Since the History forum has been inactive for some time, I posted this question here, hope you don't mind.
I have heard many theories on how karate evolved on Okinawa through the years of Japanese occupation and how many of the Kabudo weapons came from the farming tools. I have also recently read a hypothesis that the Okinawan peasants showed little to none resistance to the Japanese samurai and that karate was predominantly practiced by the Okinawan nobility, not the farmers.
Realizing that there are as many opinions as there are researchers, I would still like to hear what the participants of this forum read or learned about the evolution of karate on Okinawa through the Japanese invasion. Maybe someone can recommend a credible book on this topic. Your responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Regards,
Vladimir.
Farmers vs. Samurai
Moderator: Available
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Farmers vs. Samurai
Vladimir:
Please post this on the History forum as well. The moderator does read anything that goes in that forum and does respond from time to time. Especially interesting topics like this one.
------------------
GEM
Please post this on the History forum as well. The moderator does read anything that goes in that forum and does respond from time to time. Especially interesting topics like this one.
------------------
GEM
-
f.Channell
- Posts: 3541
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valhalla
Farmers vs. Samurai
Vladimir,
You might like Samurai vs Karate on Van's forum which answers many of these questions. It's a couple of months old. The topic of farm tools versus swords is also interesting, that topic was more empty hand versus armored samurai.
f.
You might like Samurai vs Karate on Van's forum which answers many of these questions. It's a couple of months old. The topic of farm tools versus swords is also interesting, that topic was more empty hand versus armored samurai.
f.
Farmers vs. Samurai
Thanks Fred. I did a search on the topic and it didn't come up with anything. That's OK.
The quote that made me think was by one of the Russian "researchers of the MA" who references some of Mark Bishop's work: "Samurai vs. Farmer = SUSHI"...
He goes on to argue that there is no evidence (facts) of karate being used by the Okinawan farmers against the samurai, and that karate was predominantly practiced by the nobility.
I simply question the credibility of the source.
Thanks for the reply,
Vladimir
The quote that made me think was by one of the Russian "researchers of the MA" who references some of Mark Bishop's work: "Samurai vs. Farmer = SUSHI"...
He goes on to argue that there is no evidence (facts) of karate being used by the Okinawan farmers against the samurai, and that karate was predominantly practiced by the nobility.
I simply question the credibility of the source.
Thanks for the reply,
Vladimir
Farmers vs. Samurai
First of all, I don't think this is just a 2-sided issue: Farmers developed karate and kobudo and fought the Samurai vs nobility developed karate and kobudo and did not fight the Samurai. There are many different sides and possibilities to this.
Many of the kobudo weapontry that is generally thought of native to Okinawa exist outside of Okinawa. An example is the sai, which is usually considered an Okinawan weapon but which has a Chinese counterpart. It's possible that they spread out from Okinawa, but it is also possible that they spread to Okinawa from outside sources. In that case, they likely have little to do with Okinawan farming.
Even if they never clashed, the Samurai threat certainly could have influenced the development of karate and kobudo. Farmers and/or nobility may have been attempting to be as prepared as possible in case they ever got the chance to use it on the Samurai (say if a revolt occurred). But this opportunity never presented itself and karate and kobudo stayed in the background, and the masters lived to pass on their skills.
Both nobility and peasantry likely influenced karate and kobudo. Yes karate and kobudo history is full of tales of the nobility, but keep in mind that we are primarily talking about the history of the major styles that exist today, and not all of those other individual karate and kobudo practitioners that populated Okinawa's history but about whom little written or oral history has survived. Part of this depends on what you define as "karate" and "kobudo". The nobility seems to have had the most influence on the development of many of the Chinese-influenced major styles, i.e. what are usually referred to as karate and kobudo. This is not too surprising, the nobility had greater opportunity to travel for training; were more likely to assume the teaching role in that society, which led to the creation and spread of their "styles"; and were more likely to leave some sort of record. Therefore they had the greatest influence on the styles and history that we are left with today. But it seems there was also an undercurrent of more native "te" and weapons skills that existed among many of the rural peasantry. And of course, both likely influenced each other. I think the real history karate is a lot more complex than we realize.
I have seen two stories of karate-ka defeating a Samurai, one in a book by Richard Kim ("Weaponless Warriors") and one in a book by Shoshin Nagamine ("Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters"). Both stories involved a real karate-ka. In one case the Samurai was killed and in the other the Samurai was humiliated. There are some definite implausabilities with both stories, particularly in the way there was no retribution exacted by the Samurai upon the Okinawan individuals and villages involved.
Just some thoughts to try to break this out of an either-or framework.
------------------
Glenn
Many of the kobudo weapontry that is generally thought of native to Okinawa exist outside of Okinawa. An example is the sai, which is usually considered an Okinawan weapon but which has a Chinese counterpart. It's possible that they spread out from Okinawa, but it is also possible that they spread to Okinawa from outside sources. In that case, they likely have little to do with Okinawan farming.
Even if they never clashed, the Samurai threat certainly could have influenced the development of karate and kobudo. Farmers and/or nobility may have been attempting to be as prepared as possible in case they ever got the chance to use it on the Samurai (say if a revolt occurred). But this opportunity never presented itself and karate and kobudo stayed in the background, and the masters lived to pass on their skills.
Both nobility and peasantry likely influenced karate and kobudo. Yes karate and kobudo history is full of tales of the nobility, but keep in mind that we are primarily talking about the history of the major styles that exist today, and not all of those other individual karate and kobudo practitioners that populated Okinawa's history but about whom little written or oral history has survived. Part of this depends on what you define as "karate" and "kobudo". The nobility seems to have had the most influence on the development of many of the Chinese-influenced major styles, i.e. what are usually referred to as karate and kobudo. This is not too surprising, the nobility had greater opportunity to travel for training; were more likely to assume the teaching role in that society, which led to the creation and spread of their "styles"; and were more likely to leave some sort of record. Therefore they had the greatest influence on the styles and history that we are left with today. But it seems there was also an undercurrent of more native "te" and weapons skills that existed among many of the rural peasantry. And of course, both likely influenced each other. I think the real history karate is a lot more complex than we realize.
I have seen two stories of karate-ka defeating a Samurai, one in a book by Richard Kim ("Weaponless Warriors") and one in a book by Shoshin Nagamine ("Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters"). Both stories involved a real karate-ka. In one case the Samurai was killed and in the other the Samurai was humiliated. There are some definite implausabilities with both stories, particularly in the way there was no retribution exacted by the Samurai upon the Okinawan individuals and villages involved.
Just some thoughts to try to break this out of an either-or framework.
------------------
Glenn
-
f.Channell
- Posts: 3541
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valhalla
Farmers vs. Samurai
Dated february 1st 2002 on Van Canna Sensei's forum Vladimir. Wish I could put on a link but I'm a jukyu at this stuff.
The sai is also a Filipino weapon as well.
f.
The sai is also a Filipino weapon as well.
f.
