Too much "artistic" emphasis?

[cashodan]

Hi, Ive been studying Uechi-Ryu for nearly 6 years now, and have been watching the boards intermittenly for the alst 18 months or so and a question was raised in my mind...What is it exactly people are looking for when they study any martial art for the "artistic" aspect of it? It seems to me, in my feeble mind anyways , that the artistic aspect of any martial art doesnt come in until many years have been spent studying your art. Once the practitioner has a thorough understanding of the motions that he/she have studied and is able to execute them to the fullest of abilities, that is when "art" itself comes out isnt it? I have a couple friends that study northern chinese kung fu, and they claim to be studying only the art aspect and dont appear to have any interest in the practical application portion of their art. Isnt that what martial arts are? The art of defending yourself/combat/fighting (depending on who you talk to, lol)? I dont mean to offend anyone but I dont understand how one can study the art without studying the practical app. Maybe we can turn this into something interesting...


-A man is judged not by his successes,
but by how he remedies his failures.
--a short,wise Jedi Master

[Bill Glasheen]

There's nothing wrong with appreciating the artistic side of martial arts. However one must always remember to stay well grounded in application and practical value, or the art ceases to be martial.

One could take the design of an automobile as a practical example. In the fifties when the U.S. was obsessed with "The Jet Age" and breaking the sound barrier, cars had fins on them. They didn't do diddly-squat, but people snatched them up thinking they made the car faster (or at least made it look faster). There was also an obsession with chrome bumpers, even though they were easily damaged and expensive to replace. There was an obsession with making everything hard and heavy. That's fine as long as you hit something smaller than you. In that case, Newton's laws were on your side. But when two cars equally bloated hit each other or a car hit an immovable object, all those hard things on the dashboard and steering wheel suddenly became brain bashers. Furthermore, the car may survive but the contents would be turned into people jelly.

Wind tunnels caused car body design to graduate to a kind of streamlined bubble look. Five-mph crash tests led to the development of honeycomb bumper design with plastic materials. Crash tests against immovable barriers led to seat/shoulder belts, air bags, padded dashboards, and crumple zones. Take a "hot" car of the fifties and put it up against a similar model from the new millennium. The differences are staggering. And yet some cars built in this century can still look hot. Give me a 5.0 liter BMW X5 SUV any day, and I'll be in pretty decent shape if ever I wreck. Even the modern VW Beetle is eons ahead in safety features. This "appealing" vehicle may look similar to the old beetle, but the exterior shape is the only common feature. Even the engine and drive wheels are completely opposite.

A good engineer sees beauty when form and function come together in a happy marriage. So like the auto engineer, the martial artist must constantly put his/her ideas and practices to the test. Better yet (and this is where many "modern" instructors fail) the tests must be meaningful, and the limitations must be well understood. A threat can take on many forms. The ultimate goal in practical self-defense is to live to see tomorrow with pride and dignity. No single metric (test, arena, etc.) out there will tell you if you're on the right track. And the test isn't much good if it's merely a process of selection (those that fail die or quit). As the Jedi Master that you quote tells you, learning to remedy failure is key. In fact if you aren't pushing yourself to failure now and then (hopefully in a safe fashion), there isn't much learning going on.

Walking that path of discovery is in itself an artform. And making something of it is a thing of beauty. At the end of the day, those that have significant successes behind them have a right to think themselves "pretty," in the words of Muhammad Ali.

- Bill

[Colin 8 of 8]

A ‘martial art’ consists of to parts:-

The ‘martial’ bit and the ‘art’ bit. A style that is totally devoid of one is not a ‘martial art’.

However the martial part of an art can be reduced to almost nothing. Such as the ‘Tie Chi’ practised in the early mornings.

Colin 8 of 8

PS. You find the art in your Martial Art when you start looking for it.


------------------
My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.

[This message has been edited by Colin 8 of 8 (edited December 26, 2001).]

[candan]

quote Colin 8 of 8

"However the martial part of an art can be reduced to almost nothing. Such as the ‘Tie Chi’ practised in the early mornings."

Or like a Tiger sleeping..looks harmless


[This message has been edited by candan (edited December 28, 2001).]

[LeeDarrow]

Too much emphasis on art... hmmmm....

Martial arts are both creative (in that we create new ways to protect ourselves and others, devise new strategies, waza, bunkai, etc) and destructive (in that we damage others in the application of our art).

Much like card magic (believe it or not), the artistic side - it's pretty and/or entertaining) and practical (because it can allow you to see when you are being cheated and defend against that).

Like a painter, we create a tapestry of technique. To the opponent, we often paint a picture with pain for them.

There is creation in destruction and style IS a significant portion of art.

Unlike the western fighting forms, the asian styles have elected to add the element of artistic expression in the form of kata, hyung, whatever, along with concepts of what constitutes good technique, which are based on the cutting edge of knowledge at the time they were created.

There is always room for growth, just as the basics stay essentially unchanged, but trends in fighting cause the focus of application to favor some techniques over others, much like in fencing, where Prime and Octave (two parries) are still taught, but rarely used in a real match.

It does not mean that these two out-of-favor techniques aren't effective, it just means that current application pretty much precludes their use on the piste. In a duel, they might save your life.

"One cannot break the rules with good outcome until one masters the rules." - Picasso.

So it is with MA. Learn the art AND the application. They are part of the greater whole.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, semi-retired)

[GSantaniello]

cashodan,

You ask a good and ligitmate question.

"What are boards looking for in testing".

As human beings we all take more favourably to some things than others. Having sat on several boards myself, my feelings are that different board members look at their own personal veiws in others performance.

We have all tried to be on the same page prior to testing. In most cases, the material is all the same. How one displays it is within themselves.

Spirit, form, power, intesity, knowledge, confidence, accuracy. Just as it is not easy to go before a board, uncertain as to what they want, it is also difficult to sometimes be upon a board.

With only six years in, you have a long road before you. That is if you choose to stay. The "art" is definately there. However, it is "life long" journey, for some of us.

Yes, for many years, just getting the basics together is a goal in itself. You will adjust it over the years as different elements of it will surface from time to time.

Enjoy it !

------------------

Gary S.

[cashodan]

Gary,
Im pretty much in agreement with you have said in that I, personally, dont believe that art of martial art can be achieved until after many years of study. I think that the person that best sums it up was when Lee Darrow Quoted Picasso in regards to mastering and breaking the rules. From what I understand a good example of this would Motobu Choki. Im not terribly clear on all the facts but what I have seen in several different sources was that he had literally learned all of his kata forward, backward, left, right and inside and out until he had learned that he could have learned from each kata. Perhaps its something to look at for extended training..

Cashodan