Hitting to the throat

[Dana Sheets]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The throat is a good target zone which can not be built up like other vital spots can. The results from a well-focused blow to the front or side can have multiple effects and results.

Contusions of Carotid, Jugular and Vertbratal Vein, Contusions of Vegas or Phrenic Nerve, Cartilage Fracture, Frature of the Spinous Process, Hematoman in the Carotid Sheath.

Rupturing of the internal jugular vein from striking it against the hard service of the cervical certebra would result in a fast death due to a massive hemorrhage. Severe contusion of the Carotid can produce a restiction in blood flow which could end in blood clots which could lead to the brain at a later date.

The Vagus nerve deals with the important functions of heart contraction and lung constriction which if attacked can lead to serious complications besides just ko's. The Phrenic nerve when injured can provide the same feeling that one gets when the wind has been knocked out of them. If the Hypoglossal nerve is damaged the tongue could lose control and sufocation can happen if swallowed. Death by strangulation will follow if a hematoma in the sheath occurs that ecompasses the internal jugular, carotid and vagus nerve in the neck, if the tear does not deal itself immediatley the hematoma will grow larger with each pulsation of the heart and start pressing against the trachea until it has compressed it enough to stimulate the laryngeal nerves to close off.

That used to be a common occurance when police used the now outlawed two-handed "billy club" choke on the criminals trachea.

The cops would find the guy dead of strangulation or suffocation in his cell hours after the incident<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The above was posted on another forum I read. Can anyone confirm/rebuke what is stated?

Dana
ps - please don't try this at home.

[Ian]

A lot of theory in here, some of it fantasy, some of it possible.

I've never heard of an internal jugular being ruptured by blunt trauma, but, Dr. Kelley's text seems to be the place to look these days. Fast death would NOT occur from hemorrhage. There isn't enough room in the neck to loose the kind of volume required. You might get a hematoma, but, eh, likely not so big a deal. Venous blood isn't under much pressure at all. Carotid "contusion" isn't a term I'm familiar with. They do get narrow, or tear, and injury could predispose to plaques forming and narrowing the vessel, which does produce turbulence that can lead to clots and stroke. However, this only means you should be careful if kyusho-guy wants to hit you in the neck, and it has no relevance to striking the neck in a fight situation. There is a vertebral ARTERY of note, but no significant vein. The artery runs through the wings of the vertebrae, and could be damaged with stabbing or twisting of the neck... but I don't think with blunt trauma.

Nerve "contusions" (phrenic and "(las) vegas," ahem, vagus: Nerves don't "bruise" or "contuse" much, but they do get stunned or crushed. Phrenic nerves stimulate the diaphragm to contract; there is one on each side and they are not uncommonly damaged during heart surgery. The result of one being damaged is often minimal in the sense the person can still breathe fine with only half a diaphragm. Not ideal for sports obviously. Frequently function recovers. Never heard of phrenic nerve injury from striking, but ask someone who does trauma, I don't. I've bet people with phrenic nerve injury and none said they felt like the wind was knocked out of them.

The vagus has an activity to slow the heart (and controls a lot of gut functions; vagotomy used to be a big part of stomach acid control before we had better medicines). People who've had heart transplants run a tachycardia at baseline because the nerves are severed, and they do fine. In fights sympathetic function predominates anyway and tachycardia is desirable. "Lung constriction" doesn't make much sense to me; if he means parasympathetic bronchiolar constriction, that would be undesirable in a fight anyway, and overridden by sympathetic input. Combat impact: zero. Unless you STIMULATE the vagus to slow the heart, and that's a theory behind why stomach 9 KO's people; its also been invoked for other points.

Fracture of the spinous process: this portion of each vertebrae points backwards. Damage doesn't endanger any nerves or arteries. Since it's midline in the back, striking the throat won't break it.

The hypoglossal nerve does control the tongue, although this whole thing about tongue swallowing is vastly overrated, and wouldn't happen with unilateral (from striking) damage anyway. All you have to do if the back of the tongue is obstructing the airway is tilt the head back; this is the first step after look/listen/feel for breathing in basic life support, provided there is no chance of spinal trauma.

The carotid sheath is fibrous tissue that surrounds the artery, the internal jugular vein, and the vagus nerve. If there's a hematoma there (most commonly from a medicine resident trying to stick an iv in the vein) hematomas do develop. I've never seen any clinical consequences. The vein may be compressed, so drainage of the head occurs through the 3 other jugular veins. The artery will not compress because the pressure in the vein and therfore the hematoma will not exceed arterial pressure. The nerve should be fine too. An ARTERIAL bleed could compress the trachea; I had a patient once who had a thyroid artery bleed that required her intubation for airway protection. (She got a pneumonia, nearly died, and was never the same and went to a nursing home afterwards). I don't know of any carotid RUPTURES that have occured from a punch and they sem far less likely than a carotid artery dissection (tear). No hematoma then. Hemorrhage would occur with a stab wound, which would most likely decompress the neck preventing a hematoma.

If the throat did close off it wouldn't be from nerve stimulation. The recurrent nerves do keep the larynx open, but unilateral loss of function causes only hoarseness, and I think a hematoma of sufficient size and mass to compress BOTH would be distinctly unusual. Compression would not occur at the larynx where larger amounts of stiff cartilage is present.

The criminal had trouble breathing not because of a hematoma compressing the recurrent nerves, but because a friggin billyclub was crushing their throat. Or so I wager. This could easily lead to edema of the injured trachea and airway stenosis.

In sum, the poster sounds like he's freelancing. But we all know hitting the neck works when you've got a shot, right?

[Ian]

I agree hitting someone in the throat is a last resort... but I think fighting at all is the last resort. If I have to hurt someone, unless it's some I think I can easily and safely control, they're going to get pummeled just for my safety and possibly that of others. I'm not going to spar with someone my size, for example, to wait and see exactly how much trouble I'm in.

So if I think I've got to fight, then I take the best shot I can get on the first attack, hopefully a surprise attack. That's the only time I think I'd be likely to get a shot at the neck anyway.

[hthom]

I am more of a practical kind of a guy so I usually skip the theories. I teach my students the throat strike as one of the last resort defenses because of the potential damage it may cause to the opponent. We really don't want to hurt anyone more than we have to.

For a small person such as myself, the throat strike, especially done with a vertical Uechi-type knuckle strike aiming upward toward the throat at someone much taller, IMHO it is devastating. Try it on Bob-the-dummy sometimes and set Bob at 6'-4", the perfect height for the strike by a 5'7-ish small person. I train my students to do that about 10 times each hand every workout as part of the warm ups and muscle-memory exercises.

The vertical knuckle throat strike is in our arsenal reserved for an encounter where the BG really got it coming.

[This message has been edited by hthom (edited September 02, 2002).]

[Bill Glasheen]

The more I go through that passage, the more I think of the old saying "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing." Ian pretty much was all over this one.

Neck strikes - IMHO - are quite useful. But there's something to remember here. There's a BIG difference between what CAN happen when you hit the neck at any one location and what is LIKELY to happen when you do the same thing. All sorts of freakish things - like carotid artery dissections - CAN happen. But forget about reproducing that one in real life!

This reminds me of a program I saw last night that has the woman forensic pathologist in it. Someone had bulletproof armor on. She got shot in the hand, and the bullet traveled up the arm, ricocheting here and there against bones and even the armor itself. Without the armor, she would have lived; with it, she died. Bummer! But don't count on reproducing that feat; give me the jacket any day.

S*** happens. When we prepare for a fight, we train for the probable and accept the improbable. But this also means that when we teach, we must be wary of improbable but serious events that can put you out of business and - worse yet - cause death.

There are several VERY practical "neck" techniques worth training for. Some just control the person, some cause a KO, and some can do some serious harm to the cervical spine.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I think another thing to remember is the context of the post that Dana shared. If you are a law enforcement officer, then some techniques that are EXTREMELY practical and effective are off limits because REALLY bad things happen once in a blue moon. One adverse event can cost the taxpayers millions of dollars, even though the police were dealing with a really bad person. This is why "choke holds" or "lateral vascular neck restraints" are off limits for many police departments. It's also why policemen train to hit specific areas of the body, and certain areas are considered off limits for most practical situations.

- Bill

[Guest]

I've always been fond of the neck as a target or as a handle to pull the head into my strikes.

The throat is a serious target,I'm told that striking it can cause death.

Then again the BG is trying to harm you in a street fight. Any fight can end in a death. It just takes one strike and some bad luck. Boxers die in the ring.Your head striking the concrete could kill you.

Being your basic coward, I try and talk my way out. When it's obvious I'm not going to talk my way out then I'm predispossed to first strike.

I do not delude my self, when the fight starts the BG is trying to harm me. One lucky shot or one fall to the concrete and it could end there. I have no guarantee that if I go down the BG is not going to kick me until I'm a pile of lifeless meat.

For that reason when I enter a fight my mindset is I'm fighting for my life anybody striking me is trying to kill me or inflict serious injury.

All targets are acceptable, I have an obligation to my family I'll not gamble with my life.

Once engaged I believe one should not stop until it's over, I don't buy into the moral issues of what you should or should not strike. You reap what you sow, so if the BG wants to dance he should get his just reward.

Laird

Sorry it's how I see it.

[Bill Glasheen]

Different context; proper mindset.

[hthom]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by uglyelk:
----------- For that reason when I enter a fight my mindset is I'm fighting for my life anybody striking me is trying to kill me or inflict serious injury.

All targets are acceptable, I have an obligation to my family I'll not gamble with my life.------

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree with both you and Ian-San to an extend. Your philosophy is also popular with quite a few of the well known self-defense "experts".

To avoid misunderstanding, let mke first admit that I am no saint at all whatsoever,and I have done my share of damages. But, being a family man with a house and obligations, getting sued or being put in jail and/or losing my job have got to be part of the consideration. And, if we go around calling ourselves martial-arts guys, we really can't and should not overlook the ethical and moral part of the picture.

Yes, I know, "better judged by 12 than carried", it is not a simple issue.

We must be determined to win during an attack, but using the big gun at the drop of a pin may not really be necessary, or the thing to do. Just my humle opinion for consideration.

[Guest]

Using the big gun at the drop of a pin may not really be necessary, or the thing to do. Just my humble opinion for consideration
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I hear you Henry, and agree to an extent as well. Hell we may agree and just be having communication problems.

No need to drop the big gun at the drop of a pin, No need to turn the BG into a pile of hamburger after he's been beaten.

You also don't have to blast away full power into the throat to stop your opponent. I'm just saying if the targets there and someone is trying to bust my melon, I'll not pass on the opportunity to attack the windpipe.


We go around calling ourselves martial-arts guys; we really can't and should not overlook the ethical and moral part of the picture.
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The ethics and morality?
Okay again I see a wee bit and agree.

I have a moral and ethical code that will not permit me to go out and instigate fights.

Because I train hour after hour week after week year after year, Theory has it that I'm a little more comfortable moving around kicks and punches than the average Joe, who does not.

I shouldn't provoke the average Joe, I should attempt to defuse the situation, and if it escalates I probably will prevail. I'm comfortable operating in these moral confines I embrace them.

Hey folks

If somebody is trying to cave in your gourd what exactly are the rules?

When is it ok to go full tilt? When is it okay to gouge the eyes, strike the throat, kick the testicles, bust a knee or elbow? What are these moral rules? Where are they written? Are there rules about, bitch slapping the BG? Hair pulling? Where is this bible of moral conduct to which I must subscribe?

Sorry for the rant.

Look many years ago I was given a lesson. The lesson began with a 2x4 delivered to the back of my melon. I slept through the most of the lesson but it was delivered with lumber and several pairs of steel-toed boots. I'm not sure what these educators were trying to teach me but I took two things away form it.

1. When you're unconscious the BG's decide if you live or die.

2. I'll use whatever means necessary to ensure I'm the guy making the decisions.

So lesson # 2 tells me it's okay to drop one in on the throat. I'll not lie in front of someone's boots again praying for leniency as they kick the crap out of me.

Laird

[hthom]

Yes, like I said, it is not a simple issue. It's one of those damn if you do and damn if you don't situations :-)