For many who have substained 20 to 30 + years of training, i would ask what keeps us practicing and studying ?
Is it the ability to become better fighters as we get much older ? I dobt it. Or is it that over the years our development and understanding advanced to higher levels ?
On another post i referred to going "deeper" into ones art. I was somewhat downed by some for it. That's alright.
As many of us get older, our focus in our study shift to different elements of what we practice.
In the begining we are lucky enough to get through the movements. Then we start to develop over the years. We close up on the distance, improve on our timing, develop power, understand the need to be accurate.
Are those of us who stay in it for a lifetime not getting deeper into the art ? How many 50 year old are still able to aggresively fight and send roundhouse kicks to the head ? Or grapple about and ground fight ?
Is it not the "elements" within that are the "depth" itself of our practice ? Do we not expand and benefit by the experience and knowledge of others ?
------------------
Gary S.
Depth of Art !
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GSantaniello
- Posts: 190
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Depth of Art !
Gary,
I'll give you my take, FWIW.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it the ability to become better fighters as we get much older ? I dobt it. Or is it that over the years our development and understanding advanced to higher levels ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I don't about being a "better" fighter though I still like to believe my training would enable me to more "effective" if and when I need to be. This component has been pretty consistent for me though it goes from background to forefront and back again. This aspect of I want from training, however, doesn't preclude me from enjoying others. "Understanding" and "higher levels" these terms are vague and I suspect totally subjective. One person's take on "higher understanding" can be another's version of "self delusion."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As many of us get older, our focus in our study shift to different elements of what we practice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it does I tend to disagree with the notion that it's "linear." I think our emphasis can shift up and down, back and forth, and circularly. We should allow folks to seek what they want rather than tell them what they "ought" to want from their training.
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However, I wouldn't mind freestyling with them. I think they are "deeper" into their art, as they define "deep."
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respectfully,
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 29, 2002).]
I'll give you my take, FWIW.
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It varies from individual to individual and can vary for the same individual over time. You often speak of training over 25 plus years and going "deeper." Well, I have been training now going into 33 years. Others on these boards even more. My interests and yours may not entirely coincide but it's no worse and no better. Just different.For many who have substained 20 to 30 + years of training, i would ask what keeps us practicing and studying ?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it the ability to become better fighters as we get much older ? I dobt it. Or is it that over the years our development and understanding advanced to higher levels ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I don't about being a "better" fighter though I still like to believe my training would enable me to more "effective" if and when I need to be. This component has been pretty consistent for me though it goes from background to forefront and back again. This aspect of I want from training, however, doesn't preclude me from enjoying others.
"Understanding" and "higher levels" these terms are vague and I suspect totally subjective. One person's take on "higher understanding" can be another's version of "self delusion."<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As many of us get older, our focus in our study shift to different elements of what we practice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it does I tend to disagree with the notion that it's "linear." I think our emphasis can shift up and down, back and forth, and circularly. We should allow folks to seek what they want rather than tell them what they "ought" to want from their training.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Yes. And one of the better ways to test this out - short of a real "do or die" situation, is through freestyle with an uncooperative partner.In the begining we are lucky enough to get through the movements. Then we start to develop over the years. We close up on the distance, improve on our timing, develop power, understand the need to be accurate.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I can think of a number of 50 plus year olds that I wouldn't want to get into a fight with.Are those of us who stay in it for a lifetime not getting deeper into the art ? How many 50 year old are still able to aggresively fight and send roundhouse kicks to the head ? Or grapple about and ground fight ?
However, I wouldn't mind freestyling with them. I think they are "deeper" into their art, as they define "deep."<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Again, the first part is vague and subjective. The second part, yes. We definitely benefit from others who share their knowledge and experiences, if we are ready and these relate to our own personal interests (thus we listen). In the original thread from which this is jumping from, Joe was asking some questions and hopefully taking the feedback into consideration since he is interested. Likewise, some of us could learn and profit from Joe's experience if we are interested in elements of sparring/self-defense which Joe seems more concerned with right now in his training.Is it not the "elements" within that are the "depth" itself of our practice ? Do we not expand and benefit by the experience and knowledge of others ?
respectfully,
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 29, 2002).]
Depth of Art !
I read this thread after having performed the three Kata this morning ( two more sets before the evening). At 64 years old and only 15 lbs above the weight I started at with GEM in 1960, I affirm the benefits of just Kata practice. With respect to fighting and sparring, heck, my cat intimidates me [GRIN].
The discussions on migrating away from the core Kata to fighting has a parallel in ballet training. My wife has been teaching ballet for 30 years and has had two students go on to become soloists ( one a prima ballerina in Europe). Prior to that she herself was a soloist at the Metropolitan Opera Ballet Co and the old Maquis de Cuevas company. To this day she can move effortlessly as she teaches and demonstrates. Of significance to these discussions is that of the barre, which begin each and every training day ( from beginner to accomplished dancers in companies). The same plies (low horse positions), body placements, etc. ( Kata!) are practiced every day. The classical stlye she teaches and was taught is the Checchetti Method. The syllabus ranges over many years, with monotonic improvement based on the previous elaborations on the preceeding positions (that are practiced each session). The newer style is the Russian School, Bouganova (excuse spelling on this one). The changes are in some placements and when certain combinations are introduced. BUT, the Kata of each style are practiced each day. To most students this is 'boring, when are we going to go on stage and dance like they do at the Ballet?" The correspondence to sparring is center work where the teacher introduces combinations based on the level learned. Great, the sutdents say, let's dance and jump around. FUN! Yet, when corrected there are suprised looks of consternation. The rest of the parallel is clear. Back to the barre (Kata) to correct the basics to perfect the body for the 'sparring'. Many students go to jazz schools where they can 'get in the ring' right away. But, if some want to go on to careers in dance, the ballet training is manditory. One of the best jazz teachers was a student with my wife and she insists that ballet lays the foundations for great jazz dancing.
All the above is a way of saying that from my solipsistic perspective, I am and will always be greatful that GEM was willing to teach the full spectrum of students, I being one of the luck recipients of a life long art that keeps me physically and mentally in shape.
In honesty, though, I am put to shame by my mother-in-law who, in November will be 90, goes to aerobics in Melrose three (3) times a week, swims and proudly works the light weights. In the summer she wind surfs at the lake in Sunappee NH and swims from one half to a full mile. She has always said "death is going to have to run pretty darn quickly to get me as I have too many things to do!".
The discussions on migrating away from the core Kata to fighting has a parallel in ballet training. My wife has been teaching ballet for 30 years and has had two students go on to become soloists ( one a prima ballerina in Europe). Prior to that she herself was a soloist at the Metropolitan Opera Ballet Co and the old Maquis de Cuevas company. To this day she can move effortlessly as she teaches and demonstrates. Of significance to these discussions is that of the barre, which begin each and every training day ( from beginner to accomplished dancers in companies). The same plies (low horse positions), body placements, etc. ( Kata!) are practiced every day. The classical stlye she teaches and was taught is the Checchetti Method. The syllabus ranges over many years, with monotonic improvement based on the previous elaborations on the preceeding positions (that are practiced each session). The newer style is the Russian School, Bouganova (excuse spelling on this one). The changes are in some placements and when certain combinations are introduced. BUT, the Kata of each style are practiced each day. To most students this is 'boring, when are we going to go on stage and dance like they do at the Ballet?" The correspondence to sparring is center work where the teacher introduces combinations based on the level learned. Great, the sutdents say, let's dance and jump around. FUN! Yet, when corrected there are suprised looks of consternation. The rest of the parallel is clear. Back to the barre (Kata) to correct the basics to perfect the body for the 'sparring'. Many students go to jazz schools where they can 'get in the ring' right away. But, if some want to go on to careers in dance, the ballet training is manditory. One of the best jazz teachers was a student with my wife and she insists that ballet lays the foundations for great jazz dancing.
All the above is a way of saying that from my solipsistic perspective, I am and will always be greatful that GEM was willing to teach the full spectrum of students, I being one of the luck recipients of a life long art that keeps me physically and mentally in shape.
In honesty, though, I am put to shame by my mother-in-law who, in November will be 90, goes to aerobics in Melrose three (3) times a week, swims and proudly works the light weights. In the summer she wind surfs at the lake in Sunappee NH and swims from one half to a full mile. She has always said "death is going to have to run pretty darn quickly to get me as I have too many things to do!".
Depth of Art !
WOW!!
"In honesty, though, I am put to shame by my mother-in-law who, in November will be 90, goes to aerobics in Melrose three (3) times a week, swims and proudly works the light weights. In the summer she wind surfs at the lake in Sunappee NH and swims from one half to a full mile."
"In honesty, though, I am put to shame by my mother-in-law who, in November will be 90, goes to aerobics in Melrose three (3) times a week, swims and proudly works the light weights. In the summer she wind surfs at the lake in Sunappee NH and swims from one half to a full mile."
Depth of Art !
Topos,
When I hit your age, I hope to be stil training. When I hit your mother's age, I would just be happy.
I am also impressed by what your wife is capable of. But, I think there's a limit to making her case analogous to all of MA training, unless we want to equate our MA training with the same end goal of Ballet. Some folks are in MA primarily for sports and/or self-defense, though they may derive other benefits as well from their training. In these instances you must go beyond kata and work with an uncooperative partner. Others disagreed but this indeed seems to be the consensus among those who compete and somewhat among those who are concerned with self-defense.
david
When I hit your age, I hope to be stil training. When I hit your mother's age, I would just be happy.
I am also impressed by what your wife is capable of. But, I think there's a limit to making her case analogous to all of MA training, unless we want to equate our MA training with the same end goal of Ballet. Some folks are in MA primarily for sports and/or self-defense, though they may derive other benefits as well from their training. In these instances you must go beyond kata and work with an uncooperative partner. Others disagreed but this indeed seems to be the consensus among those who compete and somewhat among those who are concerned with self-defense.
david
Depth of Art !
David,
You are absolutely correct! What I was attempting to articulate with the Ballet Analogy was to present another perspective on the various posts that I perceived as relegating Kata training to the background or even their eliminatation. MA students follow the Normal Distribution Curve in reasons to study. I remember the excitement when GEM introduced the Kumite, etc. The controlled aggression was cathartic. If one's penchant is for sparring and competition then one should follow that path. But one must ask if one is not thoroughly grounded in Uechi Kata no matter what your perspective then what difference does it make if one were to go to a gym and just take up boxing, Jiu Jitsu, etc,? From the myriad of students that pass through the portals of a classical ballet school there are few ( +6 sigma for the initiates) that make it to the pros. But even the average ones sometimes come back to join the adult classe, and enroll their children. And more than one told my wife that they still remembered the formal grounding she inculcated in them and they would practice by themselves and if they went to dance classes had the requisite understanding to keep up.
Another perspective is the way engineering was taught at MIT as opposed to some other regional schools which taught the latest technologies with minimal theoretical courses, allowing the students to get engineering jobs in the field at that moment. Tech sutdents were deeply grounded in the theoretical and could learn any technology as it might change on their own ( previous was reported to me by a manager at United Technologies in the 60's). They had the knowledge to understand the underlying dynamics. Which is best? Neither. It depends on the person. (There are some of us 'hackers {old definition not the S/W break in artists} who actually still enjoy learning new theoretical math!)
Given a choice, I would rather be defended in battle by a good street fighter whether or not his Kata was perfect. Of course, that is my opinion, I could be wrong.
You are absolutely correct! What I was attempting to articulate with the Ballet Analogy was to present another perspective on the various posts that I perceived as relegating Kata training to the background or even their eliminatation. MA students follow the Normal Distribution Curve in reasons to study. I remember the excitement when GEM introduced the Kumite, etc. The controlled aggression was cathartic. If one's penchant is for sparring and competition then one should follow that path. But one must ask if one is not thoroughly grounded in Uechi Kata no matter what your perspective then what difference does it make if one were to go to a gym and just take up boxing, Jiu Jitsu, etc,? From the myriad of students that pass through the portals of a classical ballet school there are few ( +6 sigma for the initiates) that make it to the pros. But even the average ones sometimes come back to join the adult classe, and enroll their children. And more than one told my wife that they still remembered the formal grounding she inculcated in them and they would practice by themselves and if they went to dance classes had the requisite understanding to keep up.
Another perspective is the way engineering was taught at MIT as opposed to some other regional schools which taught the latest technologies with minimal theoretical courses, allowing the students to get engineering jobs in the field at that moment. Tech sutdents were deeply grounded in the theoretical and could learn any technology as it might change on their own ( previous was reported to me by a manager at United Technologies in the 60's). They had the knowledge to understand the underlying dynamics. Which is best? Neither. It depends on the person. (There are some of us 'hackers {old definition not the S/W break in artists} who actually still enjoy learning new theoretical math!)
Given a choice, I would rather be defended in battle by a good street fighter whether or not his Kata was perfect. Of course, that is my opinion, I could be wrong.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Depth of Art !
Topos
The kata vs. sparring vs. fighting arguments are so tiresome! Many of the folks that eschew kata for going straight into the ring have no idea how badly they ******! They have no idea how much unrealized potential they have. Even Bruce Lee - one of the kings of anti-tradition and anti-classical-mess - received forms training from Yip Man (grandmaster of Wing Chun) before going it alone. When you look at his JKD, you realize it's a big ripoff of a great art. He gives no credit to his roots.
The ballet analogy is great.
I especially like and appreciate the engineering analogy. I used to remember those undergraduate classes where the students would moan whenever they had to do theoretical proofs. They just wanted "practical" problems that would get them "the job." Meanwhile, those jobs come and go at the snap of a finger. Heck - my company just got bought up by another last night. I still have a job because....I'M SMART!!
Knock on wood... Those that have a proper foundation can apply their core knowledge anywhere.
Same can be said for music. Any decently-trained musician can tell which rock-and-rollers were classically trained, and which were not. You don't need to be but...it doesn't hurt. Over time, one is able to adapt to various kinds of music (evolve) if one has the proper fundamentals.
david
As always, you are a wise man!
In general...
I cannot speak for others; I can only speak for my self. I hit the 30th year this last spring, and I can tell you that my training evolves. In some ways I can't do what I could when I was younger, but in other ways, I am better than ever and can do things I never thought imaginable. The well-adjusted in life learn to accept and work with change. Those that cannot are the ones that become depressed and mope and make excuses...and untimately quit. Worse yet are those that live vicariously through their students. In my book you still need to get out there and show you can make something of your body - no matter what that "something" is. Let the young bucks mouth on about this and about that. I'm betting I'll still be around when they are my age, and I'll smile at those that have changed and the vast majority that have made excuses and quit.
The only constant in life is change. Martial arts is one of many ways to learn to make the best of whomever you are. The more years that an individual is able to do that, the more that can be said for them. And no - I'm not talking about hero worshiping and grandiose stories about great masters with legendary abilities that don't exist. I'm talking about getting out there and inspiring the next bloke by putting the gi on and DOING. I'm talking about staying young mentally by constantly challenging yourself in whatever way seems appropriate for yourself. To me, that's the art I practice.
- Bill
The kata vs. sparring vs. fighting arguments are so tiresome! Many of the folks that eschew kata for going straight into the ring have no idea how badly they ******! They have no idea how much unrealized potential they have. Even Bruce Lee - one of the kings of anti-tradition and anti-classical-mess - received forms training from Yip Man (grandmaster of Wing Chun) before going it alone. When you look at his JKD, you realize it's a big ripoff of a great art. He gives no credit to his roots.
The ballet analogy is great.
I especially like and appreciate the engineering analogy. I used to remember those undergraduate classes where the students would moan whenever they had to do theoretical proofs. They just wanted "practical" problems that would get them "the job." Meanwhile, those jobs come and go at the snap of a finger. Heck - my company just got bought up by another last night. I still have a job because....I'M SMART!!
Knock on wood... Those that have a proper foundation can apply their core knowledge anywhere.Same can be said for music. Any decently-trained musician can tell which rock-and-rollers were classically trained, and which were not. You don't need to be but...it doesn't hurt. Over time, one is able to adapt to various kinds of music (evolve) if one has the proper fundamentals.
david
As always, you are a wise man!
In general...
I cannot speak for others; I can only speak for my self. I hit the 30th year this last spring, and I can tell you that my training evolves. In some ways I can't do what I could when I was younger, but in other ways, I am better than ever and can do things I never thought imaginable. The well-adjusted in life learn to accept and work with change. Those that cannot are the ones that become depressed and mope and make excuses...and untimately quit. Worse yet are those that live vicariously through their students. In my book you still need to get out there and show you can make something of your body - no matter what that "something" is. Let the young bucks mouth on about this and about that. I'm betting I'll still be around when they are my age, and I'll smile at those that have changed and the vast majority that have made excuses and quit.
The only constant in life is change. Martial arts is one of many ways to learn to make the best of whomever you are. The more years that an individual is able to do that, the more that can be said for them. And no - I'm not talking about hero worshiping and grandiose stories about great masters with legendary abilities that don't exist. I'm talking about getting out there and inspiring the next bloke by putting the gi on and DOING. I'm talking about staying young mentally by constantly challenging yourself in whatever way seems appropriate for yourself. To me, that's the art I practice.
- Bill
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GSantaniello
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
Depth of Art !
David,
Always a pleasure to read your post. Yes, i would agree as you mentioned, my words may be vaque and subjective at times. Let me share this interesting experiment we did at work the other day.
I was one of 6 in a management training course at work. We were all asked to draw a simple picture of a house with two windows, a chimney, a door and a tree in the front yard.
Although we were all given the same directions, each and every house was different. Yes, they contained the elements, however, they were placed in different locations on the house. Point was, "interpretation" of what is said is often viewed differently from eachother.
When i refer to "depth" of art (or kata) i am simply stating that we should look into what we are pacticing and seek out more understandig of what we are practicing. Be it in Kata, pre-arranged drills or fighting, i believe that there is always room for improvement. Either in one's effectiveness or understanding.
Everytime we work on "improvement" through our study, be it in fighting, kata or any other aspects of our training we are seeking it out, are we not ?
Some are more talented in fighting than others. Natural talent is within some.
To Bill's point of Kata vs.fighting, i beleive that one must fight to learn how to respond to varables that only a partner can produce. Kata does lack that element therefor i would have to dissagree with the beleve that kata alone would suffice in self defence situations.
I agree with most of your comments. However, i tend to think that most "older" seniors are less wanting to "mix it up" as in the old days.
I for one am not. However, i beleive that one must still practice technques and applications for effectiveness and that kata alone will not serve that purpose.
Topos, thank you for you input also. It appears as though you have stayed in good shape over the years. Maybe it runs in the family !
David, hope i cleared a little bit up regarding my meaning of "deeper and understanding". It seems as though much of what one says can be controversial and or misinterpreted. Especially on the forums. Hard enough sometimes in person understanding eachother.
Best wishes,
------------------
Gary S.
Always a pleasure to read your post. Yes, i would agree as you mentioned, my words may be vaque and subjective at times. Let me share this interesting experiment we did at work the other day.
I was one of 6 in a management training course at work. We were all asked to draw a simple picture of a house with two windows, a chimney, a door and a tree in the front yard.
Although we were all given the same directions, each and every house was different. Yes, they contained the elements, however, they were placed in different locations on the house. Point was, "interpretation" of what is said is often viewed differently from eachother.
When i refer to "depth" of art (or kata) i am simply stating that we should look into what we are pacticing and seek out more understandig of what we are practicing. Be it in Kata, pre-arranged drills or fighting, i believe that there is always room for improvement. Either in one's effectiveness or understanding.
Everytime we work on "improvement" through our study, be it in fighting, kata or any other aspects of our training we are seeking it out, are we not ?
Some are more talented in fighting than others. Natural talent is within some.
To Bill's point of Kata vs.fighting, i beleive that one must fight to learn how to respond to varables that only a partner can produce. Kata does lack that element therefor i would have to dissagree with the beleve that kata alone would suffice in self defence situations.
I agree with most of your comments. However, i tend to think that most "older" seniors are less wanting to "mix it up" as in the old days.
I for one am not. However, i beleive that one must still practice technques and applications for effectiveness and that kata alone will not serve that purpose.
Topos, thank you for you input also. It appears as though you have stayed in good shape over the years. Maybe it runs in the family !
David, hope i cleared a little bit up regarding my meaning of "deeper and understanding". It seems as though much of what one says can be controversial and or misinterpreted. Especially on the forums. Hard enough sometimes in person understanding eachother.
Best wishes,
------------------
Gary S.
Depth of Art !
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
An Engineer, farmer and clerk were sentenced to death via guillotine..They all were asked whether they prefer to face death looking up at the blade or face down as cowards, they all decided to watch the blade drop (brave lot) The farmer went first and the blade was released only to stop suddenly before slicing his neck..he was released as an "act of God" saved him. The same occurred to the clerk and inspection of the machine provided no answers to the cause.
As the enginneer was placed carefully to meet his faith..all were quiet as the executer prepared to realease the blade " Hold it wait, I see the problem..a bolt is protruding into the track, help me up I can fix it!" <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Allow me one enginneer joke please (no offense intended) then serious onwards..Those that have a proper foundation can apply their core knowledge anywhere.
An Engineer, farmer and clerk were sentenced to death via guillotine..They all were asked whether they prefer to face death looking up at the blade or face down as cowards, they all decided to watch the blade drop (brave lot) The farmer went first and the blade was released only to stop suddenly before slicing his neck..he was released as an "act of God" saved him. The same occurred to the clerk and inspection of the machine provided no answers to the cause.
As the enginneer was placed carefully to meet his faith..all were quiet as the executer prepared to realease the blade " Hold it wait, I see the problem..a bolt is protruding into the track, help me up I can fix it!" <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I'M SMART!!
-
Tony-San
Depth of Art !
I dunno... to me... going deeper into kata practice is a no brainer. I really don't see what the big deal is. Maybe it's just my understanding of what deep is or isn't (kind of like what david said about ones mans deep is another mans delusion). Then again, I have an affinity with my kata practice, for many years that is all I had. I read what Gary was saying and appreciated where he was coming from.
[This message has been edited by Tony-San (edited May 01, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Tony-San (edited May 01, 2002).]
Depth of Art !
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When i refer to "depth" of art (or kata) i am simply stating that we should look into what we are pacticing and seek out more understandig of what we are practicing. Be it in Kata, pre-arranged drills or fighting, i believe that there is always room for improvement. Either in one's effectiveness or understanding.
David, hope i cleared a little bit up regarding my meaning of "deeper and understanding". It seems as though much of what one says can be controversial and or misinterpreted. Especially on the forums. Hard enough sometimes in person understanding eachother. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gary,
Thanks for putting the time and effort in the clarification. I agree with what you just posted. I guess the context of the previous thread (in Van's forum) is what led me to wonder more about what your perspective was. There Joe was asking about aand voicing some thoughts about modifying some aspects of his Uechi curricula -- specifically around kata from the perspective of his experience with and his goal of teaching a more "competitive" and hands on approach to training. Obviously Joe has years in his practice, has done and is doing his thing. Whatever he chooses, it can't be said he is not "deeper" into his art. However, as Van sensei pointed out (and I agree with), if he chooses to drop the "core kata" pieces that help define what we practice as "Uechi-Ryu" then he really is no longer an instructor of Uechi-ryu. However, this in no way reflects more or less of him as a "martial artist" (however we may choose to define "martial" and "art").
The disagreements, when they occur, really seems to come from the perspective (at the moment) of where we are each coming from when pursuing this path. The mere fact that we walk down a path generally means we are getting deeper or further down that path. Sometimes we get down far enough in the path to realize we may be on the "wrong" path for him/her! But, this understanding (if it is authentic) comes from within, not from some one saying/judging it for us. I realize that in saying this that I am also reflecting a certain perspective -- it is one that focuses on the individual being in tune and, more important, being honest with him/herself. While I realize organizations (and their demands) are necessary in many aspects of society, I think the individual bears the responsibility to think critically of what s/he is doing and this should be encouraged.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
For example, I have always had some concern that my practice has a "self-defense" component. Because of this, a lot of my practice has evolved into two person drills and freestyle. That's not to say (uechi) kata didn't play a part. It did but I no longer feel the need to go back over and over again to it for basics or reference points. It's just that I have a set basics of my own that I work on and found has work for me. I like to play around with other folks from other styles. Sometimes I learn things that illuminate something that is in one of the Uechi kata. It could be said if I have practiced "deeper" I would have found that application in the kata. But, sometimes I encounter folks who practice a kata for years on end, and still doesn't see that application or doesn't do it well because they never practice it with another. Some do see the application and can apply it. Good for the latter group. But does it really matter the method of how this group and I respectively arrive at the same point?
Believe it or not.... I still do kata though not as religiously as some. When I do kata, I don't see opponents and I don't think applications. I used to. But these days, they never can match the reality I've been through. So I don't even bother. I enjoy kata more simply as a meditative exercise -- What's my body doing, how am I breathing, where's my mind at? Is this approach "deep" or "shallow?" Frankly, I don't care what others think. It's what I get out of it that makes/allows me continue to do it. While different folks have pointed, nobody carry me down this path. I walked it on my own and hope to continue to walk it as long as I find benefit from it.
Ultimately, there are those who may think all of us are "delusional" as we make some much of what we practice. So much time and concern for perhaps a one or two in a life time encounter (okay... maybe more for some of us). Kata practice for spiritual reasons..? Why not just take a walk in the woods, smell the flowers, breath the air, take comfort and joy in our loved ones. Why some much time engaging and occupying oneself to prepare for engaging the world when they world is out there to engage? Learn humility? Take a look at a mountain and realize how long it has stood before you and will stand eons after you. I am but a speck in time and space. How marvelous!
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited May 01, 2002).]
David, hope i cleared a little bit up regarding my meaning of "deeper and understanding". It seems as though much of what one says can be controversial and or misinterpreted. Especially on the forums. Hard enough sometimes in person understanding eachother. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gary,
Thanks for putting the time and effort in the clarification. I agree with what you just posted.
I guess the context of the previous thread (in Van's forum) is what led me to wonder more about what your perspective was. There Joe was asking about aand voicing some thoughts about modifying some aspects of his Uechi curricula -- specifically around kata from the perspective of his experience with and his goal of teaching a more "competitive" and hands on approach to training. Obviously Joe has years in his practice, has done and is doing his thing. Whatever he chooses, it can't be said he is not "deeper" into his art. However, as Van sensei pointed out (and I agree with), if he chooses to drop the "core kata" pieces that help define what we practice as "Uechi-Ryu" then he really is no longer an instructor of Uechi-ryu. However, this in no way reflects more or less of him as a "martial artist" (however we may choose to define "martial" and "art").The disagreements, when they occur, really seems to come from the perspective (at the moment) of where we are each coming from when pursuing this path. The mere fact that we walk down a path generally means we are getting deeper or further down that path. Sometimes we get down far enough in the path to realize we may be on the "wrong" path for him/her!
But, this understanding (if it is authentic) comes from within, not from some one saying/judging it for us. I realize that in saying this that I am also reflecting a certain perspective -- it is one that focuses on the individual being in tune and, more important, being honest with him/herself. While I realize organizations (and their demands) are necessary in many aspects of society, I think the individual bears the responsibility to think critically of what s/he is doing and this should be encouraged.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Tony, your understanding of yourself is what counts. Watch, listen, practice, consider and analyze how it fits into your needs. Then keep silent (if one is inclined to make a judgement) and allow others to do their own process. Again, generally when we accuse others of being "delusional", it is based on a judgement of what we think the practice is about and how to go about it rather than where the other is coming from.Maybe it's just my understanding of what deep is or isn't (kind of like what david said about ones mans deep is another mans delusion).
For example, I have always had some concern that my practice has a "self-defense" component. Because of this, a lot of my practice has evolved into two person drills and freestyle. That's not to say (uechi) kata didn't play a part. It did but I no longer feel the need to go back over and over again to it for basics or reference points. It's just that I have a set basics of my own that I work on and found has work for me. I like to play around with other folks from other styles. Sometimes I learn things that illuminate something that is in one of the Uechi kata. It could be said if I have practiced "deeper" I would have found that application in the kata. But, sometimes I encounter folks who practice a kata for years on end, and still doesn't see that application or doesn't do it well because they never practice it with another. Some do see the application and can apply it. Good for the latter group. But does it really matter the method of how this group and I respectively arrive at the same point?
Believe it or not....
I still do kata though not as religiously as some. When I do kata, I don't see opponents and I don't think applications. I used to. But these days, they never can match the reality I've been through. So I don't even bother. I enjoy kata more simply as a meditative exercise -- What's my body doing, how am I breathing, where's my mind at? Is this approach "deep" or "shallow?" Frankly, I don't care what others think. It's what I get out of it that makes/allows me continue to do it. While different folks have pointed, nobody carry me down this path. I walked it on my own and hope to continue to walk it as long as I find benefit from it.Ultimately, there are those who may think all of us are "delusional" as we make some much of what we practice. So much time and concern for perhaps a one or two in a life time encounter (okay... maybe more for some of us). Kata practice for spiritual reasons..? Why not just take a walk in the woods, smell the flowers, breath the air, take comfort and joy in our loved ones. Why some much time engaging and occupying oneself to prepare for engaging the world when they world is out there to engage?
Learn humility? Take a look at a mountain and realize how long it has stood before you and will stand eons after you. I am but a speck in time and space. How marvelous! david
[This message has been edited by david (edited May 01, 2002).]
Depth of Art !
I think a bit of clarification is in order.
I agree with Gary that we should all continue our quest deep into the kata, but not at the exclusion of other ancillary companion components, cross training or modern concepts, that can be just as valid overall in honing defensive skills.
What irritates me and other well respected seniors, and the fighters of today, is the attitude of some Uechi practitioners who utterly disdain the intrinsic value of the other components, and, arrogantly so, tell you the reason why you think you are missing something, thus a need to cross train, is because you are not “going deeper” into the kata.
The answer is to do both, and the best of Uechi does precisely that.
Arrogance will get you nowhere, the time will come when you might just have to prove how deep you have been in your kata, and how you measure up against cross training.
I’d like to see a demo of “kata depth” against guys like Joe Pomfret and Jim De Luca.
Like Tracy says “talk is cheap” __
------------------
Van Canna
I agree with Gary that we should all continue our quest deep into the kata, but not at the exclusion of other ancillary companion components, cross training or modern concepts, that can be just as valid overall in honing defensive skills.
What irritates me and other well respected seniors, and the fighters of today, is the attitude of some Uechi practitioners who utterly disdain the intrinsic value of the other components, and, arrogantly so, tell you the reason why you think you are missing something, thus a need to cross train, is because you are not “going deeper” into the kata.
The answer is to do both, and the best of Uechi does precisely that.
Arrogance will get you nowhere, the time will come when you might just have to prove how deep you have been in your kata, and how you measure up against cross training.
I’d like to see a demo of “kata depth” against guys like Joe Pomfret and Jim De Luca.
Like Tracy says “talk is cheap” __
------------------
Van Canna
Depth of Art !
Tony,
May I suggest that you don't take comments to close unless something is directly addressed to you and/or you were quoted.
Alot of folks post generally. Even if a post comes sequentially, it doesn't mean that it has to directly address something previous.
A lot of times posters go off tangentially. I know I often do. My mind doesn't work linearly too well.
david
May I suggest that you don't take comments to close unless something is directly addressed to you and/or you were quoted.
Alot of folks post generally. Even if a post comes sequentially, it doesn't mean that it has to directly address something previous.
A lot of times posters go off tangentially. I know I often do. My mind doesn't work linearly too well.
david
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Depth of Art !
HEY, I resemble that remark!!! (In more ways than one.).
I call it parallel processing, david. Other people just say I talk too much...
- Bill
(In more ways than one.).I call it parallel processing, david. Other people just say I talk too much...
- Bill
