Molded Black Belts !

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 11:08 pm

Over the years i have met many very talented advanced Dan ranks from various dojo's. I have also met several that are "molded" into a "one way" mentallity that they find it most difficult and sometimes impossible to adjust to variations of techniques.

While it is good to work towards efficiency and accuracy through repititious movements, the rigidity in somes mindset hinder ones abilty to exceed to deeper understanding of what the art has to offer.

As we have disscussed many times, one way does not work equally for all. So why do some resist adjustments that are offered to them through teaching ?

Could it be that some organizational structures do not allow flexibilty in application or that multiple understanding is to confusing for some ?

Respectfully,

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Gary S.

candan · Post by **candan** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 11:25 pm

See this often as well. Another way seems to mean to them that they must have been doing it the wrong way, they are unable to accept anything but betterment (is that a word?) of what they already know. They will always peel a banana from the "right" end

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 1:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So why do some resist adjustments that are offered to them through teaching ?

If it's not broke then why fix it? That's what I often understand as to be part of the equation.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:48 pm

I think the reasons why some are so rigid really vary.

* Sometimes the student's instructor is narrow-minded. Usually such instructors know very little about their martial art. It's one thing to find a "best way" for a single individual (themselves); it's quite something else to understand what would be best for someone different from yourself. Great practitioners sometimes don't make great masters because they don't understand this concept, or never study their art enough to appreciate the range and depth.

* Sometimes the student has a narrow view. Why would this be? Often it's just a lack of maturity of thinking or understanding. Beginners have way too much to thinking about to be worrying about multiple ways to approach a set of techniques, apply a concept, or interpret a move in a kata. I've learned to keep it simple with white belts. Do it this way... But with advanced belts, I show them the many possibilities when it appears they have the fundamentals down. The maturity comes not with more memorization of specifics, but a deeper understanding of the underlying principles that tie things together.

* Occasionally the issue is just a simple mind. There was a classic episode in Star Trek the Next Generation, where Captain Picard is trying to develop the "human" side of Data by having him act Shakespeare. Data recites a few lines from a classic, and then tells the captain that it was an amalgam of 4 different performances done by 4 different artists on specific days. The concept of coming up with his own way was completely lost on him. It became obvious to Picard that he was failing with his teaching device.

Sadly the same is true for many martial arts practitioners; they don't understand that the person breathes life into the style, and not the other way around. It's also true that many instructors never understand that they must guide their students rather than create an army of clones. Boundaries, yes, but no straightjackets.

- Bill

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:07 pm

Allen,

"If it's not broke, why fix it" ?

Is a common statement with much truth to it. However, as I'm sure you will agree, there are many ways to get the same results. All things "do not" work equally for all students, soe "ust" adjust along the way as part of development.

Bill G.

Excellent comments as i agree completely. Surely white belts and kyu ranks have plenty to absorb without complicating it more for them. It is the "Advanced Dan Ranks" that we refer to regarding deeper understanding of what we are doing.

Anyone can "robotically" go through the same regimented movements time after time. However, making these blocks and counter strikes work with accuracy, distancing, timimng, power and the neccesarry "adjustments" in many cases present quite a different situation.

How many have we seen not able to block powerful straight punchs or front kicks with "intent" even knowing before hand what is coming ?

Higher Dan Ranks must constantly strive to understand the depth of the art. That is what seperates them from the rest. Does it not ?

Respectfully,

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Gary S.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:10 am

Hi Gary.

I find most people do not like to experiment-around with things in their life when they setle into something comfortable.

Others go so far as state that what they are doing is the right way and all others are wrong.

Still others have egoitis problems, which relate to the above paragraph.

Others are afraid to change, insecure.

Others have senseis that know only one way and they follow their senseis without fail.

If one has a successful dojo then why change?

I'm flexible in my teaching methods and ideas and change to meet changing needs, BUT I like what I do, how I do it, found M key, and wouldn't think of changing my way for no love nor money so I also must be guilty !!!

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:45 am

Allen,

Whatever works for you ! Obviously one does not want a dojo were students are inconsistent and doing things differntly.

I do not mean as to suggest such. I remember many years back hearing some black belts state with belief that, there is nothing left to learn. It is the same stuff class after class.

Another rank only means you learn another kata. These are "limited" minded people. Are they not ?

Allen, with all do respect, after one has been around for 15 to 20 plus years, learning is within the individual to grasp as much from as many as he/she can and make it work for them.

There is a saying: "The same but different" many movements look the same in kata when being done in a group. Although the "Bunkie" application may be taught to mean one thing, does not mean it can not be used as another.

Yes, the same but different.

Respectfully,

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Gary S.

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> By Gary Santaniello
Obviously one does not want a dojo were students are inconsistent and doing things differntly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> By Bill Glasheen
It's one thing to find a "best way" for a single individual (themselves); it's quite something else to understand what would be best for someone different from yourself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>by Gary Santaneiello
How many have we seen not able to block powerful straight punchs or front kicks with "intent" even knowing before hand what is coming ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gary, we should have our students doing things differently for all the reasons stated in the above quotes.

As a teacher, I can not teach everyone to perform as I do, unless they are all my size.

I might teach a tall person to throw a front kick instead of blocking a hard punch if it comes from a smaller person. I might teach a person of my stature to perform a tai sabaki step while executing a strong palm heel parry and reverse shuto, especially if it comes form a taller person.

We must teach our students to use what will work for them. They must find the techniques that they can perform well and refine them until they work. Some will have different methods due to their size and or ability.

The student must be aware that the same techniques that I use may not work for them and visa versa. They must also be willing to experiment.

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Len

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:
Of course, modifying just for the sake of modifying (see MicroSoft Anything) is NOT a good idea! There must be a reason, after all<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the $oftware indu$try, there i$ alway$ a good rea$on for modifying ju$t for the $ake of modifying. Gotta keep people upgrading to the late$t and greate$t after all.

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

Sensei Kunz · Post by **Sensei Kunz** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:28 am

Just an opinion!

I personally think for beginners you must start somewhere. To be able to expand, one must first have a foundation. No one can grow if they do not understand.

It is important for anyone in the arts to have some foundation prior to growth. An instructor then may suggest other options for improvements for each individual student.

The student then may experiment and start their own self-expression in the arts. Nobody wants clones. The world would be a very boring place. It is the ideas and theories of others that give us the chance to develop and explore.

So goes the saying: "Use what is useful and discard what is not!"
http://selfdefenseforyou.com

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Sensei Kunz
Jeet Kune Do
Instructor http://selfdefenseforyou.com

[This message has been edited by Sensei Kunz (edited February 06, 2002).]

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If it's not broke then why fix it? That's what I often understand as to be part of the equation.

[/QUOTE]

To ADD value, much like a software revision, perhaps?

Photoshop started out as a pretty basic retouching program, but with little else going for it. After several revisions, in which the basis of the program's functionality was kept, the enhancements made it into the "killer app" it is today.

It was not by subtracting, but by ADDING functionality to the basic concepts that made it into the useful and industry standard product it is today. (yes, I know that they took out a couple of things, but they were not central to the working of the program, but more like bells and whistles items - it's an analogy, not a direct comparison after all).

By maintaining the core of the style or system, yet adding on advantages and staying up to date with scientific knowledge, a style can only improve.

By adjusting teaching techniques, practice routines and adding things like attitudinal training and emotional toughening, a style becomes more efficient and, hence, even more what its founders intended it to be - a viable means for both self-defense and personal growth.

Of course, modifying just for the sake of modifying (see MicroSoft Anything) is NOT a good idea! There must be a reason, after all.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

turbotort2000 · Post by **turbotort2000** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:07 pm

I think the most important thing that each and every person who studies martial arts must understand is that in the end you and you alone are responible for your training and achievment in the martial arts. It is a copeout to blame your style instructor, schedule and other things. With the acception of geographical location you have more control over those varibles than anyone else in your training process. If you don't feel your system is helping you progess--find a way to fix it or switch schools. If you feel you cannot learn from a particular instructor than why do you study with him or her?
Free will is a paramount concept in martial arts and if you are in a school that incourages mimicing than it is true you will grow at a much slower pace than students at other schools. But on the same thought realize that every though, theory, or concept you come across has been mulled over tried tested and theorized by countless others long before you ever thought of it. Martial arts have been around for such a long time that it is probable that most if not nearly all theories have been more than adequately tested meaning that some mimicing is good because all the creases on some strategies and techiques have been ironed out and reinvestigating them is kicking a dead horse so to speak. That makes the question you posted a little more difficult. When is it good to do something exactly how it is presented and when is it good to experiment a little bit.
Always putting saftey at the forefront, it is a great idea to experiment as much as it takes one to understand why (not how why), and as little as it takes to wander so far off on a tangent that you lose sight of the starting point.
On a seperate thought though, realize that many martial artists study for the socialization benefits of belonging to a school. Its more of a club with memebers who make an extream effort to fit and feel comfortable. They dress the same speak the same and train the same. If that is what they want more power to them. Socialization is one of the most common reasons why martial arts clubs exist. Like belonging to a chess club that doesn't cover stategy or a biking club that is not competitive.
What you are going to find though is that under all the ritualzation and blind confominty is that someone somewhere in most of those orginazations has a piece of information that you want. Someone who came from another school, someone who is more flexible than his immediate enviroment, or someone who is creatively inclined. The real trick is learning how to dig for that information when you are in their school.
When I was in that situation I would float to as many people as I could using my judgement on who I thought would help the most and maybe slip in a variation ask a question about application or just look dumbfounded. I almost always found something I wanted to know to by doing that.
If they are visiting your school and they came from a rigid background they are there to trade ideas and break out of their mold for that one day. If they weren't why would they be there in the first place. That senerio is much easier. Just ask questions and keep probing. Believe me when I tell that if they were there because they wanted to explore other avenues and were curious. Very rarely will you get a guy who is there just to show off his system and be oblivous to what is happening in your school. If they won't talk you gotta ask.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:37 pm

No, no, Gary.

I wasn't stating what I do, not by a longshot. I merely listed observations, observations which are much more common than not. The first part of this writing is what I do and the second part deals directly with the query of your initial post.

I go by the book for my framework and formulate themes for my students around that framework. I set long-term goals, mid-range goals, and short term goals and have my students adopt those goals as their own. They know the program and what to expect for the year and for the month. However, my classes are seldom the same from night to night, but that is not inconsistency, rather breaks up the monotony.

For instance, the theme for 2002 is developing the lower body. I vary the classes and change the exercises, but one class leads into the next and the student moves forward without boredom.

My dojo's sub-theme for February and March is Kanshiwa. Not one class has been the same so far and yet consistency permeates the atmosphere. We've heavily explored the fighting usefulness of Kanshiwa as well as other aspects of that kata. Kanshiwa has exposed a few new goodies to this 27+ year Uechi veteran, and when the light bulb goes on I give it to my students without holding anything back. Some evenings are rote and sweaty while other evenings are laid-back with a mini-seminar flavor.

Uechi cannot be taught like Taekwondo. Taekwondo is a very hard aggressive style and must be proctored in a very regimented discipline manner, quite the opposite of Uechi. TKD is one place where there is often little for personal freedom of expression as is allowed in Uechi.

Many TKDists are… <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

“molded” into a "one way" mentallity that they find it most difficult and sometimes impossible to adjust to variations of techniques.

…and that’s a good thing when it is like that because it takes a lot of rote sweat to get good at hard, high, and fast kicks with little or no exception. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

While it is good to work towards efficiency and accuracy through repititious movements, the rigidity in somes mindset hinder ones abilty to exceed to deeper understanding of what the art has to offer.

It all depends on what you are going for. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So why do some resist adjustments that are offered to them through teaching ?

in the numerous dojang/dojo I’ve been a part of through the years there usually seems to be one piece of the equation that is exponentially obvious: ego. Another attribute of sorts is that if it works and works well, don’t break it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Could it be that some organizational structures do not allow flexibilty in application or that multiple understanding is to confusing for some ?

In TKD it is often Sabunim’s way or the highway. In Uechi I claim the 5th.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:44 am

Turbo,

Thank you for your input. I could not agree with you more that it is within the "individual" who must seek out and develop ones art. One can teach all the material they know, however, it is the students responsibility to expand upon it and develop efficiency.

Allen.

Stepping "out of the box" is essential in developing ones abilities. Tonight we spent 2 & 1/2 hrs. in class working on "depth" of material. Not "quanity". It was one of our best classes.

Rushing through material in class to see how much can be covered in a limited amount of time is not as productive as less material in more depth.

I'm sure you would agree !

Respectfully,

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Gary S.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 12:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Stepping "out of the box" is essential in developing ones abilities. Tonight we spent 2 & 1/2 hrs. in class working on "depth" of material. Not "quanity". It was one of our best classes.
Rushing through material in class to see how much can be covered in a limited amount of time is not as productive as less material in more depth.
I'm sure you would agree !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, Gary, I do not agree. What is essential in developing one’s abilities is to establish a plan or multiple parallel plans and follow through. One class tells nothing. One month’s worth of classes tells something, one year’s worth of classes tells something even more, and years of…

One must define “quantity,” “depth,” “Rushing through,” “Limited amount of time,” “not as productive,” “less material,” and “more depth” and then I will analyze the meaning of those two paragraphs in depth because those words are qualitative and mean different things to different people.

Allen

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera