Uechi-Ryu Kicking !

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 9:53 pm

hi deep sea, ( i assume your allen moulton? if so, i really like your site)

you just reminded me. the first karate dojo i went to was a uechi one. the club was ok, it was in England, nobody could really kick at all, but there was one guy who was a brown belt he was from Canada, his name was bob.I saw him do one trick ive never seen anybody else do, he would stand in a sanchin stance with his hands in a guard position, and raise one leg into the front kick position, hold it there, then lower himself on the other leg so that he was about a foot from the ground, then go up again. he could do this on both sides, i was pretty impressed
by that as well.( this was about 30 years ago)

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:43 am

Gary,
I always teach roundhouse kicks with junbi undo at the start of class, I put it in after the side kicks. Once a month or so I teach the spinning kick, cross over (step behind) kick, and side thrust kick against a shield. When I do this I dispense with the kata training usually.
Some integrate this into sparring right away, some don't. My own 2 kids who train with me have a huge difference in flexibility, and the more flexible one kicks better. I could kick high when I was a teen, fortunately Van taught me how to kick low and hard now that I'm a little older.
fred

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:25 am

Interesting thread. Of course many don't realize that a number of Okinawan Uechi fighters of the past were very proficient with TKD type kicks like many of their American counterparts who went on to win National and Regional championships.

My dojo was big with these kicking variations in our tournament days, and a powerful kicking repertoire is a useful arsenal in combat with those shots “in reserve”!

Unless you have faced a diversified and powerful kicker up close and personal you cannot understand the trouble you are in.

A current Uechi example is our Jim Whitherell, who is a graduate of Bill Wallace’s cross training.

If anyone wants to try out his Uechi Bravado against Jim, be my guest. Make sure I am invited to watch the “goring of the bull”!

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Van Canna

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:19 am

One of the best filmed examples I ever saw of knock out high kicks is "fighting black belt Kings" filmed at a tournament in the 70's. I rented it at the public library for those in the Boston area. It has several examples of that spinning heel kick Allen mentioned.
Nasty looking kick, when done well.
f.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:11 am

Van Sensei, I was fortunate enough to catch a Superfoot fight back in the late seventies. (Ringside Halifax Metro Center

) Bill Wallace deserved the nickname! Best kicker I've seen period.

If memory serves Bill use to throw a kick combo off one leg, I believe it was sidekick, hook kick, roundhouse. The combo was fast; he never put the kicking foot down. He could hop on the supporting leg and establish a new angle and unleash it over and over.

The combo delivered a kick from three different angles and he kept them coming all night long.

The really great thing about Mr. Wallace was that when he put that foot back on the ground he was capable of throwing a really devastating hook! Nothing one dimensional about that man!

Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited June 20, 2002).]

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

TKD type kicks like many of their American counterparts who went on to win National and Regional championships.

I haven’t read martial arts magazines for years, so I don’t know if He Il Cho is written about, of if anyone fairly new to the arts knows his name and who he is. For the sake of brevity, he’s the real thing, famous in TKD circles, a true high-ranking TKD master with abilities of the best – and he knows how to teach. Years ago, 30 or so, before moving to California, he had a TKD dojang in Rhode Island, either Pawtucket or Providence, and often conducted and/or joined in sparring matches with some of the best Uechi-ryu New England offered in those days. There was a wealth ok knowledge and abilities that was cross-pollinated amongst those who sparred.

It seems like it was only several years ago that I was able to arrange for some powerful TKD stylists/fighters to come from a neighboring state to the Boston area for a weekend of friendly sparring exchanges between them and Uechi-ryu. However, to those whom I approach lent a deaf ear. Why? I can only guess but know the responses to my suggestions were only smoke. Those attitudes cemented the belief that Mainstream Uechi was not then, and may never be, open to learn sparring from tough dogs of a style that many in Uechi have an attitude their kicks aren’t worth a dang. Ignorance may be bliss, but the turning of the back was a definite large-scale loss. To many, Uechi doesn’t need more than a few kata, bunkai and kumite in order to be the superior “style.”

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

A current Uechi example is our Jim Whitherell. . . a graduate of Bill Wallace’s cross training.

I never knew his involvement was with Superfoot. That explains why they are so good with their legs and have exceptional stretch – all of them. But it’s NOT Uechi.

Fred, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

My own 2 kids who train with me have a huge difference in flexibility, and the more flexible one kicks better

Keep them working on it, Get to them before their leg muscles start to develop because it will stay with them for life. Teach the flexible one the tornado kick and keep at it. Kids as well as adults who can do it usually love that one.

Jorvik, The best demonstration of leg power I’ve ever seen was about 30 years ago when Bo-Sim-Mak demonstrated parts of tai-chi for me when I visited her during the days I was scouting for my first Tai-chi kwan. If she was trying to impress, she really did with a demonstration of power second to none. She would front kick in extreme slow motion, gracefully move her leg forward and hold it fully extended for a loooong length of time, seemingly void of exertion (she had big, thick, heavy thighs too) and void of other body movement as well. Her other kigh Tai-chi kicks were performed effortlessly in the same manner, demonstrating tremendous power in the supporting leg as well as throughout the entire midsection. True power often comes from unexpected places.

The shocker is that several years ago I recognized only one other, our own John Thurston, as having the same exact type of unique leg power. I would NEVER want to get in front of his unassuming front kick, even if gently delivered.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:29 am

"so I don’t know if He Il Cho is written about, of if anyone fairly new to the arts knows his name and who he is."

I trained under his brother for a while. He didn't speak much english... mostly "MORE POWER!!!", "MY SCHOOL... POWER!!!" Flippy kicks my ass. I was scared ****less to spar there. And oh ya, he allowed punches.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:56 am

the last big tournament i was at, the heavyweight blackbelt final came to a quick conclusion when one black belt tried to block/stand his ground against a spinning heel kick , 1 broken jaw later the guy won from disqualification , nastiest thing i ever saw .

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:31 am

I seem to have a permanent chip on my shoulder regarding TKD. Someone just smack me next time I get started.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 3:58 am

Allen,
I'm not familiar with the tornado kick, can you explain or link a picture of it? I've probably seen it but never heard it named.
Fred

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 4:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

one black belt tried to block/stand his ground against a spinning heel kick, 1 broken jaw later the guy won from disqualification, nastiest thing i ever saw.

Seen many knockouts from that kick. He Il Cho also had a Dojang in Franklin Mass where one of his students, Mr. Thibodeau taught, I believe. He knocked out the feisty “Wildcat Molina” from the New York “Toughies” in one local tournament here; I thought the man was dead.

Our Robert Bethoney used the same kick on “wildcat” splitting his mask in half and knocking him out as well.

We used that kick a lot in my Dojo. Very devastating and hard to read and jam. One of my students broke another’s forearm right through the kicking shield at a demo in a mall once. Ribs and arms have a tendency to get splintered by that kick.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Years ago, 30 or so, before moving to California, he had a TKD dojang in Rhode Island, either Pawtucket or Providence, and often conducted and/or joined in sparring matches with some of the best Uechi-Ryu New England offered in those days.

Yes we fought many of his students, especially when it went to full contact. The natural enemy of Master Cho and his students were Dennis Passaretti [knock out] and his “stable mates” from Pesare’s school.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

It seems like it was only several years ago that I was able to arrange for some powerful TKD stylists/fighters to come from a neighboring state to the Boston area for a weekend of friendly sparring exchanges between them and Uechi-Ryu. However, to those whom I approach lent a deaf ear. Why?

Simple answer: arrogance and fear.

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Van Canna

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:51 am

glad to hear Bill Wallace mentioned

im a big fan of his. From what ive read of him he did wrestling and judo before switching to karate. Somewhere along the line he damaged his right leg, and as a left hander decided to concentrate on using only his left leg to kick-here it gets clever-
instead of doing lots of different kicks he concentrated on three, roundhouse,side and hook. what he did was, raise his leg into a high chamber position, so that it was a defence, and hard to get around. and from that position he threw tremendously fast kicks, in combinations. they all came from the same high chamber position and so there was no telegraphing, making it easy to walk into one of his kicks e.g.stepping over to get out of the way of a roundhouse and walking into a hook.he was also very good with his hands, and i think was ranked as a boxer.he wasnt a tkd man though, i think it was shorin, or perhaps shotokan.
he il cho is a great kicker, more known for his
amazing energy and power. he s very very good
also.
both men have written books in the past, and he il cho had a whole series and they were excellent.
bill wallace appeared in a few low budget kung fu type movies, but his skill is very evident.
I tried to model my kicking around bill wallace s style ( imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery) and not being supple or a natural athlete it looked nothing like the original. which serves to prove a very profound principle ( one that blues guitarists have known for years)if you copy something badly, it will look totally original

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:09 am

Van,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

He Il Cho also had a Dojang in Franklin Mass

I thought it was his but wasn't going to lead with my nose on that one.

Thanks.

There were unhappy grumblings from that place when He left, and I remember those students felt lost and abandoned and didn't know what to do. Seems it was a shock to some in this area when he moved to California.

TSDguy,

I'm not going to knock the chip off, but sounds like it's delicately balanced. Go ahead, I can take it...

jorvik,

I remember watching Superfoot fight at the old Auditorium on Route 1 in Providence, years ago. He would tell his opponent where he was going to kick him, and proceeded in doing just that.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

he il cho had a whole series and they were excellent.

I have Vol II and Vol II of "The Complete Tae Kwon Do Hyung" , and wore the covers off both of them. His plus the official ITF volume set are the best TKD books in the world.

Fred,

I'll show you how to do that one, but don't ask at the TC because we don't do TKD there

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

Victor · Post by **Victor** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:21 am

If I may enter the discussion, this brings back many memories. But today, years of arthritis onset have limited much of my previous range. I can still do them, but pay a very heavy price should I choose to do so.

Essentially the pure Isshinryu system presents the much of the same range of kicking techniques as Ueichi does, abet incorporating Goju's lower side kicks. But my instructors have always incorporated other ranges of kicking technique.

Then I trained in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan for several years, and have a fair knowledge of the Korean approach, with their spining and jumping techniques.

What I've discovered is a very wide range of possiblites. Among them.

Using Bill Wallace as an example, I took a long clinic with him in 1976, when he was almost at his peak. Literally the 3 kicks he was throwing, he could throw hundereds without putting his foot back on the ground.

The Wallace technique was based on his unique physical capabilities. He could do full splits (an entire range of them) but more so when standing on one foot, the left leg was chambered right on his chest, so there would be a straight line from his left knee down through his supporting right leg.

This gave hime a 3rd arm, and being perfectly balanced allowed him to use his quads to throw multiple, multiple kicks with perfect balance. He could even brush your hair back in slow motion, or tell great black belts what kicks he was throwing, and moving his leg faster than they could block, 100% of the time go right through thier blocks.

There are some lessons there. Others imitating his concept, without his physical capabilites, ended up even with great kicks, lumbering out of balance. He was never out of balance. Next he trained like a demon. Thousands of kicks a day and hours of stretching, no pain no gain. But maintained a rule that if your kicks weren't 100% right you should stop practice at the moment you lost it. Practicing bad kicks was worthless, even for conditioning. You were only practicing how to do them wrong.

In Point fighting, he was very dominate. If one tried to handle his kicks they lost. But, those who fought their fight and took it to him, could win, they just had to be skilled so that his kicks didnt' make a difference, not easy to accept but did occur.

Yes he came from several arts, but when the PKA developed, he found Boxing hand tecniques were were his KO's came from. He could readily throw his requisite kicks a round, but it was the hands that became his bread and butter, not the kicks. Food for thought isn't it, too.

Where Wallace is a great example of one rarefied form of kicking, there are certainly many other exmaples. One of my Isshirnyu instructors was a superb counter kicker, especially against korean style kickers. But his technique was a superb sense of distance so he could jam chest to chest an attacker, and then kick them in the head from that range as they tried to get away. Similar to Bill's unique physical capabilites, his use of distance was likewise unique to him and allowed him to control anyone's attack, allowing hime to choose when to kick.

As in the above two examples, the essential concept was developing a personal kicking style, and training appropriately.

I could go on, but I don't believe there is one answer, just training to sell the choice that fits the individual. I personally believe Sanchin (Ueichi or Isshinyru's for example) can defeat any 'kicker' if one trains appropriately to learn how to manage distance and strike when the time presents itself. I know that isn't easy to do, but then what is?

Almost anything can be used to counter anything else, if one learns how to do so. If one is willing to pay the price to learn how to do so.

No Sanchin practice alone won't do it. Yet working Sanchin against those who are trying to take your head off with spinning back kicks, can be used to train into that potential.

Running a program for a long time, it is true, when you have great 'kickers' training it inspires the other students into better kicking. Yet that is only one dimension.

If Bill Wallace serves as an example, it is training effectively to make your unique approach work is the goal. Unceasing training against real opponents too to develop the correct range of skills.

Now I wonder if the long range answer is best to try and imitate Bill Wallace, or to try and imitate those who've defeated him?

I don't have a simple answer.

Of course I'm just an aging, thicker, older slower individual who's more likely to want to engage anyone in a tai chi fight to the finish at very slow speeds, anyway.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:26 am

quote

"one black belt tried to block/stand his ground against a spinning heel kick, 1 broken jaw later the guy won from disqualification, nastiest thing i ever saw"

what exactly is meant by a spinning heel kick? I used to do a crescent kick with a reverse spin ( see a lot of chinese doing this) its a pretty close in type of kick and i used to be able to work crescent kicks in with punches.
or, you can do a spin kick which is pretty much like a hook kick with a spin. ( i knocked a guy out with one of those accidentaly, he ran in on me just as i d gone into the spin).
the best one that ive ever seen, and could never do myself was a variation on the last type ( or maybe that should be visa/versa)
in this one you kinda drop your bodydown toward your knee and twist -feels like your falling over- your leg is at right angles, and the weight of your body carries you through. its both fast and powerful, and looks really beautiful, its the best kick that ive ever seen, i imagine that, as there is no speed or strength involved that you could do this one well into later life.
by the way IMHO anyone who tries to block a kick is stupid.
imagine if that guy had of tried to block he il cho or bill wallace- he d be on a ventillator now.