Translation Please!

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gmattson
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Translation Please!

Post by gmattson »

Awhile back, someone posted a clip of a Russian art where a rather portly gentleman moved his student around as though on a leash. Most of the movements involved minimum if any touch. Some people on an Ikido forum seem to feel this was a legitimate demonstration of self-defense and after receiving a somewhat mild post of questioning disbelief, one supporter wrote the following:
A few months ago, someone else asked nearly the exact same question, about the same video on our Russian Martial art forum. Though in much less polite way. At the time I chose to give an explanation of the movement. So I figured, it'd be easy enough for me to play some cut and paste, write a little new stuff and post it here. I actually ended up writing a good bit more detail here, and added a few thoughts as well. So here it goes. In the clip the effect you see is due to a subtle application of physics. What is happening can be very hard to "see" if you don't have any experience with this type of movement or theory. The primary principle used is the storing and release of enrgy. First potential kinetic energy is stored, then a catalyst is provided which allows it to mainfest into actual movement. In this caase that energy can be seen as movement.

The attacker is first twisted to his right. This stores potential kinetic energy in his body via the elastic nature of the body's soft tissue.

The "defender" then imparts a force in to the arm by flicking the forearm with a small rotational strike, in the opposite direction. this provides the trigger for the potential kinetic energy to release and manifest itself, causing the attackers body to whip back to his left. During this process the defenders elbow is moved on a vector towards his own centerline. This causes him to move his center back slightly, moving his weight over his heels, to his rear triangulation point, and he consequently falls.

The "belly point" (was it really helpful to define it as a "big" belly?) is part of advancing and lowering the defender does as the opponent is being thrown. This is a calculated attempt (which pays off) at entering at an angle and into a space that makes it psychologically uncomfortable for the opponent to attempt to "fight" forward for his balance. This is essentially the inverse application of the Shidare Yanagi Ryu Aiki principle of "the void". Just as a person will tend to follow and into and possibly fall into a void that you psycho-physiologically create. He will equally have the tendency to keep from moving into the opposite of a void... substance. By walking forward, the defender is likely triggering a focal length adjustment reflex. the opponent due to innate reflexes will try to keep his enemy in proper focus. By moving forward at the same speed the opponent is falling, the opponent has the desire to keep his set focal length the same. attempting to "stop the fall" will cause a needed adjustment of focal length, which the body perceives as an opening to threat. Therefore the body allows the fall to continue, by lessening the "righting reflex".

Further taking advantage of the inherent perception of threat, the defender moves his arm out to the side. This results in the opponent tracking the motion for his own perceived defense. As a result he moves the angle of his head, which further destroys his structure and intensifies the falling effect.

The opponent is lying face down at the end of the move. That he was "knocked out" is an assumption that you made. I do not make the same assumption.

I think in the quest to be better martial artists, we really need to learn to be detectives. asking about the clip is a good beginning to that. Though I suggest eventually trying to cultivate the overwhelming desire to figure out all the possibilities on your own. As you get better at it, your skill will increase. This is martial science we practice, and IMO, it really should be treated like science (fun science). Look at anything you see without making assumptions. Formulate hypothesis and test them.

There is always something to learn. Even if a practitioner is "faking" his fall... its still physics that make him fall down. Whether he applies the throw to himself or another does it to him, he still essentially thrown. With good science and good investigative skills, one can learn a great deal even from those that are indeed faking it. All you need do is reverse engineer the dive they took and find legitimate ways of making those actions take place.

Arthur
The clip can be viewed here http://hamiltonsystema.bserv.com/mikhailsergeimed.wmv in case anyone is interested in seeing it.

Hey Bill (or anyone), do you understand what Arthur is talking about?
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I'll go out on a limb...

Post by Panther »

All of the "psycho-babble" about redirecting the uke's perception and stored kinetic energy might be more believable if some of these "no touch" throws had actually had the tori's motions done in the visual sight of the uke! I can't agree with the explanation when there are obvious times in the film where the tori is behind the uke, doesn't tough the uke, moves his (tori's) arm, and yet uke goes flying into yet another roll/fall! (literally!) I seriously doubt this would survive a series of double-blind tests as done by others on this forum in the past... Also, with uke on the floor, sitting up, tori puts his hand straight out toward uke and uke falls over! If I was on the floor sitting up and someone put their hand straight out to me, I'd think they were offering to help me up and grab hold!

Just my humble opinion... maybe physics and psychology are different in Russia... but I don't think so... ;)
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Post by 2Green »

Arthur's last paragraph gives away the game, and sums it all up.

In fairness however, someone might observe one of our kumites or Bunkais and make the same observation; that the attacker is participating in his own demise.
So I could buy the fact that the video is a DEMONSTRATION of what a trained person in this style could theoretically do, and the attacker is participating in this demo.
Otherwise it's a pretty fancy explanation for someone rolling around on the floor.
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Post by TSDguy »

The first time this came up, I think we all pretty much agreed the clip was ridiculous until someone from the organization came on the thread and claimed it was a demonstration of break falling or even evasive movement (still a stretch) not of not of throwing. I'll buy into that. The above explanation would have been amusing if it weren't schiztophrenically illogical. 8O
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

That's bizarre...

When we first were musing over this, I was commenting on how the uke was doing all the work. Then someone came on board and said basically that I was right. It wasn't supposed to be a demonstration of the tori's "no touch" throwing skills. Rather, it was supposed to be a demonstration of the uke's ability to avoid being hit or hurt. When viewed that way, the tape makes perfect sense.

The explanation given above is a waste of bandwidth. Occam's Razor applies here - the simplest explanation is the most plausible.

2Green is right in that the last paragraph does make some sense.
Even if a practitioner is "faking" his fall... its still physics that make him fall down. Whether he applies the throw to himself or another does it to him, he still essentially thrown.
Advanced ukemi is all about immunizing yourself against the effects of throws. So rather than wait for an attacker to throw you, you take the initiative and throw yourself. The advantage really is on the part of the uke - and not the tori - as the uke remains unhurt and ready to continue his assault.

To imply that the tori here is doing anything to the uke other than attempting an attack that can never be executed is basically creating something from nothing.

- Bill
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Post by gmattson »

Although I was and continue to be impressed with the gymnasitic prowess of the uke, I don't buy into to argument that it is an evasive drill. Although a visitor did say this, others on the Akido forum are stating just the opposite.

At the very least they should agree as to the purpose of the exercise.
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Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

Potential kinetic energy? The physics I studied had potential energy and kinetic energy. I suppose potential energy could potentially lead to kinetic energy...or something like that.

Maybe it's qi?
ted

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

GEM

The need for clarity of purpose here is paramount. Your point is well taken.

Let's put it this way... If it is a stellar example of ukemi, then I applaud the display. IF anyone claims that the uke's path in this video is anything other than avoidance (or maybe just psychological manipulation), then I say that's a bunch of hooey.

Ted

You and I know each other, so we can get down to business here.

We pretty much see energy in kinetic form here. All we need to do is consider the source. Potential energy is energy stored but not released. The guy is moving, so he is displaying kinetic energy. There are transient periods of potential energy display whenever a guy is twisted or turned in a particular way. But (IMNSHO) the bulk of the potential energy is what exists in a chemical form as ATP in the uke's muscles.

Qi? What the heck is that? If this is supposed to be some example of no-touch qi (ki, chi, prana, the force) delivery, then I give it a big, wet, raspberry.

Sorry...I only deal with real world phenomena. If a body is moving, there is a reason. The only thing visible here is an uke who quite obviously is burning his own calories to cause the movement we see. Just pull the special glasses off, ignore the guy with the big belly, and watch. The uke is contracting his own muscles to cause what we see. There is no need to consider another energy source.

Am I wrong? Does anyone here see evidence that there's an outside energy source hurling this guy around?

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Post by M. Keller »

Given that force exerted on a body in the absence of contact is defined by
F= G*M1*M2/(radius^2),
the crowd of spectators has a greater influence on the uke's body than does the fellow who's leading him.

So, if he was that sensitive to no-touch forces, he should theoretically be stuck in the center of the mat.

:lol:

-Mike
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Post by gmattson »

Now that is a translation I can understand Mike! Thanks.
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Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

[QUOTE"I"]

Maybe it's qi?

[/QUOTE]

:lol: an attempt at humor
ted

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

OK...sorry...I'm slow today.

I should have known. :oops:

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike

Maybe M2 is in possesion of anti-matter.

Or maybe G = Gee I'd better make sensei look good...

Or maybe M1 is trying to take advantage of the square of R because M2 has poor oral hygiene...

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Translation please

Post by chef »

Maybe the uke has some 'issues' and has a phobia about being touched.
Maybe it is advance 'chi' at work.
Or maybe it is a case of bulshi_-ryu. (Hope I don't get in trouble on that one)
Very strange!

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Tai chi, bagua et al

Post by Sochin »

I've not seen this clip yet but I've seen two Russian vids and I'm sure this clip is from one of them. I'm having trouble with downloads...

I practice Bagua Zhang and I got to meet and play with a reformed hard stylist who now taught internal style applications against hard styles.

I found that his success at light touch throws were due to two things, an exquisit (intuitive) feeling and blending of MY balance point such that he knew when I was at the edge of losing my balance better than I could feel it myself. At this precarious edge (where I still felt strongly balanced but wasn't) he would use a light touch to tip me over...

and, a grasp of body mechanics such that he could anticipate / and / or feel thru my structure how I would response with other weapons so as to be ready to deflect them into the light touch unbalancing that he had set up with the other hand. Whooops! I'm on the floor again!

Both he and his senior students could pull this off against full power lunge puches in the dojo setting ie on command, tho he did often say that me and my students were the hardest to work with because we were so firmly settled into our center point and in balance when we hit, and we refused to do half power punches just for the demos sake (unless asked to slow it down for an instructional purpose).

Now, as to non-touch throws, I'll share what happened to me. His senor student said he would show me something and to drive in / step in with a strong punch to his face. So I complied with a strong right hand trying to break his nose trusting he would manage it. I saw him slip to my right just outside of my elbow and, at the same time, his right hand came up inside my punch, palm open wide towards my face as his face came along my arm and actually seemed to me to be rushing into a smash into the side of my head (ie, his 'face' moved towards me noticeably).

To avoid getting hit in the face and to take the smirk off his face, I drove off my left foot to throw my right shoulder into his chest (which looked to be moving right towards my shoulder) and so knock him over. Then I was in a forward roll and getting up, wondering what had happened.

He knew that as a trained martial artist that my response could be predicted so when I started my shoulder smash, he was already turning his waist to 'open the door', which let me by without touching him and my drive which was supposed to have been stopped by hitting him body to body never stopped and took me over.

At first he called this "superior psychology" and I agreed with that as a suitable definition of how he "knocked me over without touching me." Later, I believe, he would attribute this type of thing to chi and more mystical yin yang theory. This I can't confirm...I remember what happened, how I felt and what I thought.

They called this stuff 'balance stealing' and 'ghost work.'

So, in sum:
yes, sensitivity to another's balance and movement can be developed so you can control him better than he can control himself

and yes, subtlety can defeat strength

But,
I have no idea how these things would hold up under the adrenal dump as they are skill based

nor would they be available in a self defense repetoire except after years of practice, or even years and years.

imho.

The Russian stuff looked very similar to what I experienced but taken even farther until it looked like a collusion between attacker and defendant.
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