I recently had the opportunity to view the 1995 tape of Suparempei kata being performed. It was the Uechi Magazine recording, and was followed by a lengthy interview of the man who brought the kata back from Okinawa. (His name is eluding me at the moment, but I remember his first name being Simon.)
Anyway, as Simon was (at least at that time)primarily a Goju practioner, his performance of the kata was with a Goju interpretation. My question is related to the verification of that particular Kata as being the actual fourth kata brought back by Uechi Kanbun.
I realize that this may be a old topic for most ot you, but does anyone know if this is the real McKoy? And, are there any tapes available showing the kata being performed in a traditional Uechi manner.
Thanks in advance
Suparempei
Moderator: Available
Suparempei
Some hand-me-down thoughts from Dr. Glasheen, who's my source on the kata and (I presume) stars in the video you saw.
1) Simon ... Lailey
2) I don't think the kata really was "brought back," by Kanbun. He didn't teach it, from what I've heard. The clues that he saw it or learned it are serial wauke-bushikens and sokuto-geri which appear in kata created by his student and son.
3) That kata as taught by Lailey may be influenced by Goju, but the kata we know as original from Pangainoon are far from uninfluenced by Uechi (the persons, not the art). Afterall there seems to be substantial modification from what Kanbun learned and presumably taught (see tapes from the 60's comparing Tomoyose dojo to kata as performed by Kanei). So if people want "real" Uechi, they don't want the original Chinese kata (at the moment Kanbun was in China) they want how it would look filtered by Kanbun and Kanei.
4) There is no actual kata to bring back. The impression (again second hand data) of people training in the region is that the kata are in a state of continuous change and reinterpretation. The artists there think the japanese and american interests in liquid nitrogen indefinite exact preservation of kata are curious, and previous postings here (I like Mattson Sensei's) mention how our Uechi is viewd as being a preservation of a moment in time of Chinese MA, or something along those lines. What Kanbun saw in southern China is presumably irretrievably lost. What we have are cousins, or rather grandchildren, or the orginal beast. Maybe some DNA reconstruction is in order, but another way to look at it is that if the creature is under constant change, what we're looking at is part of that tradition and IS in a way, that original exercise. Instead of regretting that only chickens are left of dinosaurs, we might instead say that the same Colorado river is right in front of us, it just looks a little different.
If that makes any sense.
1) Simon ... Lailey
2) I don't think the kata really was "brought back," by Kanbun. He didn't teach it, from what I've heard. The clues that he saw it or learned it are serial wauke-bushikens and sokuto-geri which appear in kata created by his student and son.
3) That kata as taught by Lailey may be influenced by Goju, but the kata we know as original from Pangainoon are far from uninfluenced by Uechi (the persons, not the art). Afterall there seems to be substantial modification from what Kanbun learned and presumably taught (see tapes from the 60's comparing Tomoyose dojo to kata as performed by Kanei). So if people want "real" Uechi, they don't want the original Chinese kata (at the moment Kanbun was in China) they want how it would look filtered by Kanbun and Kanei.
4) There is no actual kata to bring back. The impression (again second hand data) of people training in the region is that the kata are in a state of continuous change and reinterpretation. The artists there think the japanese and american interests in liquid nitrogen indefinite exact preservation of kata are curious, and previous postings here (I like Mattson Sensei's) mention how our Uechi is viewd as being a preservation of a moment in time of Chinese MA, or something along those lines. What Kanbun saw in southern China is presumably irretrievably lost. What we have are cousins, or rather grandchildren, or the orginal beast. Maybe some DNA reconstruction is in order, but another way to look at it is that if the creature is under constant change, what we're looking at is part of that tradition and IS in a way, that original exercise. Instead of regretting that only chickens are left of dinosaurs, we might instead say that the same Colorado river is right in front of us, it just looks a little different.
If that makes any sense.
Suparempei
Actually Ian, there is a Uechi magazine video with Simon performing the suparempi kata (and another one) that he learned in China, followed by an interesting lengthy discussion between him and George. I believe this is the video NEB saw.
However NEB, as Ian alluded to there is another Uechi magazine video in which Bill Glasheen performs the same suparempi kata with a more Uechi interpretation.
Note NEB that Simon brought that suparempi kata back from China, not Okinawa.
2) One comment about whether Kanbun also "brought back" suparempi from China. I've heard/seen two stories on this:
- That Kanbun did not learn suparempi. Usually it is said that he did not train with Shushiwa long enough to learn suparempi.
- That he at least started to learn suparempi and may have practised it himself, but did not teach it. Usually in this version it is said that he never felt competent enough with it to teach it.
I'm not sure of the legitimacy or accuracy of either view. It is interesting that elements of suparempi appear in Uechi Ryu kata created in the 1950s and 60s though.
3 & 4) Well said Ian, I couldn't agree with you more.
By the way NEB, your question ties into another currently active thread, "shu shi wa's nephew???", which includes discussion of Simon's training in China and who he trained with (icluding who he learned suparempi from). It also includes a posting of the text of an article Simon wrote about one of his training experiences in China. You may want to check out that thread if you have not done so yet:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum11/HTML/001267.html
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Glenn
However NEB, as Ian alluded to there is another Uechi magazine video in which Bill Glasheen performs the same suparempi kata with a more Uechi interpretation.
Note NEB that Simon brought that suparempi kata back from China, not Okinawa.
2) One comment about whether Kanbun also "brought back" suparempi from China. I've heard/seen two stories on this:
- That Kanbun did not learn suparempi. Usually it is said that he did not train with Shushiwa long enough to learn suparempi.
- That he at least started to learn suparempi and may have practised it himself, but did not teach it. Usually in this version it is said that he never felt competent enough with it to teach it.
I'm not sure of the legitimacy or accuracy of either view. It is interesting that elements of suparempi appear in Uechi Ryu kata created in the 1950s and 60s though.
3 & 4) Well said Ian, I couldn't agree with you more.
By the way NEB, your question ties into another currently active thread, "shu shi wa's nephew???", which includes discussion of Simon's training in China and who he trained with (icluding who he learned suparempi from). It also includes a posting of the text of an article Simon wrote about one of his training experiences in China. You may want to check out that thread if you have not done so yet:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum11/HTML/001267.html
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Glenn
Suparempei
OOhhhh ........
So Simon brought it back from China. For some reason I was not getting that.
Thanks for the clarification and other info. Now, How can I get ahold of the Uechi Magazine video with Bill Glasheen's Suparempei?
So Simon brought it back from China. For some reason I was not getting that.
Thanks for the clarification and other info. Now, How can I get ahold of the Uechi Magazine video with Bill Glasheen's Suparempei?
Suparempei
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NEB:
How can I get ahold of the Uechi Magazine video with Bill Glasheen's Suparempei?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depending on how you view these postings, there should be a banner at the top on this page advertising George's store, this video is available there. Here is a shortcut to the video listing at the store as well:
http://karateworld.safeshopper.com/14/36.htm?770
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Glenn
How can I get ahold of the Uechi Magazine video with Bill Glasheen's Suparempei?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depending on how you view these postings, there should be a banner at the top on this page advertising George's store, this video is available there. Here is a shortcut to the video listing at the store as well:
http://karateworld.safeshopper.com/14/36.htm?770
------------------
Glenn
