Jury Nullification

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 9:11 pm

Panther:

Sorry this has taken so long, but I just can't seem to get that reply thing working correctly. I hit the icon, but it only gives me the last paragraph; I try to do it in word, but it won't let me paste it back in the response section. Oh well. You'll have to refer back to your post to see where I'm referring to

Regarding teachers' standards...you ask would I want the chemical plants, pharmaceutical companies, or auto makers to set their own standards. The answer is of course not. I would, however, wish to see the chemists, pharmacists, and the men on the assembly line make their own standards. They know what it takes to do their job the correct way, so why not let them be part of the process? It's the same with teachers.

As for school committee members not qualified...you bet! I don't consider a locally elected official qualified to do the job just because they won a popularity contest between the 15 or 16% of the people who even bothered to vote. How about a qualification standard for those to sit on the board? How about tests each year for them too? I bet you they'd have trouble with that.

College professors are obviously more educated and would easily bring about changes in policy and curriculum, but shouldn't they be familiar with the setting and the people they are setting policy for? I wouldn't want a doctor operating on me who hasn't seen an operating room in 25 years, would you?

So, who would be better qualified? Child accountants? I won't go in that direction. Parents? Sure, if they have kids in the system and have demonstrated a knowledge of public education and its workings. Teachers and administrators? You bet. I don't care for this "conflict of interest" charge. School committees make budgetary suggestions to town meetings or appropriation committees, it's not out of the realm to see that the teachers would know first hand what is needed to the job correctly. And as for direction of curriculum, I say again, who knows better than those of us in the classroom what is best for the students. As for the contractual concerns, that could be handled outside the auspices of the school committee.

More money comment gets tiring??? Maybe because it's true. Education is an evolving entity. It progresses which means money is needed to keep up with the changes. why is that so difficult to understand. If you don't want the schools to keep up with industry or prepare for college properly, then don't hold us accountable.

Your results of the 3 "Rs" of yesteryear vs. today is a bit dramatical if you are speaking about public schools. Results haven't changed that much from the past (congnizant of the era's differences). And where did you go to school where you had class sizes in the 35-45 range???? Plus, again times have changed. Society has changed and the discipline that was once prevalent in the schoolss (and at home) is different. School dress codes are a thing of the past as well, and that plays a big role in how these kids act.

THe point is that qualified people are opting for jobs in private industry. Nothing surprising about this at all. So, the "quality" is not entering the field as it has done in the past. As for accountability, where is anyone else held accountable to the same extent as we are? And to whom are they accountable?

Alternative school funding comes right out of the exising school budget. Money that could be spent on books, more teachers, etc. goes to sending Joe "Screw-up" to a school where he can "develop" more appropriately. Furthermore, more money goes to non-funded state mandates regarding SPED than anything else and unfortunately, most alternative schools fall under the town's SPED program. As for private schools, if they don't take in the same clientele, then we shouldn't be compared with them for test scores or anything else.

Why shouldn't schools get the latest update? That's what they'll be working on when they get out. Aren't we supposed to be preparing these kids for the world after high school? I can't explain why your school system did not accpet your gracious gift. I certainly would have! But, remember, at least in my school system, you ask for whatever you can because you never know when you'll get the chance again.

As for the teachers not able to teach the students how to use the computers...when? When do I have the time to teach my students how to cuse the syste? I have a curriculum that I'm responsible too.

Regarding teacher testing. You state a number hae not been keeping current. Oh, that was right from the Governor's office.
Talk about rhetoric. EVERY teacher I know (and there are over 100 in my building alone) takes extra courses either out of love for learning, to help them with their job, or for monetary considerations a as per their contract. This is just a political tool to make elected officials seem like they are doing someting for an uninformed public. Have you ever seen a teacher's credentials from your town? Once you have, then you can talk about the above statement with more clarity. BTW, there is no such think as tenure anymore in MASS.

Saying the public is my boss in just silly. I don't answer to them anymore than the president of the US answers to me. My boss is my building princial. Let him criticize me or pat me on the back when I deserve it. The general public will never have a good thing to say about public education while they are forced to pay for it out of thier own pockets.

And lastly, propaganda...??? Really? How many bomb threats di you experience last year? We had two in my school (two too many). How many gun threats did you have last year? We had one (one too many). We work with different clientele than everybody else does, so it's tough to equate for many people out there. It has nothing to do with emotionalized propaganda at all. Again, it's a real part of the job, and not one which people enjoy. The same can be said for the amount of fights I have to break up Too many to count, plus the potential legal ramifications that go along with it. I doubt you are in the same boat; nor others in private industry.

mike

Brat · Post by **Brat** » Mon Jul 02, 2001 4:47 pm

Originally posted by Mike Murphy:

You'd be surprised at what rookie teachers don't know about the profession. And just because these conditions have been the same for countless years, doesn't mean we have to sit back and like it.

I have to dissagree with you on that claim. I sit in class alongside Ed majors everyday who know that they arent going to make dick in the field. Most are in it for the retirement or the fact that they can have their summers off if they so choose. None I have met have delusions of gandeur.

Originally posted by Mike Murphy:

I'm sorry you chose your career based on that assumption. Perhaps you could have been the world's greatest teacher or policeman. Who knows? But I certainly don't begrudge you the choice for your chosen career and for whatever reason. :-)

I chose my career based on the goal of being financially capable to do what I want and not having to live paycheck to paycheck as my father did when he was teaching. I could have possibly been the worlds greatest teacher or policeman as you pointed out. But personally I would rather be an average network administrator at $55,000 a year than the worlds best at anything being paid $25,000. I love working on cars, but as a mechanic....well, I guess I dont need to elaborate. The problem with a lot of people is that they are seeking self actualization through their careers and they will never find it. It is only part of the equation. They spend way to much energy on the job trying to achieve a fleeting goal and end up bankrupt on life in the end. Like I said before,I work to sutain my life and basic needs and achieve personal reward in what I do AWAY FROM THE DESK which is usually much more relaxing. Yes, if you enjoy what you do then I applaud you, but you cant enjoy anything when you've got money problems. Again I am not taking shots at people in these professions, only those that are bitching about them. And if they are whining that much are they really enjoying their job?

Originally posted by Mike Murphy:

Or try to make the changes in the one's we have chosen and not run away from them because society or whomever has placed roadblocks in our way. I don't turn away from a confrontation. If everyone else faced it head on, maybe we would get someplace!

But wouldn't it just be easier to apply for a higher paying job? I have an idea. Why dont you just leave your job at work and draw a distinct line between your work and home life. You can make all the waves you want but in the end you'll get no further than the guy next to you that didn't. Hey if you get turned on by it then by all means go for it. Just seems like to much work for too little return. As my father used to say....there's always an easier way.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mikemurphy:

Sorry this has taken so long, but I just can't seem to get that reply thing working correctly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S'OK... I'm pretty good at following along.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Regarding teachers' standards...you ask would I want the chemical plants, pharmaceutical companies, or auto makers to set their own standards. The answer is of course not. I would, however, wish to see the chemists, pharmacists, and the men on the assembly line make their own standards. They know what it takes to do their job the correct way, so why not let them be part of the process? It's the same with teachers.

I have already written: "To be a part of the decision-making process. That should be the case, by all means... IMNSHO. To have the final say? No."

That goes for setting standards as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As for school committee members not qualified...you bet! I don't consider a locally elected official qualified to do the job just because they won a popularity contest between the 15 or 16% of the people who even bothered to vote.

This leads me to believe that you dislike the representative democratic form of government... They ran for office, they were duly elected, aren't the facts that 1) they are citizens who took an interest and 2) they are taxpayers who took an interest enough qualification?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

How about a qualification standard for those to sit on the board? How about tests each year for them too? I bet you they'd have trouble with that.

Their qualifications are that they are citizens and taxpayers who took an interest in this particular area AND were elected to that post of public service. They don't need qualifications as the teachers do simply because they aren't responsible for doing the teaching and interacting with the children.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

College professors are obviously more educated and would easily bring about changes in policy and curriculum, but shouldn't they be familiar with the setting and the people they are setting policy for? I wouldn't want a doctor operating on me who hasn't seen an operating room in 25 years, would you?

No, I wouldn't. But the fact is that you are comparing apples and oranges.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So, who would be better qualified? Child accountants? I won't go in that direction. Parents? Sure, if they have kids in the system and have demonstrated a knowledge of public education and its workings. Teachers and administrators? You bet. I don't care for this "conflict of interest" charge.

I didn't think you would. But the fact is that for teachers to be answerable only to other teachers and adminstrators is a blatant conflict of interest. That's why it's not allowed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

School committees make budgetary suggestions to town meetings or appropriation committees, it's not out of the realm to see that the teachers would know first hand what is needed to the job correctly. And as for direction of curriculum, I say again, who knows better than those of us in the classroom what is best for the students. As for the contractual concerns, that could be handled outside the auspices of the school committee.

As previously stated, I have no problem with teachers having input in these areas. Final Say? No Way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

More money comment gets tiring??? Maybe because it's true. Education is an evolving entity. It progresses which means money is needed to keep up with the changes. why is that so difficult to understand.

This seems condescending to me... Part of the school budget gets spent each year on upgrades, progress and evolution in the school. The reason people get tired of hearing the "more money" litany, is that there is never enough in the eyes of the teachers and their union. Even if everyone in the town were to give over 100% of their incomes, there would still be a cry of "more money" with the admonishments that if more money isn't forthcoming it somehow proves that the citizens don't care about the chiiiiildren and that without the extra money education will go to hell in a handbasket. Well, the money has been coming... more and more each year and... education has gone to hell in a handbasket!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

If you don't want the schools to keep up with industry or prepare for college properly, then don't hold us accountable.

Don't want to be held accountable, then...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Your results of the 3 "Rs" of yesteryear vs. today is a bit dramatical if you are speaking about public schools. Results haven't changed that much from the past (congnizant of the era's differences). And where did you go to school where you had class sizes in the 35-45 range????

I went to public schools. My graduating class was 185, of which over 1/3 went to college. If you re-read the thread you will find that I stated that we had classes of ~30. I also said that those class sizes were common 25-45 years ago. I stand by those numbers, but I never said that my class sizes were 35-45.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Plus, again times have changed. Society has changed and the discipline that was once prevalent in the schoolss (and at home) is different. School dress codes are a thing of the past as well, and that plays a big role in how these kids act.

The ole "times have changed"... I was wondering when we were going to get to that.

OK, times have changed... But we never had a dress code in my school from K-12 and it didn't mean we acted like a bunch of hooligans.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

THe point is that qualified people are opting for jobs in private industry. Nothing surprising about this at all. So, the "quality" is not entering the field as it has done in the past.

I believe that "Brat" has discussed this with you already.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As for accountability, where is anyone else held accountable to the same extent as we are? And to whom are they accountable?

People are held accountable in many industries. Some are held accountable to the extreme. That goes not just for private industry, but also for public sector positions as well. Many LEOs can tell you of how they are held accountable in various ways and many engineers can tell you of the ways they are supervised and held accountable. Each of them are held accountable by different "bosses" depending on their job.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Alternative school funding comes right out of the exising school budget. Money that could be spent on books, more teachers, etc. goes to sending Joe "Screw-up" to a school where he can "develop" more appropriately. Furthermore, more money goes to non-funded state mandates regarding SPED than anything else and unfortunately, most alternative schools fall under the town's SPED program.

IMNSHO, there is no "right to an education at public expense". Especially if "Joe Screw-up" is disrupting the class for others who wish to learn. In that case, "Joe Screw-up" should be given special help, but rather sent on his way so that he doesn't disrupt those who wish to learn. At some point, hopefully "Joe Screw-up" will realize how important an education is and will petition for return to class with a positive learning attitude. Otherwise, "Joe Screw-up" can be one of those people who does the jobs that we're currently employing illegal immigrants to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As for private schools, if they don't take in the same clientele, then we shouldn't be compared with them for test scores or anything else.

I understand and believe that I've already agreed/conceded to this point.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Why shouldn't schools get the latest update? That's what they'll be working on when they get out. Aren't we supposed to be preparing these kids for the world after high school?

Simply because you do not need the "latest and greatest" in order to learn the fundamentals. Companies realize that as well and actually expect to bring those with the fundamental skills and a demonstrated ability up to speed with the newest items... which very often are even newer than other companies in the same industry know about... (trade secrets and all...)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I can't explain why your school system did not accpet your gracious gift. I certainly would have! But, remember, at least in my school system, you ask for whatever you can because you never know when you'll get the chance again.

Never hurts to ask. In my case, it was actually a shame, because I went ahead and got rid of the items... then I got a call asking me for a "donation" to help the school purchase new items which in reality, though "new", weren't even as powerful as what I'd offered! I'm sure you'll be just as disappointed as they were when I said, "No." (IMNSHO, they bit off their nose to spite their face... )

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As for the teachers not able to teach the students how to use the computers...when? When do I have the time to teach my students how to cuse the syste? I have a curriculum that I'm responsible too.

I gathered that from your post... was it incorrect? Sorry... But the fact is that if teachers want all the kids to have access to computers, then why isn't that considered part of the curriculum?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Regarding teacher testing. You state a number hae not been keeping current. Oh, that was right from the Governor's office.
Talk about rhetoric. EVERY teacher I know (and there are over 100 in my building alone) takes extra courses either out of love for learning, to help them with their job, or for monetary considerations a as per their contract. This is just a political tool to make elected officials seem like they are doing someting for an uninformed public.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could be. In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised at all...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Have you ever seen a teacher's credentials from your town? Once you have, then you can talk about the above statement with more clarity. BTW, there is no such think as tenure anymore in MASS.

Thanks for the correction on tenure in Massachusetts. It does give a different perspective. However, I have seen teacher credentials for my regional school system. And I've talked with a few of the teachers as well... Some of them are, well... fine/adequate, while others are truly impressive. I know that many teachers take the extra time to keep up and learn new things. I was extremely impressed with one woman who spent her time to take an extra college level course in ASL (American Sign Language) simply because she knew that there was a possibility that a hard-of-hearing little girl might become one of her students! Most impressive. I know of other examples as well. I also know of teachers who leave ASAP after school and who spend their summers "on sabbatical" and who haven't taken anything but the bare minimum requirements for keeping up. I give praise to the former and (as long as things are going well with their students) don't mention the latter specifically.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Saying the public is my boss in just silly. I don't answer to them anymore than the president of the US answers to me. My boss is my building princial. Let him criticize me or pat me on the back when I deserve it. The general public will never have a good thing to say about public education while they are forced to pay for it out of thier own pockets.

And why do you think that is?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And lastly, propaganda...??? Really? How many bomb threats di you experience last year? We had two in my school (two too many). How many gun threats did you have last year? We had one (one too many).
...
It has nothing to do with emotionalized propaganda at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many bombs were actually found?

How many guns were actually found?

And yes, it is propaganda to say in one post that "...having to deal with bomb threats and gun-carrying youngsters every day you go to work" when we now read that it was two bomb and one gun threat... a far cry from "every day", don't you think?

As I've stated both things are felonys AND would have been widely reported... I'd guess that even the threats were reported, though perhaps not as widely.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Again, it's a real part of the job, and not one which people enjoy. The same can be said for the amount of fights I have to break up Too many to count, plus the potential legal ramifications that go along with it.

Again, if someone does something illegal, call the police and have the little bastard arrested. There have been fights in schools as long as there have been schools. It may be true that they've gotten more violent, but there are all manners of laws to address those issues and we read of suspensions and expulsions all the time for those who've been violent in school... actually, even for those who have even mentioned it... actually, for those who have jokingly made reference to violence in an assignment!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I doubt you are in the same boat; nor others in private industry.

As "Brat" points out, it's a matter of professional choice. My current chosen profession isn't being discussed. However, from previous professional employment, I would suggest that in private industry (since you were specific about targetting private industry) bouncers and security personnel both deal with some bad clientele... and I've done both jobs in the past.

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Mon Jul 02, 2001 7:59 pm

Brat:

Quote:
But wouldn't it just be easier to apply for a higher paying job?

Sure, but it wouldn't be as satisfying in the end (at least I hope). I left a career making what you did, but couldn't stand living out of a suitcase. Just because I would like to be paid what I believe I'm worth, doesn't mean I didn't go into teaching thinking I was going to make a zillion dollars.

Quote:
I have an idea. Why dont you just leave your job at work and draw a distinct line between your work and home life.

Again, if you have been reading the posts, you'd see that is a very hard thing to do for me, or many teachers. Maybe for network designers, but education is a little different in my opinion.

Quote:
You can make all the waves you want but in the end you'll get no further than the guy next to you that didn't. Hey if you get turned on by it then by all means go for it. Just seems like to much work for too little return. As my father used to say....there's always an easier way.

Well, if we all took that attitude then we'd get nowhere. Sometimes you have to fight for the "easier way."

mike

[/B][/QUOTE]

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Jul 02, 2001 8:11 pm

Since we're on the topic of teaching and learning and the "3 R's" and such... I gotta tell you what just happened to me.

I missed the cafe lunch hours here at work, so decided to go out and catch something quick to bring back. Rather than wait at one of the local sandwich shops, I pulled to the drive through of a famous fast food place. I noticed they had their little chicken pieces in 6, 9 & 12 sizes. Just wanting something to "tide me through" to supper, I told the girl on the speaker that I wanted the half-dozen chicken pieces.

Her response?
"We don't have 'half-dozen' pieces, we only have 6, 9 or 12."

I asked,
"So I can get six pieces, but I can't get a half-dozen?"

"That's right, only 6, 9 or 12."

Needless to say, I ordered "six".

As I pulled away, I wondered if she was a "Josephine Screw-up" who was sent for SPED!

<hr>

(It's really scary... I see dumb people.

)

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 02, 2001).]

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Mon Jul 02, 2001 8:58 pm

Panther,

The factor has nothing to do with liking or disliking representative democracy (and I never said it didn't have it's faults). YO asked if I consider these people qualified and I gave you omy reasons. Do you think they are qualified? A citizen who takes an interest in no basis to lead a school system where so much is at stake.
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The school committee members aren't responsible for teaching and interacting with the student population, but are responsible for how we are supposed to do that. Let them take some responsibility for that. How often have you heard of a school committee take the blame for anything? Oh, they are so quick to point a finger though.
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Apples and oranges are both fruit. It's the same thing. You want college professors to make policy on public education, then get them acquainted with the process and the environment.
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What? Teachers and administrators answerable to their own kind? Why, that would be kind of like a jury of my peers, wouldn't it?
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School buildings are usually the oldest building in towns. They NEED constant upgrading. Regulations from state and federal authorities come in every year which force upgrades. To keep acredidation, school systems have to upgrade on a variety of items. Technology, as we have discussed, evolves every 30 seconds. That costs money.

The schools get more money? A level-funded budget is not what I consider more money, or a 2-3% increase over the previous year. I personally haven't got a contractual raise that has matched the cost of living increase yet. As a matter of fact, my town has just offered us a 0% raise for next year even though the COL increase is predicted at 3.5-4.0%. That's a cut in pay. Wouln't the townspeople love to see that! So, I disagree with you wholeheartedly that money has been forthcoming and that education as a whole has gone to hell in a handbasket (already discussed).
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Yo didn't act like hooligans way back then? So, what's changed then? What is the diffence between then and now, and please don't say it's the teachers.
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Unfortunately, law states that we MUST provide schooling for Joe Screwup, so we have to deal with him and his kind on a constant basis.

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It isn't part of the curriculum (computers) because of state frameworks and MCAS pressure, as well as the other pressures a high school kid goes through forcing more money to be diverted to the 4 majors (History, Math, English, Science).
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I'm glad you have spoken with teachers within your system. As for teachers not doing anything during their summers, remember, we DON't get paid for our summers nor do we usually get reimbursed for college courses. Sometimes it can be extremely expensive.
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Just as I said, because they are paying for it AND because it doesn't give them an immediate return on their money.
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How many bombs and guns were found? Totally irrevelent! Children (and teachers)are supposed to be going to a place where they should feel safe and secure, where learning is #1 priority, NOT to a place where they wonder when the next scare will come. All it takes for many kids is ONE threat. And you still did not answer my question as to h how many you had to deal with? How can you question what we feel like without having been through it a couple of times?
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Have the little bastard arrested? How easy that sounds. Most fights are not with weapons, etc., but ordinary fights between kids. The fact is that I have to break them up. Do you have to do the same at your work? BTW, suspensions and expulsions (very rare) offer little to no deterent to many of these kids, and as I said before, we have to give them an education regardless.
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But we are talking about both because the teaching profession is held to standards and compared with private industry when it doens't work out. Until we are judged fairly, we are talking about both.
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I was wondering when bouncers would be brought in. Not even worth the conversation.

mike

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Jul 02, 2001 10:46 pm

You know, it's actually pretty amazing to me that I have agreed on so much, have spent time to understand (at least in my school system), and yet a few thoughts and observations seem to really get you upset and make us look miles apart. If anything that doesn't agree with you 1001% is going to cause so much ire, then perhaps I should go the other way and give real reasons for disagreement.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mikemurphy:

The factor has nothing to do with liking or disliking representative democracy (and I never said it didn't have it's faults). YO asked if I consider these people qualified and I gave you omy reasons. Do you think they are qualified? A citizen who takes an interest in no basis to lead a school system where so much is at stake.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. They are qualified. Just as qualified as any teacher to have input into this area.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The school committee members aren't responsible for teaching and interacting with the student population, but are responsible for how we are supposed to do that. Let them take some responsibility for that. How often have you heard of a school committee take the blame for anything? Oh, they are so quick to point a finger though.

You really need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder. Remember, I said that teachers, parents and the school committee should all have input. And it's just like any other job, the boss rarely takes the blame for the $hit that can flow down-hill.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Apples and oranges are both fruit. It's the same thing. You want college professors to make policy on public education, then get them acquainted with the process and the environment.

NO. It's not the same thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What? Teachers and administrators answerable to their own kind? Why, that would be kind of like a jury of my peers, wouldn't it?

No, more like the fox guarding the hen-house.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

School buildings are usually the oldest building in towns. They NEED constant upgrading. Regulations from state and federal authorities come in every year which force upgrades. To keep acredidation, school systems have to upgrade on a variety of items. Technology, as we have discussed, evolves every 30 seconds. That costs money.

In my school region, the schools are the newest buildings in town... and you know what? The teachers still asked us to build a new building "because otherwise we'll have to put more than 25 kids some classes."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The schools get more money? A level-funded budget is not what I consider more money, or a 2-3% increase over the previous year. I personally haven't got a contractual raise that has matched the cost of living increase yet. As a matter of fact, my town has just offered us a 0% raise for next year even though the COL increase is predicted at 3.5-4.0%. That's a cut in pay. Wouln't the townspeople love to see that! So, I disagree with you wholeheartedly that money has been forthcoming and that education as a whole has gone to hell in a handbasket (already discussed).

I agree with your math, but your analysis, which I'm sure is valid for your situation, isn't valid in my school system. Regardless, I've already said that I thought teachers were grossly underpaid and deserved to be paid as professionals. Since I don't have the power to change that and neither do you, how about this solution: Abolish public schools. Let each family keep the money that is being taken from them to pay for public schools and use it as they see fit. Perhaps that will be to contract with private teachers for their children, perhaps it will be to home-school their children, perhaps it will be to teach their children a trade, perhaps it will be used to blow cocaine up momma's nose... I don't care. Abolish the public school indoctrination centers and then you can go and privately contract with your services as a teacher to various families.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Yo didn't act like hooligans way back then? So, what's changed then? What is the diffence between then and now, and please don't say it's the teachers.

Why can't I say it's the teachers? Not that I would necessarily, but why are they to be held "blameless"? There are many factors IMNSHO... some of which you'd probable agree with and some which you wouldn't. If you really want, I'll detail them all out.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Unfortunately, law states that we MUST provide schooling for Joe Screwup, so we have to deal with him and his kind on a constant basis.

I know that's true, but I don't agree with it. Schools would be much better if we tossed the trash out.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

It isn't part of the curriculum (computers) because of state frameworks and MCAS pressure, as well as the other pressures a high school kid goes through forcing more money to be diverted to the 4 majors (History, Math, English, Science).

What's wrong with history, math, english and science? That's where the emphasis should be anyway. I've already conceded my disapproval of the MCAS, but I must tell you that in discussions with one of our local teachers, she stated that she didn't mind them so much and that she'd actually found some marginal kids who she thought were better educated in certain areas... so in her opinion, they had their use, even if she didn't particularly care for them either.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I'm glad you have spoken with teachers within your system. As for teachers not doing anything during their summers, remember, we DON't get paid for our summers nor do we usually get reimbursed for college courses. Sometimes it can be extremely expensive.

Personally, I think that continuing ed for teachers should be a paid benefit. However, you get paid for the time you work... if you don't work during the summer, you don't get paid for the summer, but I know of school systems which give teachers the choice of either getting paid all of their salary during the school year OR taking it over 12 months... maybe your system isn't like that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Just as I said, because they are paying for it AND because it doesn't give them an immediate return on their money.

Since this was referring to the public paying for public education and their lack of appreciation... The public, in general, does appreciate public teachers. There are a couple of things to consider. 1) the money well isn't bottomless, 2) people in good school systems tend to appreciate their teachers more, 3) yes, they are paying for it, yet you still don't acknowledge them as your boss.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

How many bombs and guns were found? Totally irrevelent!

Not at all... You mischaracterized... I called you on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Children (and teachers)are supposed to be going to a place where they should feel safe and secure, where learning is #1 priority, NOT to a place where they wonder when the next scare will come.

There aren't that many incidents. Overall, there aren't even that many threats. We just happen to get deluged with the latest one, ad nauseum for days, weeks, or months until the next thing that can be dramatized out of proportion. Schools today are not as "unsafe" as the hyperbole and propaganda have made them out to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

All it takes for many kids is ONE threat.

And what? They can't learn? They become distraught? What? There were threats when I was a kid as well... they were dealt with. Similarly, threats are taken seriously today (sometimes overblown, out of proportion) and dealt with.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

And you still did not answer my question as to h how many you had to deal with?

This year. None.

In a previous job, multiple bomb threats, pulled fire alarms almost weekly, and two actual "gun at work" incidents. They were dealt with.

However, this is truly a case of "irrelevance", since we are discussing public school systems, not my recent employment.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

How can you question what we feel like without having been through it a couple of times?

You don't know what I've ever faced... your assumptions are showing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Have the little bastard arrested? How easy that sounds.

Because it is easy! Call the police and press charges! Simple.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Most fights are not with weapons, etc., but ordinary fights between kids. The fact is that I have to break them up.

Oh, wait... you mean, just like we used to have fist-fights and brawls when I was a kid in school? Like the ones that teachers routinely had to break up 25, 35, 45 years ago as well? Hmmmm... Yeah, I guess calling the police is a little much for the standard school yard spat. I made the mistake of taking your "bomb and gun-toting kids with weapons" literally again. Sorry... Guess it really isn't such a big issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Do you have to do the same at your work?

This is truly irrelevant. We're discussing public schools, not my current employment. Yet, I will again state that I have had to deal with hostile and threatening work environments before... even in the high-tech field.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

BTW, suspensions and expulsions (very rare) offer little to no deterent to many of these kids, and as I said before, we have to give them an education regardless.

And like I said, if there is a "Joe or Josephine Screw-up" who is a threat to others or disruptive in class, then you should be able to toss their butt out permanently... no more "free" public education, let the parents contract for the services and/or let mr./ms. "screw-up" go get a job.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

But we are talking about both because the teaching profession is held to standards and compared with private industry when it doens't work out. Until we are judged fairly, we are talking about both.

I'm not judging you against private industry. I'm simply looking at results and costs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I was wondering when bouncers would be brought in. Not even worth the conversation.

You have this real tendency to just dismiss out of hand anything that you don't like...

Can't wait to see what your reply is to my suggestion that we abolish public schools in favor of private, voluntary education.

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 6:02 am

Panther,

Please don't take this as an insult as I know you mean well and are very well informed, but you know very little about the inside of a high school in the year 2001.

I'll bite with your disagreements:

If you consider someone who may know nothing about public schools qualified to run the schools just because they were elected to the position, then you deserve everything you get in your town.
_____________________________________________

You are so correct about $hit rolling downhill in any profession.
_____________________________________________

I'm waiting for you to tell me where my doctor analogy is "apples and oranges?"
_____________________________________________

Once again, your school system must be the vanguard to education in the state. I wish we had new buildings. But, as I stated before about class size is still true. Lower class sizes equals better learning environment and class management. Perhaps your system goofed in predicting the size of the buildings they would need?
_____________________________________________

Abolish public schools? Ok, let's see where that leads. You would have to take much of those savings and put them into places such as welfare, public safety, etc. because you would have a lot of kids on the street. Be realistic here. Once again we are at a hypocritical point. The same people who don't want to spend the money, would never stand to see the system broke up because ultimately it would cost them more in other costs. It's a hypothetical situation that will never be. The closest thing we have at privatizing schools are Charter shools and the jury is still out.
_____________________________________________
Oh, I'm dying to hear what you consider the differences are in education.
_____________________________________________

Reread my post, I never said anything was wrong with the 4 majors, only that computer classes suffer because they are placed in the backseat to the 4.
_____________________________________________

What does it matter how a teacher gets paid. The fact remains that we get paid for the days we work only which doesn't include summers.
_____________________________________________

The general public does not appreciate the educational field or the wouldn't criticize at every chance. The minority is very vocal which may make it seem like they do, but in reality is in the condition of school systems today (your's excluded of course).

As for the money, just give us enough to do our jobs appropriately. And no, I still don't consider them my boss. Let me ask you a question. Do you consider a stock holder in your company your boss? _____________________________________________

I fail to see where I mischaracterized anything.
_____________________________________________

As for your comments about threats, see my beginning comment.
_____________________________________________

"Distraught," "Can't learn?" YES!!!!
These kind of distractions can keep a school in limbo for days. Do you think these kids are robots and can just turn on or off their emotions about what is happening? No offense, but you have a lot to learn about kids if you think these things (even without the supposed media hype you think they all get) just go away and it's down to business again, because they DON'T.

And comparing your's or my distractions with those of today is hardly viable. How could your experiences possibly compare?
_____________________________________________

Again we differ in what we consider relevent. I feel that since we are being compared then what we (both of us) go through is relevent.
_____________________________________________

Assumption are showing? If you are not going to answer the question, then all I have is an assumption. But now that you have answered it, how did you adults feel about the bomb and gun threats?
_____________________________________________

"Call the police and press charges." I have to ask this question because of your response. When is the last time you have been to juvinile court? I have been in court "pressing charges" against kids who have brought in knives, mace, and bullets (couldn't find the gun) and the judges have let them all go with warnings, suspended sentences, etc. NOT ONE was found guilty, AND all were back in school within a week of the trial date. It's not that easy.
BTW, the comment on breaking up fights, was just a let-you-know that my job is that much more dangerous with that going on, and just because teachers have been breaking up fights for 40 years, doesn't make it a pleasant way to spend a morning or afternoon in school.
_____________________________________________

Whether you personally are judging me against private industry or not makes no difference as the general public (my boss remember) is.

_____________________________________________
I dismiss what I consider a real tangent to the debate and what would probably serve better on a different thread. But we do have the record to the most posts. We have to feel proud about that :-)

mike

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 6:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mikemurphy:

Please don't take this as an insult as I know you mean well and are very well informed, but you know very little about the inside of a high school in the year 2001.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could be true... not insulted at all, just gathering information and tossing out thoughts.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

If you consider someone who may know nothing about public schools qualified to run the schools just because they were elected to the position, then you deserve everything you get in your town.

In my school system, they do an "OK" job. But I must admit that when I see/hear/read some of the things the school board comes up with I wonder how they graduated!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

You are so correct about $hit rolling downhill in any profession.

And besides that... it stinks.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I'm waiting for you to tell me where my doctor analogy is "apples and oranges?"

Because in the case of the college professor on the school board, who hasn't seen the inside of a public school in 25 years, a bad decision on that professor's part can be mitigated by the other school board members and can be corrected if it is found to be in error. In the case of the doctor who hasn't been in an operating room for 25 years, that bad decision can't be mitigated because the patient may very well be dead or permanently injured. That's the error in the comparison.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Once again, your school system must be the vanguard to education in the state. I wish we had new buildings. But, as I stated before about class size is still true. Lower class sizes equals better learning environment and class management. Perhaps your system goofed in predicting the size of the buildings they would need?

Vanguard? Perhaps, it's in the top 10 in the state for both SATs and MCAS scores... now you could narrow down where I live.

You're quite correct that they mis-predicted building size needs. Actually, what they did when the buildings were built was project out for the estimated student population with a little extra for a "bubble" of baby-boomer kids. What actually happened, is that the area is so popular that it has grown by leaps and bounds. That wasn't taken into account as much as it should have been. Big deal... some class sizes are over 25... It's being dealt with now and there are a bunch of different factions in the region fighting over what the solution should be.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Abolish public schools? Ok, let's see where that leads. You would have to take much of those savings and put them into places such as welfare, public safety, etc. because you would have a lot of kids on the street. Be realistic here. Once again we are at a hypocritical point. The same people who don't want to spend the money, would never stand to see the system broke up because ultimately it would cost them more in other costs. It's a hypothetical situation that will never be. The closest thing we have at privatizing schools are Charter shools and the jury is still out.

Welfare?!?! Who said anything about giving them welfare? Let 'em rot in hades!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Oh, I'm dying to hear what you consider the differences are in education.

I'll start a new thread shortly. OK?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Reread my post, I never said anything was wrong with the 4 majors, only that computer classes suffer because they are placed in the backseat to the 4.

And they should be placed behind the other four!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What does it matter how a teacher gets paid. The fact remains that we get paid for the days we work only which doesn't include summers.

And you then have a choice. Either take your summers off and know that you need to budget your money to last over that time or get other employment to help you financially during that time. Like I said, I think that teachers need to be paid like professionals and I'd love to see all the tax money that is getting flushed to build "sports stadiums" (gawd, what an effin' waste of money that should be used for a truly good purpose) go to teachers salaries and schools.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Tue Jul 03, 2001 6:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The general public does not appreciate the educational field or the wouldn't criticize at every chance. The minority is very vocal which may make it seem like they do, but in reality is in the condition of school systems today (your's excluded of course).

Even in my school system there are monetary constraints. As I said, the money well isn't bottomless. I have to agree that most people don't appreciate their local teachers, however, it is obvious that people in general feel that it's important, otherwise why would it be such an important factor in where people relocate to and why would it be such an important factor in property values.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As for the money, just give us enough to do our jobs appropriately. And no, I still don't consider them my boss. Let me ask you a question. Do you consider a stock holder in your company your boss?

Absolutely they are! They might not give me day-to-day directions, but they are ultimately the boss. The stock holders tell the board of directors who tell the CEO who tells the managers who tell me what's to be done. Just as the citizens tell the school board who tell the superintendent who tells the principals who tell the teachers what's to be done. Same difference. Except the school laundry gets aired out in public too damn much.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I fail to see where I mischaracterized anything.

Previously: "...having to deal with bomb threats and gun-carrying youngsters every day you go to work." (my emphasis added.)

I called that propaganda (and this time rephrased it to being a "mischaracterization")... and I stick by that assessment.

You gave us the truth when you later told us that you had had two bomb threats and one gun threat through-out the school year. As already pointed out, that's a far cry from "bomb threats and gun-carrying youngsters every day..."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As for your comments about threats, see my beginning comment.

OK...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Distraught," "Can't learn?" YES!!!!
These kind of distractions can keep a school in limbo for days. Do you think these kids are robots and can just turn on or off their emotions about what is happening? No offense, but you have a lot to learn about kids if you think these things (even without the supposed media hype you think they all get) just go away and it's down to business again, because they DON'T.

And comparing your's or my distractions with those of today is hardly viable. How could your experiences possibly compare?

Again we differ in what we consider relevent. I feel that since we are being compared then what we (both of us) go through is relevent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine. I give...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Assumption are showing? If you are not going to answer the question, then all I have is an assumption. But now that you have answered it, how did you adults feel about the bomb and gun threats?

We dealt with them and got on with our work and our lives.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Call the police and press charges." I have to ask this question because of your response. When is the last time you have been to juvinile court? I have been in court "pressing charges" against kids who have brought in knives, mace, and bullets (couldn't find the gun) and the judges have let them all go with warnings, suspended sentences, etc. NOT ONE was found guilty, AND all were back in school within a week of the trial date. It's not that easy.
BTW, the comment on breaking up fights, was just a let-you-know that my job is that much more dangerous with that going on, and just because teachers have been breaking up fights for 40 years, doesn't make it a pleasant way to spend a morning or afternoon in school.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK... there's a real problem with the (juvenile) justice system. I see your dilemma/point.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Whether you personally are judging me against private industry or not makes no difference as the general public (my boss remember) is.

I'm not and I don't think it's fair or accurate (completely) for others to either.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I dismiss what I consider a real tangent to the debate and what would probably serve better on a different thread. But we do have the record to the most posts. We have to feel proud about that :-)

mike <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've learned quite a bit. I like these types of threads where thoughts and ideas can be discussed and argued and debated. Its only been a long thread because we've been civil and understanding of the other side. I wish that more threads where folks had some (ours was pretty minor, IMNSHO) differences in opinion could be as informative of the views. Good discussion and I sincerely hope that your school system gets the help you want it to... as long as you stop teaching that "democracy" crap.

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Thu Jul 05, 2001 12:44 am

you da man!

mike