Women and the "garbage mouth"

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu Aug 24, 2000 3:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Professor Mattson:

I remember an old adage "If you are small and pick a fight with a big guy and win, you are a hero. Lose and the big guy is a bully." In other words, the big guy always loses a fight. (This only works where lots of people are watching)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know so many martial arts and lethal force instructors that have that same opinion! I share that opinion as well.

I'm personally at a distinct disadvantage in any altercation, specifically because I'm 6'2", ~275# (now, but working on it

), have martial arts training AND carry. Back and knee injuries, shoulder displacement injuries, knee surgery and various other ailments that mean I basically can't run from an attacker make little difference in the perception of the general public. The fact that it is painful for me to walk, somedays I have to use a cane (cane techniques are neat

) and being in one position for too long causes my back to "freeze-up", won't win me any points in the eyes of the media were I to be involved in a confrontation. However, if my attacker were larger or there was more than one or there was some other disparity of force, then just maybe I'd be allowed some leavity by the authorities. Previously, I've been lucky in confrontations, with the responding LEOs understanding who was the attacker and who the intended victim... or in the fact that for obvious reasons I was the victim/survivor... but "times they are a changing" and all martial artists need to understand that. I feel certain that in today's anti-self-defense climate, given similar circumstances, I would be treated differently by a politically motivated DA. It has even been a topic for discussion at home... should a situation arise as before, having both myself and wife martial arts trained and both carrying, given the differences in our relative sizes, she would fair far better both in the media and in court than I would. Even if we took the exact same action for the exact same reasons. That's just a fact. The other thing that many, many folks don't realize is that there are a large number of men, smaller in stature, who feeling confident in the truth of your adage, will find a fight to pick or even create the situation. Simply because, for them, it is a win-win scenerio. They'll either be the hero for beating the big guy or the poor victim who gets the woman's sympathy. For anyone who thinks that big guys can't, won't or don't use VSD... in all the times that someone decided to pick a fight with me, it's rarely come to blows in all these decades... And those times, I felt no choice... out of options.

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 24, 2000).]

RA Miller · Post by **RA Miller** » Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:42 am

Man, I think the post on the other thread was supposed to go here.

Rory

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Tue Aug 29, 2000 1:26 pm

No Problem Rory

Original Post by RA Miller in the Stature, Intimidation and VSD thread

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
This is going to be real obvious and a lot of it will be repeats of the above.
Just as not all victims are the same, neither are all attackers or all situations.

In a blitz attack, VSD is useless. If the fight is hard, fight now and fight hard...unless strategy dictates a different response. Remember meta kihon? The predator is in a relationship. Prey fights or runs or screams. What if the prey had a seizure? Or fell limp, eyes open and staring?

In a woof, the motivation is dominance- any show of submission feeds the behavior. Verbal counter aggression puts the threat in the "put up or shut up" zone. The longer he prolongs it, the more visible his failure will be to witnesses, the greater loss of face. Because there are witnesses, he stands to lose even more face, win or lose. See why this worked in the other examples? But without witnesses, the same threat, feeling his manhood threatened would almost certainly "redeem" himself by violence and humiliation. Attackers motivation and the situation are critical here.

The predators who use a charming verbal approach to get close are IMO the most dangerous. De Becker described that better in the "Gift of Fear" than I ever could. VSD involves being harsh and firm.

I'd also like to draw a line between a submissive posture and a placating posture. From a smaller person, the palms out, hands up stance is placating and it will extend the interaction. Each second that the conversation continues will be taken by some as a "win". When their confidence builds, they will act. The biggest danger is that _you_ may believe it's working and being taken completely by surprise.

I have heard officers say "I thought I had him talked down. I though it was gonna be okay." They'd just placated him until he took it as weakness and got brave.

Submission is a complete and total defeat- "I'll do anything you want, just don't hurt me." It is, if you can keep your presence of mind, one of the best tactical positions to launch an assassination from. (I don't think 'fighting' should be taught in self-defense. I focus on awareness, assault dynamics, strategy, acting and close range assassination techniques.)

The biggest danger with even faking submission is that you might psych yourself into the real thing and that is doom.

Last thing for the ramble- never let yourself be handcuffed, tied, rendered unconscious or killed. If anyone does this, they are removing your power to control any of your fate. Always fight.

Rory<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>By Rory

The predators who use a charming verbal approach to get close are IMO the most dangerous. De Becker described that better in the "Gift of Fear" than I ever could. VSD involves being harsh and firm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. These types of predators scare me the most being a father of a teenage daughter who just graduated from high school. We (my daughter and I) are aware of the garbage mouths that do not hide the fact that they are annoying. The charmers with alterior motives should be feared the most.
How do you know when you are involved with one though? I tell my daughter to NEVER, go off alone with anyone she has just met. I want to meet the men that she will be alone with. I want to know where they live. What color, make and model and license number of the car that they drive. How many family members that they have. Are they living at home or by themselves. This method may not always work, because anything could happen anyway even if I know all these facts. However, I feel that the more that guy knows that I KNOW about him, will greatly reduce the chances that he will try to have his way with her against her will.

Rory, I have a concern about this statement you made though:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I'd also like to draw a line between a submissive posture and a placating posture. From a smaller person, the palms out, hands up stance is placating and it will extend the interaction. Each second that the conversation continues will be taken by some as a "win". When their confidence builds, they will act. The biggest danger is that _you_ may believe it's working and being taken completely by surprise.

IMO...If one has hands up, and you are not within grabbing distance, I do not believe that it would be easy to be surprised. You should be expecting an attack at any time. If you start out having your hands up, during the verbal exchange, and then you drop them down to your side, you might be inviting that person to attack if that was the intent in the first place. It would be at that moment that I would EXPECT the attck to come. Some who have studied Martial Arts, practice defending from the arms down by the side position, but as you are bringing your arms down is the most opportunistic moment that you will be attacked. Keeping your hands up and maybe rubbing the back of one hand with the other while you try to diffuse can at least keep you prepared for an attempted lunging bear hug or grab. I do not advocate that you should stand face to face with your arms in the crane position. That is certainly inviting an attack if there is no witnesses. If there are witnesses to the altercation, they will surely remember that the intended victim, did not invite the attack, because of the body language conveyed with the hands up and palms facing forward at the outset of the confrontation.
Leaving the hands up continues to convey the STOP SIGN and should cause the perp to reconsider that the person is not going to submit.

We must also learn to recognize when the verbal diffusion attempt is breaking down (not an easy task) and then the inevitable physical attack will begin. Most of the time we can not act fast enough to get our hands up when this happens.
If there will be a blitz attack it is always better to have your arms up instead of down by your side.

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Len Testa

RA Miller · Post by **RA Miller** » Wed Aug 30, 2000 2:39 am

Len,
As far as recognizing the "Charm snakers" De Becker's advice was to think of charm as a verb. Not "This guy is charming." but "This guy is trying to charm me. What does he want?"

With the placating/supplicating, I would really like to believe that as long as my hands are up, I'm ready. If the body language and verbage are wrong, though, it will feed the attackers ego. "Look at that! She's begging! I am so powerful! I am so cool!" It may be the stimulus that gives him the courage to escalate, make him believe that he has enough control he can act with out being found out.

Only half the equation, though. What if the intended victim is thinking "Okay, he hasn't attacked, yet. I've talked about how I feel and how he feels and his mother and sister and stuff (note- this may work. Any of these subjects may also be a trigger, a festering sore and may precipitate the attack) He must be seeing me as a human being now, this is going to work out..."

In other words, you can let you mental guard down while your physical guard is still up, especially if you start to buy into your own line.

Rory

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Wed Sep 06, 2000 1:47 pm

Rory:
Sorry I have not responded to your last post in this forum. I have just returned from a week long vacation with my family.

I agree that sometimes the question, “how would you feel if I was your mother…” might backfire if the attacker was abused by his mother. This question may trigger an attack if he starts thinking about revenge against women for the abuse he might have taken as a child. This may be the reason he is seeking out women to attack. When using VSD to diffuse an attack, you must be prepared to defend yourself if your questions backfire. If the attacker is irritated by the question, you have to observe the changes in his speech, and be aware that he may attack at any time. You can never let your mental guard down, even if you are thinking that the attacker will back down. If the question does irritate the perpetrator and he does attack, you must act as quickly as possible and go into survival mode (become like an animal in the jungle). Use all your training to the full extent of your knowledge. Watch for the first sign of an attempted grab or strike, and react swiftly. If your arms are up while he is changing his attitude, a more defensive lower body stance may go undetected allowing you to be completely ready to defend.
If he does not attack but is still enraged by the question, you now have to reconsider your line of questioning. Not being professional psychiatrists, we have not the time and they have not the patience for an extensive interview. You must now avoid those types of questions.

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Len Testa

lori macleod-doyle · Post by **lori macleod-doyle** » Wed Sep 06, 2000 4:33 pm

Welcome back Len!
Hope you had a great vacation!
Did you get the camp photos I sent you? I got a new scanner and some people are having trouble opening the photos.(I'm not much of a computer geek)Let me know if they opened for you.

Lori M-D

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Wed Sep 06, 2000 8:30 pm

Hello Everyone,

I remember in one of my negotiations classes a professor (who turned out had a black belt in Tae Kwon Do) taught a technique of interrupting a violent verbal attack. He said: "when you feel that a conversation is escalating to high tones, loud and foul language, and you feel that it may turn into a physical confrontation, it helps to say loudly STOP!!! This way the other person's train of thought is interrupted for a second and he/she will have to rethink their strategy." Of course all this takes a split second to occur, but it will also buy you some time to come up with an effective reaction. The "STOP!!!" should also be followed by some kind of reasoning to help get away from a violent outcome. He described a couple of situations where he had to decide between yelling STOP and getting into a fighting stance. Both times the "stop" strategy worked (lucky for him).

Now, remember that this is a negotiation technique. When attacked out in the street the person coming at you is not a negotiator. So my question is, do you think similar tactics will work in a real life confrontation?

Regards,
Vladimir.

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Thu Sep 07, 2000 12:54 pm

Hello Vladimir,

A garbage mouthed male attacking a woman may not respond to the command STOP. He would be expecting a reply such as this. It certainly is worth a try though. The objective is the same. By making the attacker aware that you are not an easy prey, and will stand up for yourself, you are beginning a negotiation phase. You are correct in assuming that most attackers will not be willing to negotiate. One must determine whether this person will attack even though you are trying to negotiate.

Remember in all VSD situations, you must stay out of the reach of the attacker. If he continues to move toward you, the command STOP must be initiated with the arms up and the palms facing forward. Be prepared to defend as soon as your arms are up though, as a grab may be attempted, if he ignors your command.

On the other hand, a pressure point hit while using the command will work, but that means that you have either deflected a grab and counterattacked, or you initiated the attack going for one of the pressure point areas. If you feel that the negotiation will not work and the attacker does not stop his forward movement, it may be best to use force, if you are alone. If there are witnesses around though continue with VSD until he either attacks or backs down.

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Len Testa

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Thu Sep 07, 2000 2:16 pm

Hi Len,

"Remember in all VSD situations, you must stay out of the reach of the attacker. If he continues to move toward you, the command STOP must be initiated with the arms up and the palms facing forward. Be prepared to defend as soon as your arms are up though, as a grab may be attempted, if he ignors your command"

I absolutely agree with you. You should keep the safe distance at all times. Just curious, what are women's chances in court if the witnesses saw her atack first. Would that still be a simple self defence case?

Vladimir.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu Sep 07, 2000 6:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vladimir:

Just curious, what are women's chances in court if the witnesses saw her atack first. Would that still be a simple self defence case?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends... If the attacker is a man, larger than the woman, or initiated the incident by raising his voice first... her chances are pretty good. This falls under the disparate force precept.

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Wed Sep 13, 2000 5:59 am

I think if a woman uses a slap across the face to a garbage mouthed male who will not stop advancing is an attack that will be justified. This man may stop and rethink any further advances.

If the slap does not work though, you must be prepared to receive a grab or a retaliatory slap.

I have seen men and women trade slaps to the face in this type of confrontation, with the woman receiving a serious blow to the face, then the man walks away. The confronation ended, but the woman was hurt.

After the initial contact is made, (the slap by the woman) it is important to be prepared to defend against a return blow.

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Len Testa