Having caught the tail end of a late night show, "stress Release" was tho topic of discussion.
The audience was asked to place one hand on the chest area and the other on the stomach. It was pointed out that "most" people breath from the chest area, not the stomach.
It was stated that people who carry "stress" tend to breath more with their chest.
Ever notice how many when upset and/or even in sparring resort to breating more short winded with utilizing more "lung" usage ?
Funny thing, in Uechi-Ryu we have been taught for many years to breath from the belly and and keep a low center.
------------------
Gary S.
Belly Breathing !
Moderator: Available
-
GSantaniello
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
Belly Breathing !
Gary,
It's a very important distinction, one MANY people, even in the conventional fitness industry do not comprehend.
Typically this results in following dysfunctional breathing patterns:
Hyperventilatory:
This rapid-breath pattern (averaging 20 breaths/minute) uses accessory muscles and restricts diaphragmatic movement being predominantly Thoracic (see below) in nature. Produced from poorly managed anxiety, this pattern manifests as very shallow, very rapid, and compounded by sputtered sighs (periodic) and gasps (clavicular). Panic, anxiety, and shock habituate this common phenomenon. Trainees exhibiting this pattern immediately imperil their health.
Clavicular:
Those conditioned with this pattern exhibit chest-raising that elevates the collarbones while drawing in the abdomen and raising up the diaphragm. Trainees who are “open-mouth breathers” attempt to increase intake through oral inhalation, but this provides minimal pulmonary ventilation. Worse still, the accessory muscles used in this pattern consume more oxygen than it provides. In training, these individuals fatigue quickly.
Thoracic:
These “chest-breathers” typify aggressive individuals. This pattern lacks significant abdominal movement, being shallow and costal. Enlarging thoracic cavity creates a partial vacuum by lifting the rib cage up and out through external intercostals muscles. Although the lungs do manage to be expanded by negative pressure, it is not enough to ventilate the lower lobes. This reduces pulmonary ventilation, since the lower lobes receive the greatest blood volume due to gravity.
Read for more info: http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum34/HTML/000010.html
Great point, Gary!
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
It's a very important distinction, one MANY people, even in the conventional fitness industry do not comprehend.
Typically this results in following dysfunctional breathing patterns:
Hyperventilatory:
This rapid-breath pattern (averaging 20 breaths/minute) uses accessory muscles and restricts diaphragmatic movement being predominantly Thoracic (see below) in nature. Produced from poorly managed anxiety, this pattern manifests as very shallow, very rapid, and compounded by sputtered sighs (periodic) and gasps (clavicular). Panic, anxiety, and shock habituate this common phenomenon. Trainees exhibiting this pattern immediately imperil their health.
Clavicular:
Those conditioned with this pattern exhibit chest-raising that elevates the collarbones while drawing in the abdomen and raising up the diaphragm. Trainees who are “open-mouth breathers” attempt to increase intake through oral inhalation, but this provides minimal pulmonary ventilation. Worse still, the accessory muscles used in this pattern consume more oxygen than it provides. In training, these individuals fatigue quickly.
Thoracic:
These “chest-breathers” typify aggressive individuals. This pattern lacks significant abdominal movement, being shallow and costal. Enlarging thoracic cavity creates a partial vacuum by lifting the rib cage up and out through external intercostals muscles. Although the lungs do manage to be expanded by negative pressure, it is not enough to ventilate the lower lobes. This reduces pulmonary ventilation, since the lower lobes receive the greatest blood volume due to gravity.
Read for more info: http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum34/HTML/000010.html
Great point, Gary!
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
Belly Breathing !
Funny how it works like that isnt it? Here's a lil extra tidbit to go along with that. for nearly 10 years I was a band geek playing even after high school, so I had the opportunity through seminars, fests and instructors with great contacts, to speak and play alongside some great players of the same musical persuasion (trumpet mainly)and nearly all of them confided the same information to me:
Breathe using your belly because when you breathe through your chest it restricts the amount of airflow and air capacity you have from your lungs through to your mouth. Not being terribly medically educated I cant really explain why it works like this, but I can assure you that I certainly feel the difference when I was playing.
That was just always something that I fuond interesting, that particular connection from music to maratial arts, just thought Id throw it out there...=0)'
*One mo' 'gin
-famous last words of a music teacher
Breathe using your belly because when you breathe through your chest it restricts the amount of airflow and air capacity you have from your lungs through to your mouth. Not being terribly medically educated I cant really explain why it works like this, but I can assure you that I certainly feel the difference when I was playing.
That was just always something that I fuond interesting, that particular connection from music to maratial arts, just thought Id throw it out there...=0)'
*One mo' 'gin
-famous last words of a music teacher
-
Allen M.
Belly Breathing !
Hi Gary. I've never been taught in Uechi-ryu to breath from the belly although I've done diaphragmatic breathing for as long as I can remember. The only breathing style, except for TC-style, I’ve been instructed in Uechi is to hiss like a snake, something that’s not me.
Although Van’s TC-style breathing tells us to compress as we exhale and strike all at the same time, I don’t remember him giving any lessons on using the lower lungs by moving the diaphragm for breath control. Van tells the TC to breathe forcefully naturally but doesn’t like to instruct us as how to breathe.. Please correct me if I am wrong or out of line for bringing up TC breathing Van.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Although Van’s TC-style breathing tells us to compress as we exhale and strike all at the same time, I don’t remember him giving any lessons on using the lower lungs by moving the diaphragm for breath control. Van tells the TC to breathe forcefully naturally but doesn’t like to instruct us as how to breathe.. Please correct me if I am wrong or out of line for bringing up TC breathing Van.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Belly Breathing !
Hi Allen,
I remember being taught to breathe with the belly as I began my Uechi studies. Ian describes, in his web site, to push the belly out and down and keep it solid, but no too solid, and to breathe in and out by keeping that tension constant. I like that description.
I have also bought Scott Sonnon’s breathing tape, which I believe it is the most outstanding work on breathing I have ever seen. And I am particularly partial to Scott’s explosive breathing pattern, among many other he teaches on the tape.
As to TC breathing, I recommend short explosive bursts with the violent torque and compression movements in the strike and in the seize, to relieve a buildup of pressure as I have explained. But I don’t insist on teaching breathing, except to not lock up, if possible, because there are so many ways of breathing being taught that it seems to do more harm than good to students, who become very confused.
Also, some people like to breathe at their own pace and method no matter what you teach them.
I like Scott’s teachings because of his explanation that it is what occurs in the “moment” that breathes you instead of the other way around. He also goes in great detail to dysfunctional breathing methods. As Scott explains, some of that needs to be deconditioned; and most of us will never realize if our breathing methods are the right ones unless put to the test in serious competition or in survival situations.
Joe Pomfret admits that he lost the last fight because he ran out of breath. That is what interests me, something to look into and try to improve. In other forums I have read of Scott Sonnon’s breathing methods really help the endurance of NHB fighters.
------------------
Van Canna
I remember being taught to breathe with the belly as I began my Uechi studies. Ian describes, in his web site, to push the belly out and down and keep it solid, but no too solid, and to breathe in and out by keeping that tension constant. I like that description.
I have also bought Scott Sonnon’s breathing tape, which I believe it is the most outstanding work on breathing I have ever seen. And I am particularly partial to Scott’s explosive breathing pattern, among many other he teaches on the tape.
As to TC breathing, I recommend short explosive bursts with the violent torque and compression movements in the strike and in the seize, to relieve a buildup of pressure as I have explained. But I don’t insist on teaching breathing, except to not lock up, if possible, because there are so many ways of breathing being taught that it seems to do more harm than good to students, who become very confused.
Also, some people like to breathe at their own pace and method no matter what you teach them.
I like Scott’s teachings because of his explanation that it is what occurs in the “moment” that breathes you instead of the other way around. He also goes in great detail to dysfunctional breathing methods. As Scott explains, some of that needs to be deconditioned; and most of us will never realize if our breathing methods are the right ones unless put to the test in serious competition or in survival situations.
Joe Pomfret admits that he lost the last fight because he ran out of breath. That is what interests me, something to look into and try to improve. In other forums I have read of Scott Sonnon’s breathing methods really help the endurance of NHB fighters.
------------------
Van Canna
-
GSantaniello
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
Belly Breathing !
Sonnon,
Thank you for your expansion on the subject. I did check out the info you had posted elsewhere as i was not aware of so much "depth" as to the topic.
Cashodan,
I have found that breathing is a key element in all sport/activities. Having done some competitive archery target shooting, breathng and release was most relevant as it is in pistol and rifle shootig, golf, bowling and many other things.
Allen,
Having also been in some of Van's classes, i believe it is more the "body mechanics" and "power" element" that is focused upon. As Van explains, there are many different beliefs as to "how to breath" and although they may differ, i am sure that they all have a significant meaning.
I find that for some, "overbreathing" is a problem, for some, no breathing is a problem. Utilizing a breathing system is an element that is important. However, i think most will agree that "upper body" chest area breathing is not as productive or enduring as Van's well described explanation. Training for a fight entittles yet another area "going the distance" which involves much more training methods. Bagwork, going rounds, jogging and or cardio work etc.
Van,
Thank you for your explanation and clarification on the subject. I have heard it said by some, "I don't care how you are breathing, as long as you are" !
For myself, I have found that one can practice kata focusing on different aspects of it, allowing one to utilize different breathng methods. Whatever method one uses, i beleive that using the "hara" or lower stomach is the way to go.
Respectfully,
------------------
Gary S.
Thank you for your expansion on the subject. I did check out the info you had posted elsewhere as i was not aware of so much "depth" as to the topic.
Cashodan,
I have found that breathing is a key element in all sport/activities. Having done some competitive archery target shooting, breathng and release was most relevant as it is in pistol and rifle shootig, golf, bowling and many other things.
Allen,
Having also been in some of Van's classes, i believe it is more the "body mechanics" and "power" element" that is focused upon. As Van explains, there are many different beliefs as to "how to breath" and although they may differ, i am sure that they all have a significant meaning.
I find that for some, "overbreathing" is a problem, for some, no breathing is a problem. Utilizing a breathing system is an element that is important. However, i think most will agree that "upper body" chest area breathing is not as productive or enduring as Van's well described explanation. Training for a fight entittles yet another area "going the distance" which involves much more training methods. Bagwork, going rounds, jogging and or cardio work etc.
Van,
Thank you for your explanation and clarification on the subject. I have heard it said by some, "I don't care how you are breathing, as long as you are" !
For myself, I have found that one can practice kata focusing on different aspects of it, allowing one to utilize different breathng methods. Whatever method one uses, i beleive that using the "hara" or lower stomach is the way to go.
Respectfully,
------------------
Gary S.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Belly Breathing !
Scott
Never in all my time on these web pages have I seen someone articulate breathing with such physiologic correctness and precision of language. Nice job. I've posted a number of different points in the past that were included in your post. Nice to know that someone else read the same physiology texts.
BTW, ever heard of a respiratory physiology researcher with the last name of West? I believe one of the statements you made (greater gas exchange at lower lobes due to blood pooling from gravity) comes straight from some of his original work.
- Bill
Never in all my time on these web pages have I seen someone articulate breathing with such physiologic correctness and precision of language. Nice job. I've posted a number of different points in the past that were included in your post. Nice to know that someone else read the same physiology texts.
BTW, ever heard of a respiratory physiology researcher with the last name of West? I believe one of the statements you made (greater gas exchange at lower lobes due to blood pooling from gravity) comes straight from some of his original work.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Belly Breathing !
I'm going to attempt to avoid a comparison of methods thing on the Uechi breathing, and instead bring up another important point.
Many of us have witnessed some individuals that seem to have problems breathing in-between the strikes whereas others (myself included) do not have the problem. Often when something doesn't work right, folks blame the method or technique, and instead choose another way. A classic example is someone who can't seem to make a front kick work, and so will conclude that front kicks ****** and only side kicks or roundhouse kicks work. Those latter two kicks may indeed be fantastic techniques but...most people who can't make a front kick work in sparring or a fight are in that place because they are performing the technique improperly.
I personally have many ways that I breathe when I do athletic events - karate included. I have studied a number of different breathing methods to be employed while doing martial techniques. I have my own sort of "unified theory" about it all. But a perfectly viable set of breathing tools in my box is the in-between technique breathing. My personal experience is that folks who can't do it right are experiencing problems with diaphragmatic breathing. Scott lists many of the things that go wrong when one is under stress. Hyperventilatory, clavicular, and thoracic breathing patterns are some of the dysfunctional patterns observed when things aren't going right. No matter what breathing method you choose (with or between techniques), these respiratory patterns put you behind from the word go.
Some of us who breathe properly can't really tell you where they first learned it. My choir teacher and former opera star, Mrs. Breeze, taught me it way back in parochial grammar school (imagine that
). She used to make us all go through these exaggerated motions with our little bellies to make us breathe the right way. Proper breathing led to being able to sing a note for a dramatically longer period of time - something quite useful in the practice. So when my first Uechi instructor (Rad Smith) talked about breathing from the belly, it already seemed so obvious.
I've heard anecdotes from Van and others about the problems people have breathing when the terror hits in a life-threatening confrontation. Some folks place a lot of thought and effort into teaching breathing; others say not to think about it too much. When it comes to belly breathing, I think this in particular is something worth focusing on. Things that work when you are panicked and you're down to half your abilities are the things you have done thousands and thousands of times. Perhaps one even needs to repeat it inside when the feeling comes on (breathe with the belly, breathe with the belly...) but I believe it's vital to avoiding many problems.
There is this belief of some in my former field of research (systems physiology) that properly controlling one system can affect the control of others. In other words, forcing one to have proper eyes can help to make the right mindset. Forcing oneself to breathe properly may indeed mitigate many of the other negative effects of overstimulation of the sympathetic nervous system.
- Bill
Many of us have witnessed some individuals that seem to have problems breathing in-between the strikes whereas others (myself included) do not have the problem. Often when something doesn't work right, folks blame the method or technique, and instead choose another way. A classic example is someone who can't seem to make a front kick work, and so will conclude that front kicks ****** and only side kicks or roundhouse kicks work. Those latter two kicks may indeed be fantastic techniques but...most people who can't make a front kick work in sparring or a fight are in that place because they are performing the technique improperly.
I personally have many ways that I breathe when I do athletic events - karate included. I have studied a number of different breathing methods to be employed while doing martial techniques. I have my own sort of "unified theory" about it all. But a perfectly viable set of breathing tools in my box is the in-between technique breathing. My personal experience is that folks who can't do it right are experiencing problems with diaphragmatic breathing. Scott lists many of the things that go wrong when one is under stress. Hyperventilatory, clavicular, and thoracic breathing patterns are some of the dysfunctional patterns observed when things aren't going right. No matter what breathing method you choose (with or between techniques), these respiratory patterns put you behind from the word go.
Some of us who breathe properly can't really tell you where they first learned it. My choir teacher and former opera star, Mrs. Breeze, taught me it way back in parochial grammar school (imagine that
). She used to make us all go through these exaggerated motions with our little bellies to make us breathe the right way. Proper breathing led to being able to sing a note for a dramatically longer period of time - something quite useful in the practice. So when my first Uechi instructor (Rad Smith) talked about breathing from the belly, it already seemed so obvious.I've heard anecdotes from Van and others about the problems people have breathing when the terror hits in a life-threatening confrontation. Some folks place a lot of thought and effort into teaching breathing; others say not to think about it too much. When it comes to belly breathing, I think this in particular is something worth focusing on. Things that work when you are panicked and you're down to half your abilities are the things you have done thousands and thousands of times. Perhaps one even needs to repeat it inside when the feeling comes on (breathe with the belly, breathe with the belly...) but I believe it's vital to avoiding many problems.
There is this belief of some in my former field of research (systems physiology) that properly controlling one system can affect the control of others. In other words, forcing one to have proper eyes can help to make the right mindset. Forcing oneself to breathe properly may indeed mitigate many of the other negative effects of overstimulation of the sympathetic nervous system.
- Bill
Belly Breathing !
Bill,
As you know, I find these discussions on breathing very captivating.
One thing: the following is one of the dysfunctional breathing methods outlined by Scott.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hypoxic:
In preparation of perceived exertion, this pattern comprises an inhalation, withholding of exhalation (breath retention) until the perceived exertion concludes. Holding the breath dramatically increases intra-thoracic pressure, causing health risks such as, fainting associated with Vagal nerve stimulation, increase in blood pressure, and hypoxia (lack of oxygen). Chronic, baseline hypoxic breathing is very common, especially in “athletes” – those conditioned to exertion. Hypoxic patterning connects with Fear-Reactive Armoring, the defense mechanism of “bracing” caused by anxiety. This inflexible armor either aggressive exerts (breath-holding)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps in discussing this with Scott, we should lay out for him the so called Uechi Breathing Method __
I am not sure that Uechi breathing matches this dysfunctional method. Yet when we breathe in between techniques [exertions] _ what do we do with our breath [air in our lungs] during the exertion of a strike in kata or defensive encounter?
Even as we don’t “valsalva” we still do breath retention to a certain extent when we don’t breathe out with the exertion of the movement! And this, according to Scott, increases intra-thoracic pressure.
And: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is precisely what I see in some Dan tests when candidates stop breathing and turn red and purple. Older ones on the floor look like they are about to have a heart attack. Pretty scary.
Wonder what Scott thinks of the typical display of “Uechi breathing” during kata performance.
And what of this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
------------------
Van Canna
As you know, I find these discussions on breathing very captivating.
One thing: the following is one of the dysfunctional breathing methods outlined by Scott.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hypoxic:
In preparation of perceived exertion, this pattern comprises an inhalation, withholding of exhalation (breath retention) until the perceived exertion concludes. Holding the breath dramatically increases intra-thoracic pressure, causing health risks such as, fainting associated with Vagal nerve stimulation, increase in blood pressure, and hypoxia (lack of oxygen). Chronic, baseline hypoxic breathing is very common, especially in “athletes” – those conditioned to exertion. Hypoxic patterning connects with Fear-Reactive Armoring, the defense mechanism of “bracing” caused by anxiety. This inflexible armor either aggressive exerts (breath-holding)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps in discussing this with Scott, we should lay out for him the so called Uechi Breathing Method __
I am not sure that Uechi breathing matches this dysfunctional method. Yet when we breathe in between techniques [exertions] _ what do we do with our breath [air in our lungs] during the exertion of a strike in kata or defensive encounter?
Even as we don’t “valsalva” we still do breath retention to a certain extent when we don’t breathe out with the exertion of the movement! And this, according to Scott, increases intra-thoracic pressure.
And: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Here, are we nurturing a “stop breathing” situation in the anxiety/stress of a real fight__ by our withholding of exhalation until our technique concludes, in both kata and two men applications?Hypoxic patterning connects with Fear-Reactive Armoring, the defense mechanism of “bracing” caused by anxiety. This inflexible armor either aggressive exerts (breath-holding)
This is precisely what I see in some Dan tests when candidates stop breathing and turn red and purple. Older ones on the floor look like they are about to have a heart attack. Pretty scary.
Wonder what Scott thinks of the typical display of “Uechi breathing” during kata performance.
And what of this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
As a bonus, we additionally produce complete solidity of the intra-abdominal contraction. Unlike the 'rigidity' of inhalatory intra-abdominal pressure, exhalatory intra-abdominal pressure is that 'toned suppleness' which we call “Plasticity” that manifests in ROSS Shock Absorption, an absolutely critical element of survivability, performance and health. Efficient respiration and structure and movement are inextricably interwoven.
------------------
Van Canna
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Belly Breathing !
Van
You make compelling points. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
TO START...
This isn't an all or nothing proposition by any means. Intrathoracic pressure increases (and decreases) all the time; it is a vital part of breathing. The point of respiratory muscles (primarily the diaphragm, but also the intercostals and others) is to create alternatly negative and then positive intrathoracic pressure. This in turn causes lung filling and lung emptying (breathing). Actually when one does forceful exhaling (like with your TC breathing), you are increasing intrathoracic pressure quite a bit. When one blows a horn, one increases intrathoracic pressure quite a bit. And yes, intrathoracic pressure increasing and decreasing will affect the blood vessels in the chest (primarily the vena cava, but also the heart and arteries to a smaller extent). This in turn causes a waxing and waning of the mean arterial and venous pressures throughout the body. (reference, my dissertation on Cardiopulmonary Rhythms).
The issue really isn't intrathoracic pressure increasing. A little bit is a good thing. A little bit of the wax and wane of chest pressure can enhance the circulation in a good way. The issue is too much intrathoracic pressure cased by things like closing the epiglottis when you are straining hard, closing the epiglottis when someone is hitting you in the gut, or closing the epiglottis when you fall.
ON THE ONE EXTREME...
When we do sanchin thrusts, we are doing nothing more than shattering air molecules. This is essentially a no-load situation. The only load is internal resistance to movement.
ON THE OTHER EXTREME...
When we squat or bench a few hundred pounds or more, we now have a very high load situation. My contention is that we restrict the air a little bit. We do this to help tether the trunk when doing a whole body motion; that aids the transfer of energy from hips to shoulders. But like a good pressure cooker weight, we allow the air to escape when the pressure gets above a certain point. This causes a noise like what you hear from one of those kicking bags with an air vent (the vent restricts air just a bit). It's actually a lot like what you guys do with your TC breathing.
So...what's the connection between sanchin and fighting? Well when we are shattering air molecules, there's really not much need to relieve intrathoracic pressure. When we are hitting something...now it gets interesting. The first 90% of the motion is no load as our hand streaks to the target. But there is a sudden transition from high-velocity/no-load to near-zero-velocity/high-load as soon as the fist touches the target. That is when the pressure cooker weight needs to let air out (via this method). If not, then yes...bad things can happen. But in sanchin, we just breathe at the end of the strike.
Yes...it's a bit different in boxing. In boxing you have weights on the end of your hands. It isn't really no load there.
In fighting, this all gets very complex. The truth is that - as you know - sometimes it's hard to get a solid hit on the target. There may be a lot of feinting and juking and parrying. When you overcommit and miss, you may fall on your butt. But when the fist connects and penetrates, then you and I sound the same. If we are just doing a snapping motion where penetration isn't really the idea, then we may sound quite different.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quite frankly, one needs to transition quite a bit from sanchin to a real fight. At some point you need to hit something like a heavy bag. At some point you need to get out of the regular rhythm of sanchin.
We must remove the stencils and go freeform at some point. When we go freeform, we breathe when we need to take a breath. But just as breath-holding may be a bad thing in some situations, so too is hyperventillation - one entirely different manifestation of the chemical cocktail (and discussed by Scott above).
No matter how you look at it, we both agree that efficiently breathing the right amount is crucial.
- Bill
You make compelling points. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I'm not sure what your background is, Van. I once promised George I would write out mechanical models for all these scenarios (something biomedical engineers do all the time to make points and quantify effects of various physiologic processes). I'll do what I can to articulate what I'm thinking in light of your astute questions.Even as we don’t “valsalva” we still do breath retention to a certain extent when we don’t breathe out with the exertion of the movement! And this, according to Scott, increases intra-thoracic pressure.
TO START...
This isn't an all or nothing proposition by any means. Intrathoracic pressure increases (and decreases) all the time; it is a vital part of breathing. The point of respiratory muscles (primarily the diaphragm, but also the intercostals and others) is to create alternatly negative and then positive intrathoracic pressure. This in turn causes lung filling and lung emptying (breathing). Actually when one does forceful exhaling (like with your TC breathing), you are increasing intrathoracic pressure quite a bit. When one blows a horn, one increases intrathoracic pressure quite a bit. And yes, intrathoracic pressure increasing and decreasing will affect the blood vessels in the chest (primarily the vena cava, but also the heart and arteries to a smaller extent). This in turn causes a waxing and waning of the mean arterial and venous pressures throughout the body. (reference, my dissertation on Cardiopulmonary Rhythms).
The issue really isn't intrathoracic pressure increasing. A little bit is a good thing. A little bit of the wax and wane of chest pressure can enhance the circulation in a good way. The issue is too much intrathoracic pressure cased by things like closing the epiglottis when you are straining hard, closing the epiglottis when someone is hitting you in the gut, or closing the epiglottis when you fall.
ON THE ONE EXTREME...
When we do sanchin thrusts, we are doing nothing more than shattering air molecules. This is essentially a no-load situation. The only load is internal resistance to movement.
ON THE OTHER EXTREME...
When we squat or bench a few hundred pounds or more, we now have a very high load situation. My contention is that we restrict the air a little bit. We do this to help tether the trunk when doing a whole body motion; that aids the transfer of energy from hips to shoulders. But like a good pressure cooker weight, we allow the air to escape when the pressure gets above a certain point. This causes a noise like what you hear from one of those kicking bags with an air vent (the vent restricts air just a bit). It's actually a lot like what you guys do with your TC breathing.
So...what's the connection between sanchin and fighting? Well when we are shattering air molecules, there's really not much need to relieve intrathoracic pressure. When we are hitting something...now it gets interesting. The first 90% of the motion is no load as our hand streaks to the target. But there is a sudden transition from high-velocity/no-load to near-zero-velocity/high-load as soon as the fist touches the target. That is when the pressure cooker weight needs to let air out (via this method). If not, then yes...bad things can happen. But in sanchin, we just breathe at the end of the strike.
Yes...it's a bit different in boxing. In boxing you have weights on the end of your hands. It isn't really no load there.
In fighting, this all gets very complex. The truth is that - as you know - sometimes it's hard to get a solid hit on the target. There may be a lot of feinting and juking and parrying. When you overcommit and miss, you may fall on your butt. But when the fist connects and penetrates, then you and I sound the same. If we are just doing a snapping motion where penetration isn't really the idea, then we may sound quite different.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
We all stop our breath at some point; real breathing isn't a perfect sine wave.Here, are we nurturing a “stop breathing” situation in the anxiety/stress of a real fight
Quite frankly, one needs to transition quite a bit from sanchin to a real fight. At some point you need to hit something like a heavy bag. At some point you need to get out of the regular rhythm of sanchin.
We must remove the stencils and go freeform at some point. When we go freeform, we breathe when we need to take a breath. But just as breath-holding may be a bad thing in some situations, so too is hyperventillation - one entirely different manifestation of the chemical cocktail (and discussed by Scott above).
No matter how you look at it, we both agree that efficiently breathing the right amount is crucial.
- Bill
Belly Breathing !
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Scott
Never in all my time on these web pages have I seen someone articulate breathing with such physiologic correctness and precision of language. Nice job. I've posted a number of different points in the past that were included in your post. Nice to know that someone else read the same physiology texts.
BTW, ever heard of a respiratory physiology researcher with the last name of West? I believe one of the statements you made (greater gas exchange at lower lobes due to blood pooling from gravity) comes straight from some of his original work.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dear Bill,
I have not heard of West, but I'll definitely check into it. Most of my research bases upon the findings of several Russian doctors, such as Buteyko, Frolov, and Bernstein. Thanks for the good words, and reference.
Fraternal,
Scott
Scott
Never in all my time on these web pages have I seen someone articulate breathing with such physiologic correctness and precision of language. Nice job. I've posted a number of different points in the past that were included in your post. Nice to know that someone else read the same physiology texts.
BTW, ever heard of a respiratory physiology researcher with the last name of West? I believe one of the statements you made (greater gas exchange at lower lobes due to blood pooling from gravity) comes straight from some of his original work.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dear Bill,
I have not heard of West, but I'll definitely check into it. Most of my research bases upon the findings of several Russian doctors, such as Buteyko, Frolov, and Bernstein. Thanks for the good words, and reference.
Fraternal,
Scott
-
Rick Wilson
Belly Breathing !
Breathing, I love the subject and just can't stay out of the thread. So here is the breathing that I practice.
Pack Breathing:
The basis for my breathing is the Qigong practice of Pack Breathing. This can be found in Iron Shirt and Golden Bell training.
Pack breathing involves lower abdominal breathing or what has been called belly breathing but that is only a portion of it.
Pack breathing is the goal of the Sanchin position, although Sanchin is not required to perform it.
You pack breath by breathing deeply into the lower abdomen forcing the diaphragm downwards to compress the abdominal cavity. The goal is to create the same effect that a diving bell would use when going to the bottom of the ocean. The air pressure inside the bell has to be increased so that the weight/force of the ocean does not crush it. This is the same desired effect only it is the force of a blow that we are protecting ourselves from.
Pack breathing expands the abdominal area as well as a circle around the "waist" area. In addition the rib cage should pulled downward in an accordion fashion on the sides. This compresses the ribs together and makes them harder to break. The same "compression" can be done in the upper chest but (my preference) is not to concave the chest when doing it.
I relate pack breathing to creating a basketball of your body. It has a tough outer layer and absorbs blows. The muscles are used to create a tough outer skin; this is not a spongy surface.
Proper pack breathing will close off the solar plexus area. Doing proper pack breathing as high in the abdominal region as the solar plexus will take practice. To determine if you are successful place a finger on the tip of the xiphod process (the small triangular bone at the base of the sternum. Perform pack breathing and the abdominal muscles should be pushed outward to move your finger off the xiphod process and protect the solar plexus area. With proper pack breathing you should not be able to feel the xiphod process and this will allow you to withstand a blow to this sensitive area.
Reverse Breathing:
David Mott Sensei, my teacher, recommends only performing half of what is referred to as reverse breathing. Reverse breathing is fairly literal in that normally when you inhale your body expands and when you exhale your body contracts. On reverse breathing that process is - reversed. Full reverse breathing would have you contract on the inhale and expand on the exhale. David Mott Sensei only recommends performing the latter - expanding on the exhale. David Mott Sensei says that, while he has no documented evidence, he believes the contraction on the inhale create health problems. For me contracting on the inhale feels like it could hurt.
The expansion on the exhale is the martially useful portion of reverse breathing. Pack breathing protects us by having the pressure created by that deep abdominal breath, to lose that when we exhale would defeat its usefulness in self protection. Therefore, when we exhale we have an added pressure downwards to compensate for the natural emptying that would take place.
That Hiss:
The third breathing type that I am trying to reintroduce myself to is that hiss we hear Uechi people doing. For some time I did not see a purpose in the hiss and thought it let people know when I was breathing, something I did not want in a fight. I know that a common reason for doing it is to let your teacher know when you are breathing. Well, that just didn't work for me so I stopped doing it.
David Mott Sensei's hiss is very different from what I have previously experienced. When he hisses there is a "billows effect". (The following description is meant to depict the effect of this hiss and the reverse breathing that takes place. I say this because the action is an exhale while the description to follow clearly has air going into the body.) By "billows effect" I mean if someone place the tip of a billows in your mouth and then compressed the handles it would drive in a blast of air to your body expanding it outward with driving force. This has the effect of turbo charging your pack breathing and reinforcing your Sanchin position by a brief forceful explosion of reverse breathing. Now, David Mott Sensei also has further Qigong purposes for this hiss but I am afraid I am nowhere near being able to understand them let alone explain them.
I see this as a similar thing to a proper Kia, although I do not use a Kia in Uechi Ryu Kata. Often the comment used to explain why we do not Kia as Uechi practitioners is that to properly Kia you must expel all your breath into that focused, intent filled, spirit yell. Having expelled all your air there is nothing left to maintain your pack breathing and you are vulnerable. To me a proper Kia is done with reverse breathing, so that the expulsion is accompanied by a force of pressure driving downward reinforcing the pack breathing. This is why some styles Kia when they are struck to protect the body. Again, while I believe a good Kia is a useful tool I do not do it as part of my Uechi Ryu training.
When to breathe?
Another whole thread.
I follow what David Mott Sensei has taught me. In Sanchin Kata I do not breath on any action, only in-between. I try to use the hiss to reinforce my pack breathing and Sanchin position. (Reverse breathing is a given.)
In the other seven Kata I perform pack breathing and reverse breathing throughout. As to the when, I try to breath normally or when I have to. I also have a short exhale on most strikes, which of course then also dictates when I am breathing. On some absorption movements I try to inhale as I perform them. I do not, as yet, use the hiss often, but will use it when I feel I need to turbo charge or fortification of my pack breathing and Sanchin position.
Rick
Pack Breathing:
The basis for my breathing is the Qigong practice of Pack Breathing. This can be found in Iron Shirt and Golden Bell training.
Pack breathing involves lower abdominal breathing or what has been called belly breathing but that is only a portion of it.
Pack breathing is the goal of the Sanchin position, although Sanchin is not required to perform it.
You pack breath by breathing deeply into the lower abdomen forcing the diaphragm downwards to compress the abdominal cavity. The goal is to create the same effect that a diving bell would use when going to the bottom of the ocean. The air pressure inside the bell has to be increased so that the weight/force of the ocean does not crush it. This is the same desired effect only it is the force of a blow that we are protecting ourselves from.
Pack breathing expands the abdominal area as well as a circle around the "waist" area. In addition the rib cage should pulled downward in an accordion fashion on the sides. This compresses the ribs together and makes them harder to break. The same "compression" can be done in the upper chest but (my preference) is not to concave the chest when doing it.
I relate pack breathing to creating a basketball of your body. It has a tough outer layer and absorbs blows. The muscles are used to create a tough outer skin; this is not a spongy surface.
Proper pack breathing will close off the solar plexus area. Doing proper pack breathing as high in the abdominal region as the solar plexus will take practice. To determine if you are successful place a finger on the tip of the xiphod process (the small triangular bone at the base of the sternum. Perform pack breathing and the abdominal muscles should be pushed outward to move your finger off the xiphod process and protect the solar plexus area. With proper pack breathing you should not be able to feel the xiphod process and this will allow you to withstand a blow to this sensitive area.
Reverse Breathing:
David Mott Sensei, my teacher, recommends only performing half of what is referred to as reverse breathing. Reverse breathing is fairly literal in that normally when you inhale your body expands and when you exhale your body contracts. On reverse breathing that process is - reversed. Full reverse breathing would have you contract on the inhale and expand on the exhale. David Mott Sensei only recommends performing the latter - expanding on the exhale. David Mott Sensei says that, while he has no documented evidence, he believes the contraction on the inhale create health problems. For me contracting on the inhale feels like it could hurt.
The expansion on the exhale is the martially useful portion of reverse breathing. Pack breathing protects us by having the pressure created by that deep abdominal breath, to lose that when we exhale would defeat its usefulness in self protection. Therefore, when we exhale we have an added pressure downwards to compensate for the natural emptying that would take place.
That Hiss:
The third breathing type that I am trying to reintroduce myself to is that hiss we hear Uechi people doing. For some time I did not see a purpose in the hiss and thought it let people know when I was breathing, something I did not want in a fight. I know that a common reason for doing it is to let your teacher know when you are breathing. Well, that just didn't work for me so I stopped doing it.
David Mott Sensei's hiss is very different from what I have previously experienced. When he hisses there is a "billows effect". (The following description is meant to depict the effect of this hiss and the reverse breathing that takes place. I say this because the action is an exhale while the description to follow clearly has air going into the body.) By "billows effect" I mean if someone place the tip of a billows in your mouth and then compressed the handles it would drive in a blast of air to your body expanding it outward with driving force. This has the effect of turbo charging your pack breathing and reinforcing your Sanchin position by a brief forceful explosion of reverse breathing. Now, David Mott Sensei also has further Qigong purposes for this hiss but I am afraid I am nowhere near being able to understand them let alone explain them.
I see this as a similar thing to a proper Kia, although I do not use a Kia in Uechi Ryu Kata. Often the comment used to explain why we do not Kia as Uechi practitioners is that to properly Kia you must expel all your breath into that focused, intent filled, spirit yell. Having expelled all your air there is nothing left to maintain your pack breathing and you are vulnerable. To me a proper Kia is done with reverse breathing, so that the expulsion is accompanied by a force of pressure driving downward reinforcing the pack breathing. This is why some styles Kia when they are struck to protect the body. Again, while I believe a good Kia is a useful tool I do not do it as part of my Uechi Ryu training.
When to breathe?
Another whole thread.
I follow what David Mott Sensei has taught me. In Sanchin Kata I do not breath on any action, only in-between. I try to use the hiss to reinforce my pack breathing and Sanchin position. (Reverse breathing is a given.)
In the other seven Kata I perform pack breathing and reverse breathing throughout. As to the when, I try to breath normally or when I have to. I also have a short exhale on most strikes, which of course then also dictates when I am breathing. On some absorption movements I try to inhale as I perform them. I do not, as yet, use the hiss often, but will use it when I feel I need to turbo charge or fortification of my pack breathing and Sanchin position.
Rick
Belly Breathing !
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Perhaps in discussing this with Scott, we should lay out for him the so called Uechi Breathing Method. I am not sure that Uechi breathing matches this dysfunctional method. Yet when we breathe in between techniques [exertions] _ what do we do with our breath [air in our lungs] during the exertion of a strike in kata or defensive encounter?
Even as we don’t “valsalva” we still do breath retention to a certain extent when we don’t breathe out with the exertion of the movement! And this, according to Scott, increases intra-thoracic pressure.
Here, are we nurturing a “stop breathing” situation in the anxiety/stress of a real fight__ by our withholding of exhalation until our technique concludes, in both kata and two men applications?
This is precisely what I see in some Dan tests when candidates stop breathing and turn red and purple. Older ones on the floor look like they are about to have a heart attack. Pretty scary.
Wonder what Scott thinks of the typical display of “Uechi breathing” during kata performance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In the former Soviet Union, I studied quite a few different respiratory enhancement methods, including but not limited to Frolov's endogenic breathing. On of the respirator enhancement methodologies included hypoxic enhancement. Here's a link with some cursory information:
http://www.intellectbreathing.com/hypoxic.en.php
One of the challenges with hypoxic enhancement, as my colleague Pavel Tsatsouline could well elaborate, is in the intracranial pressure created through strain. Because people do not have respiratory coaches, they are taught breathing IDEAS rather than effective and SAFE respiratory methods. In this case, people place all of the pressure at the glottis in order to attempt to increase intra-abdominal pressure, the intra-cranial back pressure becomes enormous and highly dangerous (accounting for the purple faces, even demonstrated by practitioners of 30 and 40 years.)
I don't advise this at all without a trained respiratory coach present physically. However, the only advise I could provide to those that insist upon ignoring that caveat is to relax the face and mouth totally while breath retention maximizes post inhalation. There WILL be exhalatory seapage, but it is minimal, while the intra-abdominal muscular recruitment becomes maximal.
From what you have described of the Uechi Breathing Method, it can be highly effective, IF trained properly and safely.
There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but then again, there's more than one mountain.
Fraternal,
Scott
[This message has been edited by Sonnon (edited January 17, 2002).]
Perhaps in discussing this with Scott, we should lay out for him the so called Uechi Breathing Method. I am not sure that Uechi breathing matches this dysfunctional method. Yet when we breathe in between techniques [exertions] _ what do we do with our breath [air in our lungs] during the exertion of a strike in kata or defensive encounter?
Even as we don’t “valsalva” we still do breath retention to a certain extent when we don’t breathe out with the exertion of the movement! And this, according to Scott, increases intra-thoracic pressure.
Here, are we nurturing a “stop breathing” situation in the anxiety/stress of a real fight__ by our withholding of exhalation until our technique concludes, in both kata and two men applications?
This is precisely what I see in some Dan tests when candidates stop breathing and turn red and purple. Older ones on the floor look like they are about to have a heart attack. Pretty scary.
Wonder what Scott thinks of the typical display of “Uechi breathing” during kata performance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In the former Soviet Union, I studied quite a few different respiratory enhancement methods, including but not limited to Frolov's endogenic breathing. On of the respirator enhancement methodologies included hypoxic enhancement. Here's a link with some cursory information:
http://www.intellectbreathing.com/hypoxic.en.php
One of the challenges with hypoxic enhancement, as my colleague Pavel Tsatsouline could well elaborate, is in the intracranial pressure created through strain. Because people do not have respiratory coaches, they are taught breathing IDEAS rather than effective and SAFE respiratory methods. In this case, people place all of the pressure at the glottis in order to attempt to increase intra-abdominal pressure, the intra-cranial back pressure becomes enormous and highly dangerous (accounting for the purple faces, even demonstrated by practitioners of 30 and 40 years.)
I don't advise this at all without a trained respiratory coach present physically. However, the only advise I could provide to those that insist upon ignoring that caveat is to relax the face and mouth totally while breath retention maximizes post inhalation. There WILL be exhalatory seapage, but it is minimal, while the intra-abdominal muscular recruitment becomes maximal.
From what you have described of the Uechi Breathing Method, it can be highly effective, IF trained properly and safely.
There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but then again, there's more than one mountain.
Fraternal,
Scott
[This message has been edited by Sonnon (edited January 17, 2002).]
-
Stryke
Belly Breathing !
Thank you for the great Post Rick , was great to see it all written down made me think , I agree toatally with your method
Can anyone out there explain why many people styles do the hiss ? , Ive witnessed it myself and seen some ridiculous extremes , I still havent found a use for it though , except to show your examiner your breathing .
nothing funnier to enter a class and see them all puffin and panting like some bad porno movie .
anyone enlighten me ?
Stryke
Can anyone out there explain why many people styles do the hiss ? , Ive witnessed it myself and seen some ridiculous extremes , I still havent found a use for it though , except to show your examiner your breathing .
nothing funnier to enter a class and see them all puffin and panting like some bad porno movie .
anyone enlighten me ?
Stryke
-
Allen M.
Belly Breathing !
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
That is definitely not the same hiss I hear all the time. GEM often says hissing lets the instructor know you are breathing, which is a good thing because it helps prevents the student from turning blue and passing out.David Mott Sensei's hiss is very different from what I have previously experienced. When he hisses there is a "billows effect".
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
