. With one new group I tried an experiment , I asked them all to give me a "big wave" as if they were trying to catch my attention..this became the wauke, the stance was simply right or left foot in front. Weeks later I began slowly introducing the elbows in ect..I had less drop outs {some are now Dan ranks} and although the form looks sloppy for months, when they reached colored belt level those whom felt that my teaching methods became slack fell silent. We have to stop and observe..if it ain`t working ..dasn`t (Lunenburg accent) keep doing it.
circle block
The reason why all the new students are robotic is that once they get out of that phase, we say they're no longer beginners.
As for the "block" find a bunch of alternative uses @
http://www.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/sanchinbunk.html
As for the "block" find a bunch of alternative uses @
http://www.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/sanchinbunk.html
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
circle block
I like the thought, Ian. But then again, there might be a reason... 
People talk a lot about the wauke needing to be done this way or that. That's all fine and good given certain applications or preferences. But then you watch someone like Royce Gracie do a slow, deliberate, controlled movement in a grappling situation, and the assumption goes out the window. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
But I digress just a little...
Laird, I think you bring up some good points. Part of the issue is starting people the right way. There are many approaches to this, depending on the outcome. Some people are very drill oriented, whereas others are principle and application oriented. In the end I feel both approaches - done somewhat simultaneously - are useful.
It has been stated many times that great masters of many arts taught students because they wanted to work on and refine their own basics. I take great pleasure in working with a group of students when their struggles allow me to hone my own skills. There are many crutches, drills, and exercises that are useful to developing the overall set of skills in a general technique like the wauke. Perhaps the approach chosen is as much the issue of the messenger as it is the message or the medium.
- Bill
People talk a lot about the wauke needing to be done this way or that. That's all fine and good given certain applications or preferences. But then you watch someone like Royce Gracie do a slow, deliberate, controlled movement in a grappling situation, and the assumption goes out the window. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
A circular movement of a cape combined with good footwork avoids the issue of trying to violate basic laws of Newtonian physics. Some of the great boxers in history like Sugar Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali fought that way. One of the famous losses of Sugar Ray was when he tried to answer his critics who claimed he couldn't fight toe-to-toe, and couldn't take a punch. In the first Duran/Leonard fight, Sugar Ray proved he could do just that...and lost the match by decision. In the second fight, he fought his own style of constant movement and guerilla attacks, and beat Duran so senseless that the phrase 'No mas box' briefly became part of the contemporary vocabulary.A proper circle block should stop a bull elephant.
But I digress just a little...
Laird, I think you bring up some good points. Part of the issue is starting people the right way. There are many approaches to this, depending on the outcome. Some people are very drill oriented, whereas others are principle and application oriented. In the end I feel both approaches - done somewhat simultaneously - are useful.
It has been stated many times that great masters of many arts taught students because they wanted to work on and refine their own basics. I take great pleasure in working with a group of students when their struggles allow me to hone my own skills. There are many crutches, drills, and exercises that are useful to developing the overall set of skills in a general technique like the wauke. Perhaps the approach chosen is as much the issue of the messenger as it is the message or the medium.
- Bill
circle block
I'm not familiar with Mr. Gracie, or the style, so I cannot comment. My comment on the stopping power of a circle block refers mainly to a committed attack. Is this a big guy?
A circle block probably has application in a grappling mode. That would be interesting to watch!
The circle block is a sophisticated block. It has a spiral torque. Done correctly, it has infinite possibility. If there is any meaning in the Uechi symbol (cutting through) it probably comes from the dimensional aspect of this block. Forward movement makes this a corkscrew in space!
Done improperly and at best, it's a check block. As noted, without a root, it's an arm being tossed at an attacker. A person without confidence in this block will abandon it in a fight. It has to be part of the way you understand karate.
The problem with learning the block is the time it takes to develop the full internal connection eventually being able to use any part of it work (from the fingers to the elbow). There needs to be uniform connection, mental control and proper relaxation. The overall form should be 'comfortable', hip cradled. The hands should indicate this and be supple, not stiff. If there is movement, the foot and hands should start and stop at the same time. The end of the block should not create tremors or jerking in the body.
Students need to understand the basic stance (rooted) has to be there before they can summon the connection to the arm. They must move correctly in their stance to perform this block.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited December 03, 2001).]
A circle block probably has application in a grappling mode. That would be interesting to watch!
The circle block is a sophisticated block. It has a spiral torque. Done correctly, it has infinite possibility. If there is any meaning in the Uechi symbol (cutting through) it probably comes from the dimensional aspect of this block. Forward movement makes this a corkscrew in space!
Done improperly and at best, it's a check block. As noted, without a root, it's an arm being tossed at an attacker. A person without confidence in this block will abandon it in a fight. It has to be part of the way you understand karate.
The problem with learning the block is the time it takes to develop the full internal connection eventually being able to use any part of it work (from the fingers to the elbow). There needs to be uniform connection, mental control and proper relaxation. The overall form should be 'comfortable', hip cradled. The hands should indicate this and be supple, not stiff. If there is movement, the foot and hands should start and stop at the same time. The end of the block should not create tremors or jerking in the body.
Students need to understand the basic stance (rooted) has to be there before they can summon the connection to the arm. They must move correctly in their stance to perform this block.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited December 03, 2001).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
circle block
I do like the corkscrew analogy (use it myself... ) when describing the action of the wauke with an oncoming attack. I also agree with the value of using the body in many (but not all) cases.
An extreme example of the latter is in seisan. Ever wondered why you do those waukes after the groin strikes? Whack someone in the family jewels, and watch what happens to their body orientation. More often than not, the butt-out, head-forward position makes the back of the neck a wonderful target. In that case, I'm going to put my whole body into a shuto to the back of the neck, delivered in a circular motion. Suddenly circle block becomes circular attack. And that's why I like to call it a "thing" in sanchin as opposed to a block.
Here's something to ponder, Phil. By now I suppose you know who Gary Khoury is. He's been one of the more successful Uechi fighters in the international fighting circuit. Gary has kind of a funny philosophy about circular blocks, and espouses it on his CD. Basically from a practical standpoint, he thinks the motion is disguised, and is normally applied as a reverse circle.
So...what do you think of that? Gary is worth listening to, as he's put his a** on the line - in the sparring ring - more than most ever will. He also has quite a few wins to back up his approach. And he has studied from many of the Uechi greats, including Nakahodo (whom he looks a great deal like when doing kata). I have my opinions about Gary's beliefs, but would love to hear yours first.
- Bill
) when describing the action of the wauke with an oncoming attack. I also agree with the value of using the body in many (but not all) cases.An extreme example of the latter is in seisan. Ever wondered why you do those waukes after the groin strikes? Whack someone in the family jewels, and watch what happens to their body orientation. More often than not, the butt-out, head-forward position makes the back of the neck a wonderful target. In that case, I'm going to put my whole body into a shuto to the back of the neck, delivered in a circular motion. Suddenly circle block becomes circular attack. And that's why I like to call it a "thing" in sanchin as opposed to a block.
Here's something to ponder, Phil. By now I suppose you know who Gary Khoury is. He's been one of the more successful Uechi fighters in the international fighting circuit. Gary has kind of a funny philosophy about circular blocks, and espouses it on his CD. Basically from a practical standpoint, he thinks the motion is disguised, and is normally applied as a reverse circle.
So...what do you think of that? Gary is worth listening to, as he's put his a** on the line - in the sparring ring - more than most ever will. He also has quite a few wins to back up his approach. And he has studied from many of the Uechi greats, including Nakahodo (whom he looks a great deal like when doing kata). I have my opinions about Gary's beliefs, but would love to hear yours first.
- Bill
circle block
Yes, while I do not know him personally, I have enjoyed reading him. He has been deferential to me and like many Uechi people I have met over there years, I think there is mutual respect and a rapport. I'm not just saying that. I've only seen him fight briefly (in a dimly lighted video clip) maybe last year. What came through palpably is physical strength, speed and courage.
I don't have a clear understanding of his meaning as indicated above. I can try to expand on the previous posts and tie-in the two sentences supplied.
Re disguised, in general, the underpinnings of the block are concealed. The line of the circle block extends from the feet around the torso and over the shoulder. The longer the line, the more relaxed and connected, the more potential power in the block. The path is visible in the minds eye.
The internal circular movement of the block is complex. The waist-spine need to be the focus. Externally, the elbow describes the internal motion of the waist.
If the body position is correct, the coiled torsional energy in the waist should release through the ward-off arm; if the right arm, and say, in a clock-wise spiral motion (outward blocks like this are yang in nature or power moves, the opposite are yin and subtler).
The counter block can be just as effective. I think of these as fast deflecting or smothering blocks on incoming attacks, where emphasis is on the secondary hand. That's my guess as to where Gary's coming from. These blocks are very fast and opponents never see the secondary attack (it's that fast) therefore, ideal in fighting application.
It may also be that inside versus outside is a preference based on physical tendency, skill or sheer native strength. My favorite circle block is an inside downward deflection or pull-down block with a secondary backhand attack. Energy manifest in the waist from the downward block is released it into the backhand. Twisting the waist, even while moving, makes it more effective. It comes from the Tai Chi two man set and it's very fast for me, although I believe the speed of my right arm, in part, is from my Uechi training.
Since all forms require balance, the overall solution is to learn both, do right and left, inside and outside, with equal intensity. A preference will reveal itself in time once the principle is understood.
I'd need more information if there's a guiding principle in his discussion. If you give me more on his ideas, I will try to comment respectfully.
RE the corkscrew, like most of my thinking on Uechi-ryu, George Mattson gets the credit as my source. One way or another, whether from his books or from classes years ago, it all originates from George.
Like the teenager that's growing up, I find his words come back to me with new meaning, time and time-again.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited December 04, 2001).]
I don't have a clear understanding of his meaning as indicated above. I can try to expand on the previous posts and tie-in the two sentences supplied.
Re disguised, in general, the underpinnings of the block are concealed. The line of the circle block extends from the feet around the torso and over the shoulder. The longer the line, the more relaxed and connected, the more potential power in the block. The path is visible in the minds eye.
The internal circular movement of the block is complex. The waist-spine need to be the focus. Externally, the elbow describes the internal motion of the waist.
If the body position is correct, the coiled torsional energy in the waist should release through the ward-off arm; if the right arm, and say, in a clock-wise spiral motion (outward blocks like this are yang in nature or power moves, the opposite are yin and subtler).
The counter block can be just as effective. I think of these as fast deflecting or smothering blocks on incoming attacks, where emphasis is on the secondary hand. That's my guess as to where Gary's coming from. These blocks are very fast and opponents never see the secondary attack (it's that fast) therefore, ideal in fighting application.
It may also be that inside versus outside is a preference based on physical tendency, skill or sheer native strength. My favorite circle block is an inside downward deflection or pull-down block with a secondary backhand attack. Energy manifest in the waist from the downward block is released it into the backhand. Twisting the waist, even while moving, makes it more effective. It comes from the Tai Chi two man set and it's very fast for me, although I believe the speed of my right arm, in part, is from my Uechi training.
Since all forms require balance, the overall solution is to learn both, do right and left, inside and outside, with equal intensity. A preference will reveal itself in time once the principle is understood.
I'd need more information if there's a guiding principle in his discussion. If you give me more on his ideas, I will try to comment respectfully.
RE the corkscrew, like most of my thinking on Uechi-ryu, George Mattson gets the credit as my source. One way or another, whether from his books or from classes years ago, it all originates from George.
Like the teenager that's growing up, I find his words come back to me with new meaning, time and time-again.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited December 04, 2001).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
circle block
Phil
I don't know how far I want to go talking about what someone else thinks when they are nearby and can speak for themselves. But I'll try and I'm sure my good friend will correct me if I misrepresent him.
I believe Gary shows this on his sparring video. You should really get it; it brings the basics of sparring to the common person in a way that can get people away from flailing and towards a more disciplined and thoughtful approach. But I have seen Gary talk about this at his seminars too.
Gary has stated that he thought the circle (wauke) very well might have been a technique in disguise. There were times when it was frowned upon for Okinawans (and others) to practice fighting methods. Gary contends that doing the wauke in reverse (like a gedan barai motion) is much more practical from a fighting standpoint. But folks who practiced this didn't want to be seen in public where such a movement was a known defense. So...doing the motion in reverse (waxing on instead of waxing off) like the circle motion we know in sanchin gave someone the opportunity to practice the principles and lines of the movement without being "discovered." I don't think Gary invented that idea; I believe he got it from discussions with great instructors like Nakahodo. Gary then can show you how practical such a motion is during sparring. Certainly he puts these ideas into practice when he spars, and his results speak for themselves. And I don't believe I've ever seen him do a wauke during a sparring match.
So... Given the great deal of attention you are giving to this motion, doesn't this make you wonder just a bit about it all?
I'm not trying to "dis" anyone here. I just think these ideas are fascinating, and I have a few of my own. But I don't want to bias the discussion. I'd really like to know what others think first.
- Bill
I don't know how far I want to go talking about what someone else thinks when they are nearby and can speak for themselves. But I'll try and I'm sure my good friend will correct me if I misrepresent him.
I believe Gary shows this on his sparring video. You should really get it; it brings the basics of sparring to the common person in a way that can get people away from flailing and towards a more disciplined and thoughtful approach. But I have seen Gary talk about this at his seminars too.
Gary has stated that he thought the circle (wauke) very well might have been a technique in disguise. There were times when it was frowned upon for Okinawans (and others) to practice fighting methods. Gary contends that doing the wauke in reverse (like a gedan barai motion) is much more practical from a fighting standpoint. But folks who practiced this didn't want to be seen in public where such a movement was a known defense. So...doing the motion in reverse (waxing on instead of waxing off) like the circle motion we know in sanchin gave someone the opportunity to practice the principles and lines of the movement without being "discovered." I don't think Gary invented that idea; I believe he got it from discussions with great instructors like Nakahodo. Gary then can show you how practical such a motion is during sparring. Certainly he puts these ideas into practice when he spars, and his results speak for themselves. And I don't believe I've ever seen him do a wauke during a sparring match.
So... Given the great deal of attention you are giving to this motion, doesn't this make you wonder just a bit about it all?
I'm not trying to "dis" anyone here. I just think these ideas are fascinating, and I have a few of my own. But I don't want to bias the discussion. I'd really like to know what others think first.
- Bill
circle block
It sure looks like 'dis'. I'm disappointed and sorry for you. No bother to reply, I won't visit again.
As gold which he cannot spend will make no man rich, so knowleldge which he cannot apply will make no man wise. -- Samuel Johnson
Adieu!
As gold which he cannot spend will make no man rich, so knowleldge which he cannot apply will make no man wise. -- Samuel Johnson
Adieu!
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Joe Graziano
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Milford, MA, US
circle block
We can and should practice the wauke as a full movement in the kata, perhaps thinking of it as a template. We can work toward developing a fast full movement with "effortless power", fully cognizant that in practical application we will draw on just a portion of the movement, in either direction, i.e., wax on or off.
The point is, I think, that we're the better for the full practice as it includes the lesser technique(s).
The point is, I think, that we're the better for the full practice as it includes the lesser technique(s).
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
circle block
Phil
I'm going on the assumption that this will directly or indirectly get to you. First of all, I may owe you an apology as I appear to have inadvertently offended you. Secondly, you really misunderstood my point and/or the device I employed. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I think Joe took the mental challenge and ran with it in a direction that helps. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And believe it or not, one of my favorite views of the elephant is different from the view articulated by either you or Gary. When I fight, my defenses are largely parries. But my aikido background allows me to see ways to complete the sentence that my karate training started. A parry can lead to a grab (delivered via a quick, effortless circle) with the other arm, which can lead to all kinds of good things...that are not allowed or given credit for in WKF competition. To me, it's no wonder Gary thinks the way he does. When I sit back and contemplate how all those opposing points of view might actually be that way because of the different approaches to the art, the mental light then begins to shine in a way it never has before.
But do I have it all figured out? If I did, I wouldn't be probing you guys. The truth is that my devil's advocate device is a way for me to seek truth. There are days when I feel no better than a beginner. The way I figure it, the more I think that way the faster I learn.
On a related subject, you may enjoy the following. This is from a Myers-Briggs manual. It describes an "ENTP." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...
How Others May See Them
....
Their conversational style is customarily challenging and stimulating because they love to debate ideas. They are fluent conversationalists, mentally quick, and enjoy verbal sparring. When they express their underlying Thinking principles, however, they may feel awkward and speak with uncharacteristic intensity and abruptness....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Know anybody like that?
I know for a fact that there are a lot of ENTPs on the dojo floor and mat. These are the ones that love to physically spar for the sake of sparring. The conflict is part of their learning process. And once the opponents bow, they go off and have a beer together, even more respectful of each other than they were the day before.
Thanks for participating, Phil. Your contributions and unique perspective are always valued.
- Bill
I'm going on the assumption that this will directly or indirectly get to you. First of all, I may owe you an apology as I appear to have inadvertently offended you. Secondly, you really misunderstood my point and/or the device I employed. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I employ this device a lot in my own classroom teaching to get students to think about why they do things. Sometimes what they come up with surprises me, and I am the one that ends up learning. Actually the person I was concerned about "dissing" was my friend Gary, who I respect a lot but don't necessarily agree with on this particular point.devil's advocate ... 2. A person who opposes an argument with which he does not necessarily disagree, as to determine its validity.
I think Joe took the mental challenge and ran with it in a direction that helps. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Very often in our practice, I see people invest a lot of time in ideas about what this or that is. I am very much a part of that process. We all have our favorite points of view about a particular technique, set of techniques, or general approach to things. Occasionally someone will come up with a most eloquent way of defending a point of view, and be most capable of putting the idea into practice. Then you'll go to another dojo and find someone preaching something very different, in an equally eloquent fashion. And they are able to put those ideas in practice too! So...does that mean one or the other camp is wrong? Some like to think so. I consider the situation a valuable learning opportunity. And yes, sometimes I think they are both right. If two blind men grab onto an elephant in different places and describe two very different things, are one or the other of them wrong? Only if they discount the observations and interpretations of the other. Sometimes it takes somebody like Joe to step back and put the pieces of the puzzle together. Personally I'm still in that process right now....in practical application we will draw on just a portion of the movement, in either direction, i.e., wax on or off.
And believe it or not, one of my favorite views of the elephant is different from the view articulated by either you or Gary. When I fight, my defenses are largely parries. But my aikido background allows me to see ways to complete the sentence that my karate training started. A parry can lead to a grab (delivered via a quick, effortless circle) with the other arm, which can lead to all kinds of good things...that are not allowed or given credit for in WKF competition. To me, it's no wonder Gary thinks the way he does. When I sit back and contemplate how all those opposing points of view might actually be that way because of the different approaches to the art, the mental light then begins to shine in a way it never has before.
But do I have it all figured out? If I did, I wouldn't be probing you guys. The truth is that my devil's advocate device is a way for me to seek truth. There are days when I feel no better than a beginner. The way I figure it, the more I think that way the faster I learn.
On a related subject, you may enjoy the following. This is from a Myers-Briggs manual. It describes an "ENTP." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...
How Others May See Them
....
Their conversational style is customarily challenging and stimulating because they love to debate ideas. They are fluent conversationalists, mentally quick, and enjoy verbal sparring. When they express their underlying Thinking principles, however, they may feel awkward and speak with uncharacteristic intensity and abruptness....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Know anybody like that?
I know for a fact that there are a lot of ENTPs on the dojo floor and mat. These are the ones that love to physically spar for the sake of sparring. The conflict is part of their learning process. And once the opponents bow, they go off and have a beer together, even more respectful of each other than they were the day before.
Thanks for participating, Phil. Your contributions and unique perspective are always valued.
- Bill
