I happened upon this newspaper article a few minutes ago, and thought I read something about Political Correctness here and how it kills free speech.
I agree with the author of the article that PC speech is a bad thing. Here's the link, and enjoy:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/4/4/121115.shtml
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
(A couple of thoughts on reading the article. These are thoughts about the article, I'm not attacking anyone in particular. The only thing that's directed at a specific person is my question in the second part, and that's a general question, I just thought Mr. Moulton could answer it since he posted the topic.)
First, there's no documentation of the alleged family tree of PC. There's a suggestion that the college students etc who push for PC are controlled, in the end, by communists and whatnot. But while they're leftist, well, it's a bit farfetched to ascribe all of modern PC to the efforts of WW2 propangandists and their progeny.
Second, the article makes the excellent point that people who will be punished if they speak up lose their right to free speech. In Cuba, you risk a lot speaking up, so you don't speak up. My followup question for Mr. Moulton is this:
Given that a gay or lesbian person who speaks out in a political way (or even puts a photo of a loved one on a desk like everyone else) risks, in many or most places of the USA, 1) loss of employment (military is a good example) 2) loss of housing (in areas without protections people can be evicted for their sexual orientation or denied housing) 3) physical violence (which reached a peak in direct proportion to the level of back and forth political rhetoric during the Ballot Measure 9 and Amendment 2 debates out in oregon and colorado) 4) discrimination in courts whether involving custody of children or people who are plaintiffs, defendants, or witnesses 5) some other stuff, how can these individuals truly be free unless the conservatives who want to protect their free speech like everyone else's get together and legislate meaningful civil rights protections for them?
Third ,PC comes in many forms. An analogy would be regulations. (Sure, certain people propose putting regulations on how many mouse parts or grams of arsenic go in our children's food... but did you know the NAZIS ALSO BELIEVED IN REGULATIONS!!!??) One can get carried away. PC in this article was for the most part political censorship enforced by violent dictatorships. PC as it's comonly used in the USA means a bunch of overpriviledged college kids and sometimes eager to pelase legislators who get all up in arms and shout angrily if their favored speech isn't used. Big difference. And what many conservatives label "PC" is really just anyone sticking up for people the conservatives don't like:
"You asked me to stop making slurs? Oh, that's thought control. That's censorship."
No it's not, it's just a request to be nice. And instead of being nice one often gets the ludicrous reverse PC of the right, which is the labeling of any attempt to improve the treatment of some minority as "PC" without any thought as to what that means. It ends up being a slur and a way to make people hastily back away from their often reasonable requests for fear of being painted some kind of liberal activist. By calling the person making a request a name, it shuts down the discussion over whether that claim is legitimate.
And what gets based off as principled honesty or forthrightness or free speech is actually formulaic prejudice about the group in question. You can often tell by the tone, as I pointed out in a thread that attacked "blacks" as being universally prone to claiming victim status and suggested that "asians" as a whole had transcended the same. If you don't have a problem with blacks, then why are you complaining about the blacks instead of people who paint themselves as victims instead of getting off their butts? Because the victimhood claimers include a lot of whites and exclude a lot of blacks.
I'm not for the silliness of PC. But I'm also not for slandering every effort to improve our society "PC" if and when they don't suit a conservative ideology. That's reverse PC, and its as real as reverse discrimination.
First, there's no documentation of the alleged family tree of PC. There's a suggestion that the college students etc who push for PC are controlled, in the end, by communists and whatnot. But while they're leftist, well, it's a bit farfetched to ascribe all of modern PC to the efforts of WW2 propangandists and their progeny.
Second, the article makes the excellent point that people who will be punished if they speak up lose their right to free speech. In Cuba, you risk a lot speaking up, so you don't speak up. My followup question for Mr. Moulton is this:
Given that a gay or lesbian person who speaks out in a political way (or even puts a photo of a loved one on a desk like everyone else) risks, in many or most places of the USA, 1) loss of employment (military is a good example) 2) loss of housing (in areas without protections people can be evicted for their sexual orientation or denied housing) 3) physical violence (which reached a peak in direct proportion to the level of back and forth political rhetoric during the Ballot Measure 9 and Amendment 2 debates out in oregon and colorado) 4) discrimination in courts whether involving custody of children or people who are plaintiffs, defendants, or witnesses 5) some other stuff, how can these individuals truly be free unless the conservatives who want to protect their free speech like everyone else's get together and legislate meaningful civil rights protections for them?
Third ,PC comes in many forms. An analogy would be regulations. (Sure, certain people propose putting regulations on how many mouse parts or grams of arsenic go in our children's food... but did you know the NAZIS ALSO BELIEVED IN REGULATIONS!!!??) One can get carried away. PC in this article was for the most part political censorship enforced by violent dictatorships. PC as it's comonly used in the USA means a bunch of overpriviledged college kids and sometimes eager to pelase legislators who get all up in arms and shout angrily if their favored speech isn't used. Big difference. And what many conservatives label "PC" is really just anyone sticking up for people the conservatives don't like:
"You asked me to stop making slurs? Oh, that's thought control. That's censorship."
No it's not, it's just a request to be nice. And instead of being nice one often gets the ludicrous reverse PC of the right, which is the labeling of any attempt to improve the treatment of some minority as "PC" without any thought as to what that means. It ends up being a slur and a way to make people hastily back away from their often reasonable requests for fear of being painted some kind of liberal activist. By calling the person making a request a name, it shuts down the discussion over whether that claim is legitimate.
And what gets based off as principled honesty or forthrightness or free speech is actually formulaic prejudice about the group in question. You can often tell by the tone, as I pointed out in a thread that attacked "blacks" as being universally prone to claiming victim status and suggested that "asians" as a whole had transcended the same. If you don't have a problem with blacks, then why are you complaining about the blacks instead of people who paint themselves as victims instead of getting off their butts? Because the victimhood claimers include a lot of whites and exclude a lot of blacks.
I'm not for the silliness of PC. But I'm also not for slandering every effort to improve our society "PC" if and when they don't suit a conservative ideology. That's reverse PC, and its as real as reverse discrimination.
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Allen M.
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
In many, if not most, of your posts, Ian, you’re always bringing up gays and lesbians, and it seems to me that you take it upon yourself to defend them. Are you gay?Second, the article makes the excellent point that people who will be punished if they speak up lose their right to free speech. In Cuba, you risk a lot speaking up, so you don't speak up. My followup question for Mr. Moulton is this:
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Although this is answered in a recent post of mine, I'll reply here with a question, much as you did:
Why do you ask?
Why do you ask?
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Be careful... I'm still around and still watching...
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Allen M.
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Panther, my good friend, I wrote my question in sincere innocence with absolutely no malice or hurtfullness implied or applied. It is definitely not my intention to flame this post. I have no intention whatsoever of accosting anyone or any group, and am being careful to pick my words so to help keep them from being construed in a negative fashion, and from being taken in the wrong way.
Ian, My question was a simple question requesting a simple yes or no answer. Could you, or someone else, direct me to to that link so that I can read that post. There are many things on these forums that I do not have the time to read.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Ian, My question was a simple question requesting a simple yes or no answer. Could you, or someone else, direct me to to that link so that I can read that post. There are many things on these forums that I do not have the time to read.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
david
Speaking for me, No. But different men and women, who happen to be gay/lesbian, have had very positive impact on different aspects and points in my life. I dont' rush to confront every homophobic remard just as I don't rush to confront every racist remark. I don't have the energy of my youth. But those who would take away their rights or threaten their well-being, just because of the sexual orientation, I would stand to defend as I would my own family.you’re always bringing up gays and lesbians, and it seems to me that you take it upon yourself to defend them. Are you gay?
david
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Allen M.
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Hello David.
I don't have the energy of my youth, either David. "Too bad youth is wasted on the young."
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
I don't have the energy of my youth, either David. "Too bad youth is wasted on the young."
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Allen-sensei,
I know you... I know Ian... heck, I even know David!
and I know that you're civil and non-malicious. I also know that we (myself included) can get, ahem... "passionate" in our debates. My comment was directed at everyone on the thread (you and Ian, at the time) and meant only to make everyone stop and think about where they were, were going and wanted to go in this tough issue.
Take care...
I know you... I know Ian... heck, I even know David!
and I know that you're civil and non-malicious. I also know that we (myself included) can get, ahem... "passionate" in our debates. My comment was directed at everyone on the thread (you and Ian, at the time) and meant only to make everyone stop and think about where they were, were going and wanted to go in this tough issue.Take care...
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Along the lines of P/C is a tendency to use euphemisms to deny and distort reality. This is used on all sides of the political spectrum as a propaganda tool. It is good to be aware of the power of language.
It is used to scapegoat people with lables as well as silence and dismiss ideas of the opposition. It is also used to make the disgusting more palatable, the idiotic seem reasonable, the good look evil ad infinitum. Remember the Contra "Freedom Fighters"?
Sociology and social engineering is a relatively new science. The use of P/C certainly is not limited to any one group. It a is very powerful thing when it goes unrecognized and is applied with a measured dose of anger or offence taken. In the extreme one sees righteous watch dogs of the "New order" being more intolerant than the so called "Oppressor" ever dreamt of. Today it is common to see people ostracized and their opinions immediately and steorytipically invalidated because they vary from the P/C version ascribed to by people with an agenda to push. We've learned to take offence to descriptive words that were never meant to be insult. People often walk on egg shells as others bully their agenda to reality. After all most people seek harmony, avoid confrontation, and have a desire to please if they can. It is important we recognize this use of language. As Mr. Moulton's link pointed out, and this little chat demonstrates, it is a scienifically developed tool for leveraging control over people and public opinion.
So like Elvis Costello sang, "What's so funny bout peace love and understanding"! Well as for me, we can have it once I get my way!!!HA HA Honestly,recognizing the brutal truth does less harm in the end, but finding it ain't getting any easier!
Jesus said it best when he said love each other as I have loved you. P/C is often a weapon.
[This message has been edited by ecalavia (edited April 16, 2002).]
It is used to scapegoat people with lables as well as silence and dismiss ideas of the opposition. It is also used to make the disgusting more palatable, the idiotic seem reasonable, the good look evil ad infinitum. Remember the Contra "Freedom Fighters"?
Sociology and social engineering is a relatively new science. The use of P/C certainly is not limited to any one group. It a is very powerful thing when it goes unrecognized and is applied with a measured dose of anger or offence taken. In the extreme one sees righteous watch dogs of the "New order" being more intolerant than the so called "Oppressor" ever dreamt of. Today it is common to see people ostracized and their opinions immediately and steorytipically invalidated because they vary from the P/C version ascribed to by people with an agenda to push. We've learned to take offence to descriptive words that were never meant to be insult. People often walk on egg shells as others bully their agenda to reality. After all most people seek harmony, avoid confrontation, and have a desire to please if they can. It is important we recognize this use of language. As Mr. Moulton's link pointed out, and this little chat demonstrates, it is a scienifically developed tool for leveraging control over people and public opinion.
So like Elvis Costello sang, "What's so funny bout peace love and understanding"! Well as for me, we can have it once I get my way!!!HA HA Honestly,recognizing the brutal truth does less harm in the end, but finding it ain't getting any easier!
Jesus said it best when he said love each other as I have loved you. P/C is often a weapon.
[This message has been edited by ecalavia (edited April 16, 2002).]
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Interesting situation for me as I believe gays and lesbians ought to be able to say who they are without the issue holding any more weight than whether they might be left handed. On the other hand, I asked a simple question and I'll hold firm.
I once went to a lecture on alcoholic and drug abusing physicians given by several alcoholic, drug abusing (and recovered) physicians. One spent 2 months in treatment away from his practice. I asked him what his patients asked about that absence and how he replied. He said they certainly did and whenever that happened, he asked them why they were curious. He said that if they wanted to know because they were concerned about whether it reflected something that could affect their care, he felt he had a responsibility to explain. But if they were just curious, or being voyeurs to his private life, he told them his private life was just that.
And the question Allen asked was far less personal than the one I asked him, and given this and without a well deserved explanation, I'm not going to delve into it.
A better question might be, why do I bring them up a lot, and the answer is, they're a perfect debate issue. I bring them up just like I bring up my article on pressure point theory. Many people have droned on about my lack of mastery of kyusho, but when I mention the article, which no one has yet to refute, silence ensues.
GLB's and the issues surroounding them invoke a lot of current debates and they also are at the center of a lot of conservative hypocrisy.... er, I mean subtle inconsistencies. For example, if the government has no business restricting powerful firearms, how did it acquire the right to police private relationships? If we ought to be tough on crime, why doesn't the right do something about the laws and practices that often negate the testimony of GBLs or make attacks on them less important and makes it difficult for them to come forward? Homophobia is also about the last politically permissible and even politically expedient prejudice, and the last major prejudice (that I know of) written into law in this lanf of the free. GLB issues are just juicy political issues in general.
I once went to a lecture on alcoholic and drug abusing physicians given by several alcoholic, drug abusing (and recovered) physicians. One spent 2 months in treatment away from his practice. I asked him what his patients asked about that absence and how he replied. He said they certainly did and whenever that happened, he asked them why they were curious. He said that if they wanted to know because they were concerned about whether it reflected something that could affect their care, he felt he had a responsibility to explain. But if they were just curious, or being voyeurs to his private life, he told them his private life was just that.
And the question Allen asked was far less personal than the one I asked him, and given this and without a well deserved explanation, I'm not going to delve into it.
A better question might be, why do I bring them up a lot, and the answer is, they're a perfect debate issue. I bring them up just like I bring up my article on pressure point theory. Many people have droned on about my lack of mastery of kyusho, but when I mention the article, which no one has yet to refute, silence ensues.
GLB's and the issues surroounding them invoke a lot of current debates and they also are at the center of a lot of conservative hypocrisy.... er, I mean subtle inconsistencies. For example, if the government has no business restricting powerful firearms, how did it acquire the right to police private relationships? If we ought to be tough on crime, why doesn't the right do something about the laws and practices that often negate the testimony of GBLs or make attacks on them less important and makes it difficult for them to come forward? Homophobia is also about the last politically permissible and even politically expedient prejudice, and the last major prejudice (that I know of) written into law in this lanf of the free. GLB issues are just juicy political issues in general.
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Oh, and thank you, David.
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
I knew the son of a wealthy family. He was provided with cars and money. He too was a drug addict. First an alkie then dope then both I guess. I knew him from high school.
Who could blame him? He was retired at 17 and never knew the satisfaction of earning anything or the value of money. Clueless, one could call him a victim of the pop culture of the 70's. But enough excuses were ready made for him.
He hid his families support so the state gave him welfare. He enjoyed every rehab program the state could provide. He was sent to Worcester State. He was placed in the nursing programThanks P/C, he was "cured" and could pursue whatever field he chose. All for free under Mass Rehab. He lived with a woman who was on SSI and got loads of back pain meds which mixed nicely with his methadone. As I said he enjoyed rehab. and made good connections. After finishing LPN with all "A's" he was placed into RN program. After all it was P/C to ignore his history and there are many others who can't keep thier hands off the jelly beans. I guess one is legitimized if one has enough company. Eventually he made it into the hospital for practical experience where he was caught stealing pain medications from cancer patients on his watch. He had been under suspicion but lied in a most expert pathological way and was very smart about the system. He once bragged to me, "This is a rich country and I intend to ****** the great American teat until the milk runs dry". Eventually he was caught dozing while a patient was ringing the call button complaining of pain and not getting the meds. The chart showed he had. This guy had pin wheels for eyes and a blood spot on his upper rump. They kicked him out of nursing and put him into liberal arts.
P/C works well for some.
At least a doctor doesn't have to steal it. Yet at my relatively low paying job we get to piss on demand randomly. One bad test and fired, no recourse no second chance. The reason is concern for public safety. On the bright side I could go to another company do the same work and they can't ask what caused my departure from the first one!
Cool, thanks P/C.
I knew an intern who was an addict, the realtive of a friend. He was half out of his mind at my friends house on God knows what. I was introduced to him as DR. I said DR!!! DR.BS! Let me tell you something, if I were in the hospital and you came near me with a knife I'd get a bigger one and stab you back you SOB> well needless to say, that P/C Faux pax aided my speedy departure from the festivities! I never saw him again and hope he is dead before he hurts someone. Woops, there I go again...
Oh, the other guy didn't loose out. He had never intended to really work as a nurse. He made loads of money growing and selling pot. He returned to rehab. was eventually forced to finnish college since he had too many credits but not in all the required fields. He Quit. Then, he was given a house in another state. He terrorized the Mennonite nieghbors who unfortunately for him were related to the chief of police. He eventually got set up by some local parolee "friends". Two counts of attempted murder and of course cultivation with intent. Got 14 years served 7 got out a wreck full of psycho drugs and comitted suicide with an O/D. Seems his pals cut the dope with Durabond! HA Ha He turned his heart and brain to plaster, an improvement![Woops there I go..]So it seems justice was eventually served in spite of P/C.
There is such a thing as right and wrong, good and evil.
Sometimes the good are too naieve and allow the evil hurt the vulnerable through misplaced good intentions. Too often P/C is used as a tool for evil. People need to be aware of it' many uses.
Who could blame him? He was retired at 17 and never knew the satisfaction of earning anything or the value of money. Clueless, one could call him a victim of the pop culture of the 70's. But enough excuses were ready made for him.
He hid his families support so the state gave him welfare. He enjoyed every rehab program the state could provide. He was sent to Worcester State. He was placed in the nursing programThanks P/C, he was "cured" and could pursue whatever field he chose. All for free under Mass Rehab. He lived with a woman who was on SSI and got loads of back pain meds which mixed nicely with his methadone. As I said he enjoyed rehab. and made good connections. After finishing LPN with all "A's" he was placed into RN program. After all it was P/C to ignore his history and there are many others who can't keep thier hands off the jelly beans. I guess one is legitimized if one has enough company. Eventually he made it into the hospital for practical experience where he was caught stealing pain medications from cancer patients on his watch. He had been under suspicion but lied in a most expert pathological way and was very smart about the system. He once bragged to me, "This is a rich country and I intend to ****** the great American teat until the milk runs dry". Eventually he was caught dozing while a patient was ringing the call button complaining of pain and not getting the meds. The chart showed he had. This guy had pin wheels for eyes and a blood spot on his upper rump. They kicked him out of nursing and put him into liberal arts.
P/C works well for some.
At least a doctor doesn't have to steal it. Yet at my relatively low paying job we get to piss on demand randomly. One bad test and fired, no recourse no second chance. The reason is concern for public safety. On the bright side I could go to another company do the same work and they can't ask what caused my departure from the first one!
Cool, thanks P/C.
I knew an intern who was an addict, the realtive of a friend. He was half out of his mind at my friends house on God knows what. I was introduced to him as DR. I said DR!!! DR.BS! Let me tell you something, if I were in the hospital and you came near me with a knife I'd get a bigger one and stab you back you SOB> well needless to say, that P/C Faux pax aided my speedy departure from the festivities! I never saw him again and hope he is dead before he hurts someone. Woops, there I go again...
Oh, the other guy didn't loose out. He had never intended to really work as a nurse. He made loads of money growing and selling pot. He returned to rehab. was eventually forced to finnish college since he had too many credits but not in all the required fields. He Quit. Then, he was given a house in another state. He terrorized the Mennonite nieghbors who unfortunately for him were related to the chief of police. He eventually got set up by some local parolee "friends". Two counts of attempted murder and of course cultivation with intent. Got 14 years served 7 got out a wreck full of psycho drugs and comitted suicide with an O/D. Seems his pals cut the dope with Durabond! HA Ha He turned his heart and brain to plaster, an improvement![Woops there I go..]So it seems justice was eventually served in spite of P/C.
There is such a thing as right and wrong, good and evil.
Sometimes the good are too naieve and allow the evil hurt the vulnerable through misplaced good intentions. Too often P/C is used as a tool for evil. People need to be aware of it' many uses.
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Troll Man: Thanks for reviewing my rant, you are right of course. I am happy for the factual and serious comment. I guess there is a sweet mix in all things. For all the good P/C and privacy laws may do in cases like Ian's, there is another side. For every great good there is an evil. We now see a poorly written attempt to constrain pedofilia materials rejected by the SC. It sure isn't easy to write effective and fair laws. Seems the court thought it too broadly written.
As to parenting I agree somewhat. However at some point we become adults. As you may have guessed, the addicts father took the rap for "Loving him too much" and "making" him irresponsible. So even in death he was denied the right and dignity to be responsilbe for his own actions. Brutally reduced to an infantile level of responsibility,excused, not fully a man. His father yet more empowered, even if in a negative way. It's something kind hearted people unintentionally cause harm with all too often through out the society and world. All said and done I would like to grant him his life as a product of hie own free will, however puny and self indulgent, in order to validate him as a free thinking human being.
I blame the social workers a little. They knew him yet dreampt of making a gentleman from an idiot like in an old Three Stooges episode. Perhaps they were too simpatatico? The low and middle level bureaucrats wield lots of power it seems.
Actually, I fear the stripping away of privacy laws will leave people "weeded out", uninsured, and unemployed with all the Genetic info soon available. Money does set the rules.
Tis quite a tale though,no?
As to parenting I agree somewhat. However at some point we become adults. As you may have guessed, the addicts father took the rap for "Loving him too much" and "making" him irresponsible. So even in death he was denied the right and dignity to be responsilbe for his own actions. Brutally reduced to an infantile level of responsibility,excused, not fully a man. His father yet more empowered, even if in a negative way. It's something kind hearted people unintentionally cause harm with all too often through out the society and world. All said and done I would like to grant him his life as a product of hie own free will, however puny and self indulgent, in order to validate him as a free thinking human being.
I blame the social workers a little. They knew him yet dreampt of making a gentleman from an idiot like in an old Three Stooges episode. Perhaps they were too simpatatico? The low and middle level bureaucrats wield lots of power it seems.
Actually, I fear the stripping away of privacy laws will leave people "weeded out", uninsured, and unemployed with all the Genetic info soon available. Money does set the rules.
Tis quite a tale though,no?
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Troll Under the Bridge
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Yakima WA USA
Where PC originated and How it Kills Free Speech
Indeed it is. Personal resposibilty is not being taught, and I believe that is what was offered is the original thread indirectly.
Someone indicate that you can not change people. I believe Ian countered that you can make them more aware of the consequenses of their "free speech".
I feel that PC has arisen as a counter to our cultures inability to delay gratification. High impulsivity added to low ego strength making people more volitile. PC attempts, I think, were well intended to get folks to reflect before they speak.
How many people read post rebutting them as they go rather than delevolping an understanding of what the other is saying?
People do it in ftf conversations continuosly. (generalizing)
When we listen to each other, strange things happen.......
Someone indicate that you can not change people. I believe Ian countered that you can make them more aware of the consequenses of their "free speech".
I feel that PC has arisen as a counter to our cultures inability to delay gratification. High impulsivity added to low ego strength making people more volitile. PC attempts, I think, were well intended to get folks to reflect before they speak.
How many people read post rebutting them as they go rather than delevolping an understanding of what the other is saying?
People do it in ftf conversations continuosly. (generalizing)
When we listen to each other, strange things happen.......
