t.g.i.f.
Toes Go In First for the knee lock.
http://www.geocities.com/dmsdc/kneelock.html
Dana
Entering the low stance
Moderator: Available
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Allen M.
Entering the low stance
There are several reasons why the front of the foot is touched down, and in a heavy boot it's easier and you geat a little more lift. The first reason is the placement of the knee just above the other's knee rather than knee-to-knee. The second [can be] start with the heel low then raise it into the thigh dynamically as he is moving forward, rolling the other's knee outward. The further he rolls it the more his foot comes up off the ground just to maintain pressure and contact in order to facilitate the takedown.
Why I like to come down almost flat-footed is because I have been in a situation on concrete covered by pebbles when the ball of the foot comes down first, the foot just keeps going forward, when gravity takes over there's no stopping and down you go.
Guaranteed that most don't practice karate on similar surfaces so it is a moot point.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Why I like to come down almost flat-footed is because I have been in a situation on concrete covered by pebbles when the ball of the foot comes down first, the foot just keeps going forward, when gravity takes over there's no stopping and down you go.
Guaranteed that most don't practice karate on similar surfaces so it is a moot point.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Entering the low stance
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The very best way of doing this is demonstrated by Shinjio sensei [watch the Okinawan tapes]
__ you will see the best "stomp" ever.
His "landing" is exceptional, as it should be since you are invading the enemy's real estate and
need to operate from a solid platform, in addition to transmit returning shock waves from the
floor as Allen points out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I understand the need for a solid plateform, but I am not quite sure how the returning shockwaves work or are used to help power the strike. I often see Karateka stomp the floor and as I stated before it seems that the energy is misdirected. I witnessed others create the "stomp" and you can almost sense the the incredable power released. Is the difference in the timing, method of landing, flex in the legs or am I way off target?
__ you will see the best "stomp" ever.
His "landing" is exceptional, as it should be since you are invading the enemy's real estate and
need to operate from a solid platform, in addition to transmit returning shock waves from the
floor as Allen points out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I understand the need for a solid plateform, but I am not quite sure how the returning shockwaves work or are used to help power the strike. I often see Karateka stomp the floor and as I stated before it seems that the energy is misdirected. I witnessed others create the "stomp" and you can almost sense the the incredable power released. Is the difference in the timing, method of landing, flex in the legs or am I way off target?
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Allen M.
Entering the low stance
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I think you are right on target, candan.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
All three of the above. I've been with Van, who teaches the TC method, for three years and sometimes I get it. I don't have much in my legs, but there are times I can feel the vibrations returning from the floor, up my leg on nights I'm in the groove. It's compression and expansion, coiling, breathing, instant of impact, time-on-target, all at the same instant.Is the difference in the timing, method of landing, flex in the legs
I think you are right on target, candan.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Entering the low stance
Allen,
If situation allows I intend to cross the border for 2002 summer camp and "stompin" will be on my mind
.
leo
If situation allows I intend to cross the border for 2002 summer camp and "stompin" will be on my mind
.leo
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Allen M.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Entering the low stance
Correct me if I'm wrong here...
I've kept quiet about the stomping and shockwave thing, because it didn't make sense to me but I thought maybe it was just a matter of martial arts vs. the darned English language. I'm fustrated and sympathetic at the same time when someone who knows what they are doing can't quite articulate it in words alone.
As I see it, there's really no need to stomp per se. Rather one is attempting to apply force to the floor, and in turn get a reactive force back through the body and into a technique like an elbow thrust. It's basically one of Newton's laws (action and reaction) applied, with knowledge of how to get energy to go from the legs/hips to the upper body technique.
The discrepancy exists - as I see it - because many people apply the force in a manner to dissipate forward momentum rather than add to the energy already coming forward. Frankly I'm in agreement with the earliest post that most people who stomp simply are wasting all the energy they created - particularly if they stomp before hitting. What I think is being communicated is another scenario whereby one uses the lower body in a very different fashion.
Am I on the right track?
If so...
I have a few things to add to this. It's all well and good to be able to do this. However the timing (and footwork) can be adjusted such that the maximum force is coming more off the rear leg when technique hits - and get equal (if not better) total power. Furthermore, the appearance from the standpoint of the recipient is that they see the technique in their face (or elsewhere) before they have a chance to attack the advancing opponent. I work a lot with my people on this. It's a concept I picked up from several fine martial arts practitioners in the D.C. area. One of them in fact was Marty Dow, who picked it up from his days in the Kadena dojo. Imagine that!
Again, many of these things have to be seen and tried to be understood.
Another reason why I like to emphasise timing that draws this power off the rear foot at point of contact is because of some offensive techniques I am also working on. Exposure to people like Bobby Campbell, Gary Khoury, and Ron Fagen has given me an appreciation of how to make sweeps and dumps work. Bob Campbell in particular was magnificent at dumping people. The trick is in timing an attack on that front leg - preferably while someone is advancing towards you. There are a few other points that need to be applied, but that's for another thread. Anyhow, anyone who intends to have an attack land during or after that front foot plant is going to be vulnerable to the handful of folks who love to do trips and sweeps. It's "out there," and one of the easier targets to get to. Once you've broken the center (you don't need to actually dump the person), you have a half second window to apply a nice, explosive ippon with no interference from the unbalanced opponent.
I never say never. (Ooops!!) There's a time and a place to do all things, and it's best to be flexible. But that's one of the reasons why you won't find me among the frequent stompers. I've been dumped enough while learning how to dump to understand some of the potential consequences.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 07, 2002).]
I've kept quiet about the stomping and shockwave thing, because it didn't make sense to me but I thought maybe it was just a matter of martial arts vs. the darned English language. I'm fustrated and sympathetic at the same time when someone who knows what they are doing can't quite articulate it in words alone.
As I see it, there's really no need to stomp per se. Rather one is attempting to apply force to the floor, and in turn get a reactive force back through the body and into a technique like an elbow thrust. It's basically one of Newton's laws (action and reaction) applied, with knowledge of how to get energy to go from the legs/hips to the upper body technique.
The discrepancy exists - as I see it - because many people apply the force in a manner to dissipate forward momentum rather than add to the energy already coming forward. Frankly I'm in agreement with the earliest post that most people who stomp simply are wasting all the energy they created - particularly if they stomp before hitting. What I think is being communicated is another scenario whereby one uses the lower body in a very different fashion.
Am I on the right track?
If so...
I have a few things to add to this. It's all well and good to be able to do this. However the timing (and footwork) can be adjusted such that the maximum force is coming more off the rear leg when technique hits - and get equal (if not better) total power. Furthermore, the appearance from the standpoint of the recipient is that they see the technique in their face (or elsewhere) before they have a chance to attack the advancing opponent. I work a lot with my people on this. It's a concept I picked up from several fine martial arts practitioners in the D.C. area. One of them in fact was Marty Dow, who picked it up from his days in the Kadena dojo. Imagine that!
Again, many of these things have to be seen and tried to be understood.
Another reason why I like to emphasise timing that draws this power off the rear foot at point of contact is because of some offensive techniques I am also working on. Exposure to people like Bobby Campbell, Gary Khoury, and Ron Fagen has given me an appreciation of how to make sweeps and dumps work. Bob Campbell in particular was magnificent at dumping people. The trick is in timing an attack on that front leg - preferably while someone is advancing towards you. There are a few other points that need to be applied, but that's for another thread. Anyhow, anyone who intends to have an attack land during or after that front foot plant is going to be vulnerable to the handful of folks who love to do trips and sweeps. It's "out there," and one of the easier targets to get to. Once you've broken the center (you don't need to actually dump the person), you have a half second window to apply a nice, explosive ippon with no interference from the unbalanced opponent.
I never say never. (Ooops!!) There's a time and a place to do all things, and it's best to be flexible. But that's one of the reasons why you won't find me among the frequent stompers. I've been dumped enough while learning how to dump to understand some of the potential consequences.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 07, 2002).]
Entering the low stance
Oh well__ the usual controversy. Who knows what the “stomping “ answer is.
However, there are a multitude of opinions in favor of the “stomp” _
One notable example is Chen Style Taijiquan __ widely acknowledged as the oldest and the ancestor of all the other Taijiquan (Tai Chi) styles.
It is characterized by low powerful stances, more obvious body coiling movements, stomping, and explosive releases of power that are mostly absent from the practice of other styles.
This is the "power set" of Chen T'ai Chi. Explosive movement, stomping, fast and slow.
Ba gua also has a range of kicks both high and low, knee butts, and stomping techniques.
Then__ we have Fa-Jing.
Basically it's generated with a slap step (stomp). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And in Uechi__ A look at Toyama sensei’s Sandairyu performance will give you a glimpse of the art of dropping the weight “Tobikomi” __ as practiced by the old style concepts, which involves a sophisticated “stomping” action.
And there is more to correctly timed__ “stomping” than it meets the eye. Not many people understand this concept.
The proper mindset is that whatever your assailant attacks with, you immediately sense the pattern and gain the advantage by stomping down anything the opponent does, physically and mentally, preempting his will to continue.
Stomping is not only done with the feet, but with your body, and with your mind, in a way to achieve physical and mental control.
When you clap your hands a sound comes out immediately, without any interval. The sound does not deliberately come out a while before or after you clap, it comes right out as you clap.
A good analogy to think about in terms of energy transfer, if you will.
Why does Shinjio sensei use a heavy stomp, but a well timed one?
You must achieve a sense of being heavy, hard and compact__ solid, powerful with a high degree of stability, and with great timing giving you the stability you need to prevent being swept, as you land.
That’s where the “ART” is in your movements.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is where the lesson of the “STOMP” is.
Obviously, if “STOMPING” were so deleterious a concept, those fine styles mentioned above would have never developed it.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 07, 2002).]
However, there are a multitude of opinions in favor of the “stomp” _
One notable example is Chen Style Taijiquan __ widely acknowledged as the oldest and the ancestor of all the other Taijiquan (Tai Chi) styles.
It is characterized by low powerful stances, more obvious body coiling movements, stomping, and explosive releases of power that are mostly absent from the practice of other styles.
This is the "power set" of Chen T'ai Chi. Explosive movement, stomping, fast and slow.
Ba gua also has a range of kicks both high and low, knee butts, and stomping techniques.
Then__ we have Fa-Jing.
Basically it's generated with a slap step (stomp). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
What about _ Fumikomi. Stomping kicks as practiced in many Japanese karate systems.Stomping for power is a decent way to add impact to a strike.
And in Uechi__ A look at Toyama sensei’s Sandairyu performance will give you a glimpse of the art of dropping the weight “Tobikomi” __ as practiced by the old style concepts, which involves a sophisticated “stomping” action.
And there is more to correctly timed__ “stomping” than it meets the eye. Not many people understand this concept.
The proper mindset is that whatever your assailant attacks with, you immediately sense the pattern and gain the advantage by stomping down anything the opponent does, physically and mentally, preempting his will to continue.
Stomping is not only done with the feet, but with your body, and with your mind, in a way to achieve physical and mental control.
When you clap your hands a sound comes out immediately, without any interval. The sound does not deliberately come out a while before or after you clap, it comes right out as you clap.
A good analogy to think about in terms of energy transfer, if you will.
Why does Shinjio sensei use a heavy stomp, but a well timed one?
You must achieve a sense of being heavy, hard and compact__ solid, powerful with a high degree of stability, and with great timing giving you the stability you need to prevent being swept, as you land.
That’s where the “ART” is in your movements.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Think about it.The ability to transmit power through the weapon used, the body moving in unison with the weapon, an ability to lead the weapon instead of being led by the weapon.
This is where the lesson of the “STOMP” is.
Obviously, if “STOMPING” were so deleterious a concept, those fine styles mentioned above would have never developed it.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 07, 2002).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Entering the low stance
Van
You know me... I'm a pretty down to earth guy - a direct function of my medical and engineering training. Also, I like to ask a lot of (sometimes annoying) questions so I can demystify the karate language and bring a little clarity to intent and practice. Please bear with me. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The proper mindset is that whatever your assailant attacks with, you immediately sense the pattern and gain the advantage by stomping down anything the opponent does, physically and mentally, preempting his will to continue.
Stomping is not only done with the feet, but with your body, and with your mind, in a way to achieve physical and mental control.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well as metaphor, I can appreciate the concept. Sometimes attitude gets you far. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One notable example is Chen Style Taijiquan __ widely acknowledged as the oldest and the ancestor of all the other Taijiquan (Tai Chi) styles.
It is characterized by low powerful stances, more obvious body coiling movements, stomping, and explosive releases of power that are mostly absent from the practice of other styles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the premise behind styles like this is to be overly explicit in practice, and then make things smaller and quicker in application. That way the concept isn't lost on the student. My understanding of Uechi ryu is that we have all these concepts within the system (or at least we should be incorporating them within the template) but everything is practiced smaller, quicker, and dramatically more efficient. I've never had a problem with this, as I started with a deep-stanced, hard-style, power-oriented karate system. And my first sensei had more attitude than he knew what to do with (we used to call it "terrible purpose", but not to his face
). Thus these concepts are a lot more obvious to me than you might think.
The question is, how should we train? Certainly the larger, longer, deeper movements don't make sense in battle. Some (like my former Goju instructor) argue that you should start big and long and overly explicit, and things naturally get smaller with application. Perhaps he's right. But when you look at our sanchin, things are minimalist right out of the box. Certainly a different approach. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When you clap your hands a sound comes out immediately, without any interval. The sound does not deliberately come out a while before or after you clap, it comes right out as you clap.
A good analogy to think about in terms of energy transfer, if you will.
Why does Shinjio sensei use a heavy stomp, but a well timed one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not sure if I follow exactly what you're trying to convey here. I will say - as I have said above - that timing is important. We're certainly not in disagreement there. Variations in intra-body timing takes the kata from template to practical application.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
You are well aware, Van, of a practitioner that you and I both know and respect. Bobby Campbell has sent many a stomper to his fanny in the sparring ring. Bobby worked on this technique with us when he visited us in Charlottesville circa 1989. I have heard both from Bobby and from another who was there that Bobby - for all practical purposes - toyed with one of his opponents in his last All Okinawa Tournament. He repeatedly sent the practioner to the floor. Mr. Takamiyagi, who was there, was yelling at Bobby to finish the opponent off. Bobby (who had his reasons for not doing so) looked back and told Mr. Takamiyagi "He knows that he was finished."
To stomp or not to stomp isn't really my argument. Explosive power is a good thing. Excellent power starts with the violent contractions of the leg against the floor, and - by one of several methods - the energy not absorbed by floor is transmitted through to the attacking limb. It's when and how and with what foot that I differ with some. To come forward and stomp with the front foot while hitting the opponent is - in my opinion - something you're not going to get away with when you face a handful of practitioners that like to mess with your legs. The crescent movements that some of us practice in ashikitae and the crane movements (the salient moves of seichin and seiryu) applied just before that front foot (heel) lands are going to take the foundation away - by definition - before that explosive attack has a chance to be generated. If your front foot misses the floor, how are you going to generate that power in the first place?
Even when you don't attack the legs per se, understanding how the front foot plant leads to powerful technique can give you clues to perfectly timed counterattacks. It is said that Muhammed Ali picked up (probably from films) that Joe Frazier needed to firmly plant his front leg to get his powerful left hook off. Consequently he learned to jab whenever he sensed the front leg was stomping down. Smokin' Joe - once the heavyweight champion - couldn't beat Ali in the second and third fight because Ali trained himself to jab when he saw that front foot planting. The word got around, and George Foreman humiliated Joe in their only fight (I believe it lasted less than a round).
Ron Fagen is also a master of the front leg attack. Sometimes he does it in counterattack style, and sometimes he'll pull it off (at least 2 different style) when in an attacking sequence. Knowing everything you have said - Van - is absolutely true (about power development) is powerful information for the fighter that wants to take the fuse out of his opponent's fuse box. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hi, my name is Bill Glasheen, and I am a stomper.
Hi, Bill!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm with you when you're talking about power generation and explosive movement. You witnessed me let one rip in my seisan at my test last summer, Van. It wasn't consciously done; the moment just seized me and it came out. The attitude was there and the body expressed it with no thought. Those kinds of movements come from years of practicing power concepts.
But after working with great sweepers, and after learning some good fighting tips, I have adjusted how I do things. I have changed stomp from front foot to back foot, I don't particularly feel the need to raise my heel or foot (it really isn't necessary to clap foot to floor once you get the idea), and I tend to hit before that front foot is planted. That way I can have my power and balance at the same time, and I don't give my sweeping opponent anything he can get at before fist is on target. Maybe the French judge is going to give me a lousy score when I do my compulsories, but it works for me when I face an "uncooperative" opponent.
I believe most of our differences - if they exist - are quite subtle, Van.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 08, 2002).]
You know me... I'm a pretty down to earth guy - a direct function of my medical and engineering training. Also, I like to ask a lot of (sometimes annoying) questions so I can demystify the karate language and bring a little clarity to intent and practice. Please bear with me.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The proper mindset is that whatever your assailant attacks with, you immediately sense the pattern and gain the advantage by stomping down anything the opponent does, physically and mentally, preempting his will to continue.Stomping is not only done with the feet, but with your body, and with your mind, in a way to achieve physical and mental control.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well as metaphor, I can appreciate the concept. Sometimes attitude gets you far. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One notable example is Chen Style Taijiquan __ widely acknowledged as the oldest and the ancestor of all the other Taijiquan (Tai Chi) styles.
It is characterized by low powerful stances, more obvious body coiling movements, stomping, and explosive releases of power that are mostly absent from the practice of other styles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the premise behind styles like this is to be overly explicit in practice, and then make things smaller and quicker in application. That way the concept isn't lost on the student. My understanding of Uechi ryu is that we have all these concepts within the system (or at least we should be incorporating them within the template) but everything is practiced smaller, quicker, and dramatically more efficient. I've never had a problem with this, as I started with a deep-stanced, hard-style, power-oriented karate system. And my first sensei had more attitude than he knew what to do with (we used to call it "terrible purpose", but not to his face
). Thus these concepts are a lot more obvious to me than you might think.The question is, how should we train? Certainly the larger, longer, deeper movements don't make sense in battle. Some (like my former Goju instructor) argue that you should start big and long and overly explicit, and things naturally get smaller with application. Perhaps he's right. But when you look at our sanchin, things are minimalist right out of the box. Certainly a different approach. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When you clap your hands a sound comes out immediately, without any interval. The sound does not deliberately come out a while before or after you clap, it comes right out as you clap.
A good analogy to think about in terms of energy transfer, if you will.
Why does Shinjio sensei use a heavy stomp, but a well timed one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not sure if I follow exactly what you're trying to convey here. I will say - as I have said above - that timing is important. We're certainly not in disagreement there. Variations in intra-body timing takes the kata from template to practical application.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The art of sweeping isn't executing as they land, it's executing the technique a fraction of a second before they stick it. If the person lifts his foot to make lots of noise when they clap foot on floor, it makes it all the more easy. We do drills on this in my class now on a regular basis. Most people can't sweep a dust bunny out of the room with a wide broom. But get the timing right, and it's very disarming. As you come forward and expect to plant foot, the floor is no longer there.You must achieve a sense of being heavy, hard and compact__ solid, powerful with a high degree of stability, and with great timing giving you the stability you need to prevent being swept, as you land.
You are well aware, Van, of a practitioner that you and I both know and respect. Bobby Campbell has sent many a stomper to his fanny in the sparring ring. Bobby worked on this technique with us when he visited us in Charlottesville circa 1989. I have heard both from Bobby and from another who was there that Bobby - for all practical purposes - toyed with one of his opponents in his last All Okinawa Tournament. He repeatedly sent the practioner to the floor. Mr. Takamiyagi, who was there, was yelling at Bobby to finish the opponent off. Bobby (who had his reasons for not doing so) looked back and told Mr. Takamiyagi "He knows that he was finished."
To stomp or not to stomp isn't really my argument. Explosive power is a good thing. Excellent power starts with the violent contractions of the leg against the floor, and - by one of several methods - the energy not absorbed by floor is transmitted through to the attacking limb. It's when and how and with what foot that I differ with some. To come forward and stomp with the front foot while hitting the opponent is - in my opinion - something you're not going to get away with when you face a handful of practitioners that like to mess with your legs. The crescent movements that some of us practice in ashikitae and the crane movements (the salient moves of seichin and seiryu) applied just before that front foot (heel) lands are going to take the foundation away - by definition - before that explosive attack has a chance to be generated. If your front foot misses the floor, how are you going to generate that power in the first place?
Even when you don't attack the legs per se, understanding how the front foot plant leads to powerful technique can give you clues to perfectly timed counterattacks. It is said that Muhammed Ali picked up (probably from films) that Joe Frazier needed to firmly plant his front leg to get his powerful left hook off. Consequently he learned to jab whenever he sensed the front leg was stomping down. Smokin' Joe - once the heavyweight champion - couldn't beat Ali in the second and third fight because Ali trained himself to jab when he saw that front foot planting. The word got around, and George Foreman humiliated Joe in their only fight (I believe it lasted less than a round).
Ron Fagen is also a master of the front leg attack. Sometimes he does it in counterattack style, and sometimes he'll pull it off (at least 2 different style) when in an attacking sequence. Knowing everything you have said - Van - is absolutely true (about power development) is powerful information for the fighter that wants to take the fuse out of his opponent's fuse box. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hi, my name is Bill Glasheen, and I am a stomper.
Hi, Bill!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm with you when you're talking about power generation and explosive movement. You witnessed me let one rip in my seisan at my test last summer, Van. It wasn't consciously done; the moment just seized me and it came out. The attitude was there and the body expressed it with no thought. Those kinds of movements come from years of practicing power concepts.
But after working with great sweepers, and after learning some good fighting tips, I have adjusted how I do things. I have changed stomp from front foot to back foot, I don't particularly feel the need to raise my heel or foot (it really isn't necessary to clap foot to floor once you get the idea), and I tend to hit before that front foot is planted. That way I can have my power and balance at the same time, and I don't give my sweeping opponent anything he can get at before fist is on target. Maybe the French judge is going to give me a lousy score when I do my compulsories, but it works for me when I face an "uncooperative" opponent.
I believe most of our differences - if they exist - are quite subtle, Van.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 08, 2002).]
Entering the low stance
My lightweight 2 cents worth. On seeing folks practice entering into a low stance I would generally look for a takedown of some type. Going forcefully into a low stance one is going under the opponent's center of gravity and can initiate a takedown either by attacking directly the leg(s) or trapping the legs to prevent backwards movement while the upper body and arm(s) are used to displace and unbalance. I think this can be done forcefully by sliding in, generally toes/ball of foot first.
Stomping with the heel. Also a takedown. Stomp on the opponents front foot to break trap and initiate takedown.
Not entering into a low stance but a stomp of sort with the front foot is sometimes used by boxers to "weigh" or power the lead hand attack when there's no need to step in further because of the close proximity of the opponent.
david
Stomping with the heel. Also a takedown. Stomp on the opponents front foot to break trap and initiate takedown.
Not entering into a low stance but a stomp of sort with the front foot is sometimes used by boxers to "weigh" or power the lead hand attack when there's no need to step in further because of the close proximity of the opponent.
david
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Entering the low stance
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The point you make here though is that the leg becomes the lead attack - and not the hand or elbow whose power is generated by a stomping front foot.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The thing to always remember in boxing though is that it's a game with rules. Leg sweeps aren't allowed. Thus it's possible to have weight on front leg in a lead technique with little consequence. In fact there is often quite a bit of weight shift to front leg, as witnessed by the propensity for a boxer to let that rear heel come up when punching off rear leg.
- Bill
Understood. Actually this works even better when snaking the front foot around the opponent's legs. At that point the whole sweep argument is moot.Going forcefully into a low stance one is going under the opponent's center of gravity and can initiate a takedown either by attacking directly the leg(s) or trapping the legs to prevent backwards movement while the upper body and arm(s) are used to displace and unbalance.
The point you make here though is that the leg becomes the lead attack - and not the hand or elbow whose power is generated by a stomping front foot.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Agreed. Once the fight sequence is started, the forces deliverd to the floor from the legs will shift from foot to foot as combinations flow. These are certainly issues felt easier than seen.Not entering into a low stance but a stomp of sort with the front foot is sometimes used by boxers to "weigh" or power the lead hand attack when there's no need to step in further because of the close proximity of the opponent.
The thing to always remember in boxing though is that it's a game with rules. Leg sweeps aren't allowed. Thus it's possible to have weight on front leg in a lead technique with little consequence. In fact there is often quite a bit of weight shift to front leg, as witnessed by the propensity for a boxer to let that rear heel come up when punching off rear leg.
- Bill
Entering the low stance
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I have to say from of the things that irk me is when folks say -- "If I do this or take this stance in this situation, my opponent is totally vulnerable and can't counter me." I hear this more often in aikido but also in other arts. Some senior aikido student put that line on me and my response was, "Well, let's see..." The reality is that there's a counter to any attack and a counter to any counter, and so on and so on. It all comes down to who's better at his play(s) when the chips are down.
david
True, it's a game but it doesn't take away the aspects that can have real life application. These aspects exist in most combative sports, except for maybe jello wrestling.The thing to always remember in boxing though is that it's a game with rules. Leg sweeps aren't allowed. Thus it's possible to have weight on front leg in a lead technique with little consequence.
I have to say from of the things that irk me is when folks say -- "If I do this or take this stance in this situation, my opponent is totally vulnerable and can't counter me." I hear this more often in aikido but also in other arts. Some senior aikido student put that line on me and my response was, "Well, let's see..." The reality is that there's a counter to any attack and a counter to any counter, and so on and so on. It all comes down to who's better at his play(s) when the chips are down.
david
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Entering the low stance
So true. Wouldn't it be nice for all of us to spar like Bob Campbell?? Hey, I can dream!
Hey, sign me up for your next jello wrestling class, david, particularly if you bring in the fairer sex!!
- Bill
Hey, sign me up for your next jello wrestling class, david, particularly if you bring in the fairer sex!!
- Bill
Entering the low stance
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I certainly do not lift the foot up for a “stomp” __ It is more of “body settling” than stomping.
In my day, I used much “leg sweeping” in my sparring techniques.. In fact I used to teach them in my original sparring class at the Mattson Academy, as I had learned them in my judo training.
From my tournament experience, I can also say that some people are almost immune to sweeping if they move “bottom heavy” and are trained to get inside you properly.
By watching some of the very powerful Okinawan masters in action, I see more of an “aggressive landing” well timed and taking control, along the above concept line.
When you watch Shinjio sensei in action, you see this concept..Not merely what may look like a “stomp” to the novice.
This concept is more forcefully brought to bear by watching, very carefully, Toyama sensei’s performance of Sanseiryu.
Watch closely, and you will see the concept of Tobikomi (a plunge and powerful settling-down of the body weight into certain techniques)
Watch the manner in which he does the “elbow lunge” __ a total departure from the standard we are used to.
What do you see in it? Watch the timing of the body settling in relation to the elbow strike on target. Why is he doing that… what lesson is he trying to convey?
Another point:
The Dan Kumite set was originally created by TOYAMA Sensei using strictly old-style fighting technique as taught him by Kanbun Sensei.
The original Dan Kumite was called “Renzoku Kumite” (continuous or non-stopping kumite) and was later modified under UECHI Kanei Sensei’s direction.
The original version makes extensive use of the difficult arts of taikawashi, and Tobikomi a plunge and powerful settling-down of the body weight into certain techniques
Ever wonder why? Now look at Toyama sensei’s Sanseiryu again, and again.
------------------
Van Canna
Maybe we should get away from the word “stomp” in the sense of the mental images that the word evokes.The art of sweeping isn't executing as they land, it's executing the technique a fraction of a second before they stick it. If the person lifts his foot to make lots of noise when they clap foot on floor, it makes it all the more easy.
I certainly do not lift the foot up for a “stomp” __ It is more of “body settling” than stomping.
In my day, I used much “leg sweeping” in my sparring techniques.. In fact I used to teach them in my original sparring class at the Mattson Academy, as I had learned them in my judo training.
From my tournament experience, I can also say that some people are almost immune to sweeping if they move “bottom heavy” and are trained to get inside you properly.
By watching some of the very powerful Okinawan masters in action, I see more of an “aggressive landing” well timed and taking control, along the above concept line.
When you watch Shinjio sensei in action, you see this concept..Not merely what may look like a “stomp” to the novice.
This concept is more forcefully brought to bear by watching, very carefully, Toyama sensei’s performance of Sanseiryu.
Watch closely, and you will see the concept of Tobikomi (a plunge and powerful settling-down of the body weight into certain techniques)
Watch the manner in which he does the “elbow lunge” __ a total departure from the standard we are used to.
What do you see in it? Watch the timing of the body settling in relation to the elbow strike on target. Why is he doing that… what lesson is he trying to convey?
Another point:
The Dan Kumite set was originally created by TOYAMA Sensei using strictly old-style fighting technique as taught him by Kanbun Sensei.
The original Dan Kumite was called “Renzoku Kumite” (continuous or non-stopping kumite) and was later modified under UECHI Kanei Sensei’s direction.
The original version makes extensive use of the difficult arts of taikawashi, and Tobikomi a plunge and powerful settling-down of the body weight into certain techniques
Ever wonder why? Now look at Toyama sensei’s Sanseiryu again, and again.
------------------
Van Canna
Entering the low stance
The following may help when watching Toyama sensei and or Shinjio sensei's Kata:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Another meaning for “Sanchin” is “mitsu ga hitotsu” -- three things moving together, blending as a single move.
This concept must be addressed constantly in live practice, and is far too involved for a short essay.
The lower, middle, and upper body must move together while maintaining proper relationship to the purpose of the move.
The feet must move to place the middle body in a superior position to that of the opponent, the middle portion settles the balance and maintains posture for a strong foundation, and the upper body effects the defensive move and counter, timing it precisely with the settling of balance and the motion of the feet to position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
** <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The Seisan Bunkai was modified in 1958 for safety and to eliminate certain aspects of the older style, which could no longer be performed by UECHI Kanei Sensei.
Prior to that time, the older, more dangerous and difficult bunkai was taught only to senior Okinawan practitioners.
It was used in the Futenma Dojo for the last time in June 1958 at the Dan Test for Okinawan students (apparently one of three tests that month), and then replaced by the contemporary version.
The older form was quietly preserved, and restored to active practice recently within the Uechi-Ryu Zankai.
It originated in China and was taught by UECHI Kanbun Sensei in the Wakayama Dojo.
Along with the Dan Kumite, a fully developed understanding of taikawashi and tobikomi _ [italics mine]_ is necessary at this stage in training to perform the Chinese-style Bunkai safely.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[Toyama sensei’s teachings.]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> the use of taikawashi -- body-shifting technique -- throughout the sets is not so much emphasized as it was in the older form.
The original Dan Kumite was called “Renzoku Kumite” (continuous or non-stopping kumite) and was later modified under UECHI Kanei Sensei’s direction. It then came to be taught and performed in Ippon Kumite style, with the continuous flow “broken down” into 6 start-stop sections.
The original version makes extensive use of the difficult arts of taikawashi, Tobikomi, and other techniques.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 09, 2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Another meaning for “Sanchin” is “mitsu ga hitotsu” -- three things moving together, blending as a single move.
This concept must be addressed constantly in live practice, and is far too involved for a short essay.
The lower, middle, and upper body must move together while maintaining proper relationship to the purpose of the move.
The feet must move to place the middle body in a superior position to that of the opponent, the middle portion settles the balance and maintains posture for a strong foundation, and the upper body effects the defensive move and counter, timing it precisely with the settling of balance and the motion of the feet to position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
** <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The Seisan Bunkai was modified in 1958 for safety and to eliminate certain aspects of the older style, which could no longer be performed by UECHI Kanei Sensei.
Prior to that time, the older, more dangerous and difficult bunkai was taught only to senior Okinawan practitioners.
It was used in the Futenma Dojo for the last time in June 1958 at the Dan Test for Okinawan students (apparently one of three tests that month), and then replaced by the contemporary version.
The older form was quietly preserved, and restored to active practice recently within the Uechi-Ryu Zankai.
It originated in China and was taught by UECHI Kanbun Sensei in the Wakayama Dojo.
Along with the Dan Kumite, a fully developed understanding of taikawashi and tobikomi _ [italics mine]_ is necessary at this stage in training to perform the Chinese-style Bunkai safely.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[Toyama sensei’s teachings.]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> the use of taikawashi -- body-shifting technique -- throughout the sets is not so much emphasized as it was in the older form.
The original Dan Kumite was called “Renzoku Kumite” (continuous or non-stopping kumite) and was later modified under UECHI Kanei Sensei’s direction. It then came to be taught and performed in Ippon Kumite style, with the continuous flow “broken down” into 6 start-stop sections.
The original version makes extensive use of the difficult arts of taikawashi, Tobikomi, and other techniques.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 09, 2002).]
