forms or "katas"
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forms or "katas"
I learned many Katas from two arts. I taught for 20 years fighting in my mind--forms or no forms. I feel I have reached the right conclusion and that is no forms! Now I know you di-hards in forms will argue, but why? If that is the road you choice to follow, so be it. But this is why I picked my road. You always have to memorize forms and don't practice for a while and you forget things. Being 5'2", I found in forms, techniques that I hated but had to do, techniques that did not fit me but I had to do, and techniques that I loved, but was buried deep within the form. So, my art teaches just techniques and principles. But to replace pre-set forms, we use "free-form". That is: A student learns techniques and principles up to three belts, then he is introduced to "free form". At first he is lost and then with instruction, he catches on. In free form you visulize attackers in all ways, fist, kicks, weapons, grabs, etc. coming at you. You react with speed, focus, precision and power, as if fighting real foes. In this way you practice you favorite moves and what comes out of you is natural. Of couse less liked techniques will come out also, but not as much as your best techniques. In a street confortation, if needed, a student would just go into "free form" and his self-defense would be flowing and powerful. I have had extreme success with this type of training. Although many of you are in the "Kata mind set", that is quite all right. I just wanted to share the a little about the road I have taken. Yours in Martial Arts, Sensei Mc Dowell
forms or "katas"
Aiki, From what you have conveyed in your post I would have to conclude you have never had the fortune of having a real "teacher". An effective martial dicipline is subtlely complicated.On the surface it can appear simple in it's manifestation,consisting of relitively simple appearing physical techniques which can be aquired with little practice.It is the "IT" behind those techniques,the impetus of a spirited mental and physical effort that pays value to the endevour.It's the "trip" dude,not the destination.Rewards experienced from years of dedicated effort.Fruits gleaned from associations with individuals who have spent a life time of involvement that allow you to experience that which you could not by your self....Diciplined structure and effort is the requirement for "real" sucess.The free form you speak of is nothing more than a mental tossed salad driving technique lacking any elevation above exercise!
forms or "katas"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aiki:
In free form you visulize attackers in all ways, fist, kicks, weapons, grabs, etc. coming at you. You react with speed, focus, precision and power, as if fighting real foes. Yours in Martial Arts, Sensei Mc Dowell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aiki,
The trouble with the free form is that the student is responding to his own imagination with, 99%+ of the time, absolutely no experience to base it on. This results in training for "Matrix" and living "ER".
I can't speak with authority to all kata, I've never seriously studied karate, but the kata I am familiar with (two man JJ kata of Sosui****su-ryu) are without a doubt, the most brutal applications of technique I've yet seen. They have also served me well in the last decade in corrections.
Don't assume that kata training locks you into a response. Just like in music you have to master scales before you can jam. People who just study the notes that sound good play air guitar.
Rory
In free form you visulize attackers in all ways, fist, kicks, weapons, grabs, etc. coming at you. You react with speed, focus, precision and power, as if fighting real foes. Yours in Martial Arts, Sensei Mc Dowell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aiki,
The trouble with the free form is that the student is responding to his own imagination with, 99%+ of the time, absolutely no experience to base it on. This results in training for "Matrix" and living "ER".
I can't speak with authority to all kata, I've never seriously studied karate, but the kata I am familiar with (two man JJ kata of Sosui****su-ryu) are without a doubt, the most brutal applications of technique I've yet seen. They have also served me well in the last decade in corrections.
Don't assume that kata training locks you into a response. Just like in music you have to master scales before you can jam. People who just study the notes that sound good play air guitar.
Rory
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
forms or "katas"
A kata is a prearanged set of self defense techniques. A work of art is a collection of brushstrokes or notes or words... A kata is also a work of art. The classical kata/forms that most old styles are based on are masterpieces.
The artist that creates the masterpiece has some sort of overall vision of what is being created. A plan for how this vision is to be created in reality. The vision is based on many things: experiences, ideals, impressions, intuitive understanding, and a desire to express all of this in some cogent fashion to the world.
As time passes and the artist has long passed from the scene, the masterpiece remains. The relevence of the work determines whether it remains in the general consciousness. The relevence is determined by the interest of others over time and their desire to study the work and teach what they learn from it. In the case of a true masterpiece, the ideas and lessons and interest it inspires transcend the original ideas and vision of its creator. In some cases, the creators original concepts are not even understood anymore, or were even hidden by the creator from the audience altogether. Yet the work still has relevance.
The study of kata should be approached with this mindset, in my opinion. Even kata that appear to have no understandable relevence may attain some with time and practice and experience and study. This is where a system has advantages, because we are forced to learn and practice things that we otherwise might not. We therefore learn things we otherwise might never have learned. We learn to face our weaknesses and refine our strengths. We even find strength where we had not known it to be. If we are allowed only to practice what we like or are already good at we have lost alot of potential.
In the real world of self preservation there is absolutely no way to determine what future situations might occur and what responses the circumstances will dictate. Exposing ourselves to as many experiences and approaches as possible within the context of a core approach is the best we can do to prepare for whatever may come.
A neophyte, in the absence of a good teacher, will not study those things that appear not to have the relevance they seek. Unfortunately, the neophyte will lack the vision or perspective to make an accurate judgement regarding relevance. This is not to say that this neophyte will be unable to progress and gain in ability or experience. It is to say that they will do so in a much more haphazard way, at least initially.
My sensei teach some kata that they themselves had never had much love for simply because a student may find value in them and they are part of the whole picture. These teachers are trying to preserve and communicate as much as they can, because as teachers of these arts they have that responsibility. Relevence can be situational and therefore cannot be anticipated. The fact that it has been relevant is a good determinant that it may again be relevant.
I would hazard the statement that Karate (insert traditional art of choice) has achieved relevance that was certainly not anticipated by the originators.
Go your own way Aiki, but you are missing something.
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ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
The artist that creates the masterpiece has some sort of overall vision of what is being created. A plan for how this vision is to be created in reality. The vision is based on many things: experiences, ideals, impressions, intuitive understanding, and a desire to express all of this in some cogent fashion to the world.
As time passes and the artist has long passed from the scene, the masterpiece remains. The relevence of the work determines whether it remains in the general consciousness. The relevence is determined by the interest of others over time and their desire to study the work and teach what they learn from it. In the case of a true masterpiece, the ideas and lessons and interest it inspires transcend the original ideas and vision of its creator. In some cases, the creators original concepts are not even understood anymore, or were even hidden by the creator from the audience altogether. Yet the work still has relevance.
The study of kata should be approached with this mindset, in my opinion. Even kata that appear to have no understandable relevence may attain some with time and practice and experience and study. This is where a system has advantages, because we are forced to learn and practice things that we otherwise might not. We therefore learn things we otherwise might never have learned. We learn to face our weaknesses and refine our strengths. We even find strength where we had not known it to be. If we are allowed only to practice what we like or are already good at we have lost alot of potential.
In the real world of self preservation there is absolutely no way to determine what future situations might occur and what responses the circumstances will dictate. Exposing ourselves to as many experiences and approaches as possible within the context of a core approach is the best we can do to prepare for whatever may come.
A neophyte, in the absence of a good teacher, will not study those things that appear not to have the relevance they seek. Unfortunately, the neophyte will lack the vision or perspective to make an accurate judgement regarding relevance. This is not to say that this neophyte will be unable to progress and gain in ability or experience. It is to say that they will do so in a much more haphazard way, at least initially.
My sensei teach some kata that they themselves had never had much love for simply because a student may find value in them and they are part of the whole picture. These teachers are trying to preserve and communicate as much as they can, because as teachers of these arts they have that responsibility. Relevence can be situational and therefore cannot be anticipated. The fact that it has been relevant is a good determinant that it may again be relevant.
I would hazard the statement that Karate (insert traditional art of choice) has achieved relevance that was certainly not anticipated by the originators.
Go your own way Aiki, but you are missing something.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
forms or "katas"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aiki:
In free form you visulize attackers in all ways, fist, kicks, weapons, grabs, etc. coming at you. You react with speed, focus, precision and power, as if fighting real foes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is way I have always been taught to practice kata as well.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
What I find interesting is Simon Lailey's comments that when he was in China they did not seem to do their forms the same way everytime. I.e., two students would be doing the same form but they would use different techniques, and the same student would do the same form with different techniques on two different days. What I got from his description was that they were a lot less rigid in their forms, making them more like structured free-forms...sort of a cross between kata and free-form. That way you could still have the basic structure that comes from kata, while getting to visualize a wider variety of scenarios with fewer kata. This could explain why Uechi Ryu started out with so few kata, you wouldn't need to have a lot of kata, each emphasizing different moves, if the kata are less rigid in the techniques performed.
I think the key to both effective kata and effective free-form training is the proper visualization that you mentioned. In my opinion the mind-sets are the same, it's just the degree of structure that varies.
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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
In free form you visulize attackers in all ways, fist, kicks, weapons, grabs, etc. coming at you. You react with speed, focus, precision and power, as if fighting real foes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is way I have always been taught to practice kata as well.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
These concepts appear to be no different from correctly studying kata. Whether studying kata or studying "free-form" the goal is the same, to program the mind and body to react quickly and correctly to the issue at hand.In this way you practice you favorite moves and what comes out of you is natural. Of couse less liked techniques will come out also, but not as much as your best techniques. In a street confortation, if needed, a student would just go into "free form" and his self-defense would be flowing and powerful.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I don't think that there is as much difference as you perceive. As best as we can tell each kata started out as someone's collection of favorite techniques...essentially free-forms that became standardized.I have had extreme success with this type of training. Although many of you are in the "Kata mind set", that is quite all right. I just wanted to share the a little about the road I have taken.
What I find interesting is Simon Lailey's comments that when he was in China they did not seem to do their forms the same way everytime. I.e., two students would be doing the same form but they would use different techniques, and the same student would do the same form with different techniques on two different days. What I got from his description was that they were a lot less rigid in their forms, making them more like structured free-forms...sort of a cross between kata and free-form. That way you could still have the basic structure that comes from kata, while getting to visualize a wider variety of scenarios with fewer kata. This could explain why Uechi Ryu started out with so few kata, you wouldn't need to have a lot of kata, each emphasizing different moves, if the kata are less rigid in the techniques performed.
I think the key to both effective kata and effective free-form training is the proper visualization that you mentioned. In my opinion the mind-sets are the same, it's just the degree of structure that varies.
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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
forms or "katas"
I would like to thank all of you for your varied comments. I found them all interesting and in some ways, informative. Later.
forms or "katas"
Ted:
Let me just say that your post was in itself a work of art, and a perfect example of not only what I love about these forums, but also what sets them apart.
Let me just say that your post was in itself a work of art, and a perfect example of not only what I love about these forums, but also what sets them apart.
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Rick Wilson
forms or "katas"
We see this same post from similar names about every four months or so -- hmmm.
Excellent response Ted, thank you.
Rick
Excellent response Ted, thank you.
Rick
forms or "katas"
By comparison in Wing Chun the forms are not really designed to simulate combat, nor are students taught to imagine opponents attacking them. Instead, the forms are designed to reinforce the key concepts of the system such as Centerline theory, hand replacement, hand unity, facing etc. Each form contains a library of movements from the system and each form represents a different idea in the system. It is said the second form's concepts counter the first's, the third form counters the second and that the first form counters the third. Our forms also train the student how to move certain parts of the body, how the hips should be positioned, how to move their horse using proper foot-work, as well as, how to unite the hands and the feet and also how to disconnect the hands and the feet and that both are used and correct. The forms are responsible for building the student's base - all other training rests on this base. Without it students would never stop making mistakes and never have the slightest idea how to train the more complex exercises since later exercises are all based on these basics found in the forms.
Jim
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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 02, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 10, 2002).]
Jim
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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 02, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 10, 2002).]
forms or "katas"
Sensei Kunz's topic revisited ... it seems.
I my opinion, the kata deliver great training. The internal as well as external components of Sanchin, as an example, can really toughen you up. (I learned a slow kata from Goju called Tensho, that is mighty in the way it literally charges you up). The development can actually give one the ability to withstand some hard blows ... one's that would take out someone not-so-trained.
They offer a classical way to "perform" one's art; similar to a musician that plays certain pieces both for their esthetic beauty as well as for the practice they get from them.
They program you body-mind is ways that you might just never come up with on your own. Think of how that can benefit.
Mixed with a freestyle "shadow-boxing" kind of thing, I think you get a great combination.
I my opinion, the kata deliver great training. The internal as well as external components of Sanchin, as an example, can really toughen you up. (I learned a slow kata from Goju called Tensho, that is mighty in the way it literally charges you up). The development can actually give one the ability to withstand some hard blows ... one's that would take out someone not-so-trained.
They offer a classical way to "perform" one's art; similar to a musician that plays certain pieces both for their esthetic beauty as well as for the practice they get from them.
They program you body-mind is ways that you might just never come up with on your own. Think of how that can benefit.
Mixed with a freestyle "shadow-boxing" kind of thing, I think you get a great combination.
