After many years of studying "Uechiryu Karate" and a touching base on a few other arts, i had not been familier with the term or concept of "1/4 second timing". Having first been introduced to the concept at the "Summer Camp" by Roy Bedard, and rescently going over it briefly once again at the Feb. N.E.Regional Workout, i have found it to be and interesting item.
I have not seen any dojo's i have worked out in ever speak of it or paractice it. Ever wonder sometimes how an opponent beats you often with speed. Could t be this principle that is overlookek or sometimes not understood ?
What are your thoughts ? Pracice it ? Understand it ? Believe in it ? Teach it ? I feel that it is also another valuabe tool that is positive step to ones improvement.
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Gary S.
1/4 second timing !
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GSantaniello
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1/4 second timing !
Gary,
I too, wasn’t familiar with the term “1/4 sec reaction”, but; it all started to fall into place as I was doing traditional opposed maneuvers. These are the ones in which the participants touch the back of their hands before attempting to hit one another (a la; Han’s tournament in “Enter the Dragon”).
Because one is standing so close to your opponent, if you don’t go off of the touch and attempt to rely on sight, ... well, let’s say, it’s not pretty... (this is where I truly learned that two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, my head and the fist of my opponent
).
If before launching an attack, one can truly not telegraph technique and are within range, the impact is a beautiful moment. (martial arts speaking
)
nick
I too, wasn’t familiar with the term “1/4 sec reaction”, but; it all started to fall into place as I was doing traditional opposed maneuvers. These are the ones in which the participants touch the back of their hands before attempting to hit one another (a la; Han’s tournament in “Enter the Dragon”).
Because one is standing so close to your opponent, if you don’t go off of the touch and attempt to rely on sight, ... well, let’s say, it’s not pretty... (this is where I truly learned that two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, my head and the fist of my opponent
).If before launching an attack, one can truly not telegraph technique and are within range, the impact is a beautiful moment. (martial arts speaking
)nick
1/4 second timing !
Here is a good example of it.
http://sutemi.org/php/download.php?op=mydown&did=39
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Van Canna
http://sutemi.org/php/download.php?op=mydown&did=39
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Van Canna
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
1/4 second timing !
Nice video, Van.
I counted 8 frames from first telegraph to final impact. Considering the 8th frame was mid impact, that would put the actual time between 7 and 8 frames. If we assume NTSC standard (30 frames per second), that would put the time between 0.23 and 0.27 seconds. Imagine that!!!
The interesting thing I noted about that sequence was that the opponent was in time with the attackers movements - frame by frame - but missed the actual palm heel coming forward. Wierd!!
I also noted some interesting items here.
* The palm heel has to warm Van's heart!
* There is some interesting coordination between forward movement (stepping and such) and the actual attack. I like the way he moves. I try to teach that type of "break timing" to people, but some folks just have no rhythm...
* Note how the attacker takes advantage of flow from the kick and a "bounce" to apply some plyometric action to the movement. While the defender couldn't see the hand coming, he should have anticipated the attack. But then that's his butt in the ring and not mine.
* Nice application of a fundamental of sanchin - the ippon comes off the rear foot.
Now to Gary and his concerns...
I think the bottom line, Gary, is that it takes you a quarter second to react to something, unless you employ other methods for reading the opponent. If you're going to be that close, then you ought to:
1) be in contact to take advantage of shorter neural pathways of reaction,
2) hit first,
3) read and anticipate the attacker's intent from the whole body movement (this ippon required quite a windup, that started long before the quarter second reverse palm heel commenced), and
4) take advantage of this human weakness by learning to go from start to finish within a quarter of a second.
- Bill
I counted 8 frames from first telegraph to final impact. Considering the 8th frame was mid impact, that would put the actual time between 7 and 8 frames. If we assume NTSC standard (30 frames per second), that would put the time between 0.23 and 0.27 seconds. Imagine that!!!
The interesting thing I noted about that sequence was that the opponent was in time with the attackers movements - frame by frame - but missed the actual palm heel coming forward. Wierd!!
I also noted some interesting items here.
* The palm heel has to warm Van's heart!
* There is some interesting coordination between forward movement (stepping and such) and the actual attack. I like the way he moves. I try to teach that type of "break timing" to people, but some folks just have no rhythm...
* Note how the attacker takes advantage of flow from the kick and a "bounce" to apply some plyometric action to the movement. While the defender couldn't see the hand coming, he should have anticipated the attack. But then that's his butt in the ring and not mine.
* Nice application of a fundamental of sanchin - the ippon comes off the rear foot.
Now to Gary and his concerns...
I think the bottom line, Gary, is that it takes you a quarter second to react to something, unless you employ other methods for reading the opponent. If you're going to be that close, then you ought to:
1) be in contact to take advantage of shorter neural pathways of reaction,
2) hit first,
3) read and anticipate the attacker's intent from the whole body movement (this ippon required quite a windup, that started long before the quarter second reverse palm heel commenced), and
4) take advantage of this human weakness by learning to go from start to finish within a quarter of a second.
- Bill
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GSantaniello
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
1/4 second timing !
Yes Van, the clip diplays a nice "set up". Surley the palm heel has become a favorite to many.
Nick, i remember that "hand drill" well. As kids we use to "punish" eachother with it until one gave up.That is the type of "explosivenes" one must release.
Bill, for the 1/4 second timing to work yes, i understand making it work from "closeness" although i believe the "average" timing to deliver is more of 1/2 second (reaction time) and the 1/4 sec. is the timing most difficult to deflect. Regardless of distance.
A drill that we worked on was "closing the distance" as the opponent attacked from sparring distance (few feet) the person defending worked on "meeting" the attacker half way into their attack. Therefore cutting their timing in half and beating their timin and distancing.
That old saying, go when he goes ! As you refer, not all can make it work. But, it is nice when it does. Then the follow up is right there also.
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Gary S.
Nick, i remember that "hand drill" well. As kids we use to "punish" eachother with it until one gave up.That is the type of "explosivenes" one must release.
Bill, for the 1/4 second timing to work yes, i understand making it work from "closeness" although i believe the "average" timing to deliver is more of 1/2 second (reaction time) and the 1/4 sec. is the timing most difficult to deflect. Regardless of distance.
A drill that we worked on was "closing the distance" as the opponent attacked from sparring distance (few feet) the person defending worked on "meeting" the attacker half way into their attack. Therefore cutting their timing in half and beating their timin and distancing.
That old saying, go when he goes ! As you refer, not all can make it work. But, it is nice when it does. Then the follow up is right there also.
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Gary S.
1/4 second timing !
Hi Bill,
Nice analysis, you are right on target with your inch-by-inch study of the movements by the fighters.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
We should drill at close quarters more often than not, as the cry of the instructor <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In a street fight the problem is that the distance is already “closed” __ remember that distance on the street is not an option at times_ which leaves us with a serious problem to deal with.
If a shot is fired as you see in the clip at close quarters, 90% or better __ it will connect even if partially intercepted.
Once you get hit like that, solid or semisolid, the whole world takes on a different look..While your opponent cocks the next shot.
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Van Canna
Nice analysis, you are right on target with your inch-by-inch study of the movements by the fighters.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Very true. Roy explained that the quarter second “reaction” is at the high end. Mostly it is half a second or so by an average trained martial artist_ and the reaction time can very well increase to ¾ or even a full second, under extreme SNS influence and negative emotions navigating from mind to body. [Blauer]I think the bottom line, Gary, is that it takes you a quarter second to react to something, unless you employ other methods for reading the opponent.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is what takes much training, or should take up lots of dojo time, but it doesn’t because of the long range we espouse in prearranged work.take advantage of this human weakness by learning to go from start to finish within a quarter of a second.
We should drill at close quarters more often than not, as the cry of the instructor <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
is almost never a solid option in the fluid dynamics of a street fight.Keep your distance
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Yes..Roy did a fine job of demonstrating the principle. But we must remember that it was from a “dueling” distance, such as in competition.A drill that we worked on was "closing the distance" as the opponent attacked from sparring distance (few feet) the person defending worked on "meeting" the attacker half way into their attack. Therefore cutting their timing in half and beating their timing and distancing.
In a street fight the problem is that the distance is already “closed” __ remember that distance on the street is not an option at times_ which leaves us with a serious problem to deal with.
If a shot is fired as you see in the clip at close quarters, 90% or better __ it will connect even if partially intercepted.
Once you get hit like that, solid or semisolid, the whole world takes on a different look..While your opponent cocks the next shot.
------------------
Van Canna
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
1/4 second timing !
Very true.
Truth be told, I'm betting that the very solid roundhouse - even if fully blocked - made the fellow a little shell shocked. That's the advantage of those Thai boxers, and the likes of folks like Yonamine sensei. It doesn't really matter if they penetrate with their kicks. The brutal impact of all that energy kind of takes the starch out of the opponent. It reminds me once of a motorcycle accident I was in. My bike and I bounced off a car (at high speed) and then skidded dozens of feet down the road. I was conscious the whole time, but... A little later someone came by and told me to hold still (assuming I had just broken my back or something) and I suddenly realized I probably looked a little stupid just staying on the ground like that, looking at the car I just hit. It's sort of like that deer-in-the-headlamps reaction.
I think it's wonderful to have all that speed. I've had a few martial arts instructors (like Hiroshi Hamada and Rad Smith) who had that kind of blinding speed. I was a big fan of Nolan Ryan. I think we should - and can - train to deliver close-quarter techniques that go from posture to contact within the human limits to react to them. But I do have a few comments.
* Ever wonder how professional athletes hit a major league fastball? Think about it. Do you really think they wait for the ball to come near the plate before commencing their swing? Absolutely not. Most decent athletes eventually can perform the extremely difficult task of hitting an 80 or 90 mph fastball. You don't do it on speed; it takes anticipation, timing, and then subtle course corrections.
* Rad used to go on and on about Bobby Campbell in the days he taught me Uechi ryu. Rad was as tall as Bobby. Rad was stronger than Bobby. Rad was much faster than Bobby (frighteningly fast for a large man...). But as Rad put it, "He knew what you were going to do before you did it." This - in my opinion - is where the partner exercises (DOING things WITH someone...) and time in the sparring ring pay off. Watch that clip again. If you look carefully, frame by frame, you will see the flow of energy. You will see that the attacker followed a logical sequence of movements, and essentially took advantage of simple principles of physiology. Just as the outfielder anticipates the parabolic path of a fly ball, so too can an experienced athlete, street fighter, law enforcement officer, and fighting genius like Bobby know that something bad is coming down long before the "trigger" is pulled.
It's the only hope we mere mortals have...
- Bill
Truth be told, I'm betting that the very solid roundhouse - even if fully blocked - made the fellow a little shell shocked. That's the advantage of those Thai boxers, and the likes of folks like Yonamine sensei. It doesn't really matter if they penetrate with their kicks. The brutal impact of all that energy kind of takes the starch out of the opponent. It reminds me once of a motorcycle accident I was in. My bike and I bounced off a car (at high speed) and then skidded dozens of feet down the road. I was conscious the whole time, but... A little later someone came by and told me to hold still (assuming I had just broken my back or something) and I suddenly realized I probably looked a little stupid just staying on the ground like that, looking at the car I just hit. It's sort of like that deer-in-the-headlamps reaction.
I think it's wonderful to have all that speed. I've had a few martial arts instructors (like Hiroshi Hamada and Rad Smith) who had that kind of blinding speed. I was a big fan of Nolan Ryan. I think we should - and can - train to deliver close-quarter techniques that go from posture to contact within the human limits to react to them. But I do have a few comments.
* Ever wonder how professional athletes hit a major league fastball? Think about it. Do you really think they wait for the ball to come near the plate before commencing their swing? Absolutely not. Most decent athletes eventually can perform the extremely difficult task of hitting an 80 or 90 mph fastball. You don't do it on speed; it takes anticipation, timing, and then subtle course corrections.
* Rad used to go on and on about Bobby Campbell in the days he taught me Uechi ryu. Rad was as tall as Bobby. Rad was stronger than Bobby. Rad was much faster than Bobby (frighteningly fast for a large man...). But as Rad put it, "He knew what you were going to do before you did it." This - in my opinion - is where the partner exercises (DOING things WITH someone...) and time in the sparring ring pay off. Watch that clip again. If you look carefully, frame by frame, you will see the flow of energy. You will see that the attacker followed a logical sequence of movements, and essentially took advantage of simple principles of physiology. Just as the outfielder anticipates the parabolic path of a fly ball, so too can an experienced athlete, street fighter, law enforcement officer, and fighting genius like Bobby know that something bad is coming down long before the "trigger" is pulled.
It's the only hope we mere mortals have...
- Bill
