(don't?) push hands
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(don't?) push hands
Just read the thread about the aggressive/ defensive drill, sounds interesting. Since we're already talking mindets, I'm looking for different insights on push hands. My partners have been great and explained the purpose, but I keep hearing '..good...softer...good...softer...' Now I need to integrate the feedback into my movements and am wondering if you can offer a mindset that helps you reach optimal strength & direction?
Some push hands is done very "wet noodle" with no pressure at all.
Yes, you want to gentle out and become "quieter' in your defensive movement but only to follow your partner's energy better and to decieve him as to what you are up to. The less he can feel you, the less he is able to respond correctly. The pont is to learn to feel someone's energy by connecting so if you are too loud, you give it away.
But that all said: many stop there and never get back to the idea of why you want to feel his energy at all instead of just bashing him on the head (Br'er Bear Fu)...if your partner never attacks you with intent, you will never get to 'feel' the energy of a real attack whcih is a lot different from a soft attack. And think about a gentle push with no pressure as a fight finisher, hmmm? doesn't work, right?
Many soft stylists have no idea of the power they will face from a trained karate-ka and many karate-ka have no idea of how elusive and upsetting a soft style answer can be to their killer sunday punch.
Just my cross training .02 cents,
Yes, you want to gentle out and become "quieter' in your defensive movement but only to follow your partner's energy better and to decieve him as to what you are up to. The less he can feel you, the less he is able to respond correctly. The pont is to learn to feel someone's energy by connecting so if you are too loud, you give it away.
But that all said: many stop there and never get back to the idea of why you want to feel his energy at all instead of just bashing him on the head (Br'er Bear Fu)...if your partner never attacks you with intent, you will never get to 'feel' the energy of a real attack whcih is a lot different from a soft attack. And think about a gentle push with no pressure as a fight finisher, hmmm? doesn't work, right?
Many soft stylists have no idea of the power they will face from a trained karate-ka and many karate-ka have no idea of how elusive and upsetting a soft style answer can be to their killer sunday punch.
Just my cross training .02 cents,
Re: (don't?) push hands
This sneaky angle 
is very helpful Ted, grazie. Push hands intrigues me because it seems like a valuable concept for someone my size. Given the laws of physics, larger people (which is pretty much everyone older than 13) have certain advantages. Therefore, I'm especially interested in redirecting others' energies.
is very helpful Ted, grazie. Push hands intrigues me because it seems like a valuable concept for someone my size. Given the laws of physics, larger people (which is pretty much everyone older than 13) have certain advantages. Therefore, I'm especially interested in redirecting others' energies.-
jorvik
I like what Chen Man Ching said " invest in loss"...and it can mean a few things, put yourself in the weakest position....or alternatively do the opposite of what you want to learn, where your opponent is coming from......in the case of " pushing hands" that can be lip service...."Soft" can mean " weak" or " ineffectual".
Try being as hard and strong as you can....if your partner cannot use his "soft" to defeat you then he doesn't know what he's talking about and then again once you have used your hard try to put yourself in the weakest position.....for two reasons, so you know how to avoid it yourself, and so you know when your opponent is in it 
Try being as hard and strong as you can....if your partner cannot use his "soft" to defeat you then he doesn't know what he's talking about
and then again once you have used your hard try to put yourself in the weakest position.....for two reasons, so you know how to avoid it yourself, and so you know when your opponent is in it 
Re: (don't?) push hands
What kind of push hands are you doing? Is it Tai Chi push hands?CJG wrote:Just read the thread about the aggressive/ defensive drill, sounds interesting. Since we're already talking mindets, I'm looking for different insights on push hands. My partners have been great and explained the purpose, but I keep hearing '..good...softer...good...softer...' Now I need to integrate the feedback into my movements and am wondering if you can offer a mindset that helps you reach optimal strength & direction?
We use a kind of spring energy. The force to be used: Just enough - to maintain your structure - as more energy is encountered you equalize the force. If the force becomes to great you help it slide away, run around it or ****** it in. Ultimately the actions of the partner must dictate his or her undoing - flow with the intention until it is disolved and then execute. Many applications of 'gentle energy' can be used with other more destructive kinds of energy as well.
I could be more specific in sticking hands vs. push hands.My opponent contracts - I expand. My opponent expands - I contract.
HTH
Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Think of two people on either side of a door that can swing both forward and backward. Both Uke (receiver) and Tori (giver) are exerting equal force on opposite sides of the same edge of the door. This is "floating".
At the moment that Tori pushes too hard on the door Uke releases his pressure on the door allowing it to open. This is "sinking"
Tori - who is now pushing against no resistance - comes forward through the door. Uke is perfectly positioned (i.e. off-line) to help Tori forward - taking advantage of his off-balance. This is "swallowing".
At the moment that Tori reverses his energy in the opposite direction to try and regain his balance, Uke is right there to help shove (strike) Tori back out the door. This is "spitting".
So, if you are floating, the pressure must be equal. If you press too hard you set yourself up to be sunk! so you never press harder than your balance can take or further out over your toes or heels. if as you retreat he tries a spitting, you can (if you are in balance and feeling him, not just doing your own thing), swallow his force and pull him over.
To do any of these things too roughly gives away your intent and allows him greater feedback about your intent allowing him to counterattack. BUT, roughness also interferes with the feel of his energy or his physicality so your interpretation of his move fails.
At the moment that Tori pushes too hard on the door Uke releases his pressure on the door allowing it to open. This is "sinking"
Tori - who is now pushing against no resistance - comes forward through the door. Uke is perfectly positioned (i.e. off-line) to help Tori forward - taking advantage of his off-balance. This is "swallowing".
At the moment that Tori reverses his energy in the opposite direction to try and regain his balance, Uke is right there to help shove (strike) Tori back out the door. This is "spitting".
So, if you are floating, the pressure must be equal. If you press too hard you set yourself up to be sunk! so you never press harder than your balance can take or further out over your toes or heels. if as you retreat he tries a spitting, you can (if you are in balance and feeling him, not just doing your own thing), swallow his force and pull him over.
To do any of these things too roughly gives away your intent and allows him greater feedback about your intent allowing him to counterattack. BUT, roughness also interferes with the feel of his energy or his physicality so your interpretation of his move fails.
Shaolin, I didn't realize there was more than one variety of push hands, I'll ask tomorrow which we've done. As I hoped, you've all given me slightly different insightful takes on the same concept. Excellent! 
At first I was concerned I asked an unswerable question, but that's the beauty of the forum, access to lots of wisdom...
At first I was concerned I asked an unswerable question, but that's the beauty of the forum, access to lots of wisdom...It seems as though the similarities of Uechi "sticky hands"; Wing Chun chi sao and Tai Chi push hands have similarities. You can also find some of these principles in Aikido and Judo as well, though not as clustered in such as specific exercise.
The principles of rootedness, sinking your center, attaining that fine balance point of not too much or too little, but as goldilocks says "just right". Sensing the uke's direction, anticipating it and neutralizing it. It sometimes helps to close your eyes in chi sao or sticky hands so you are not guided by your eyes, but more of your senses.
These exercises when done properly teach body mechanics: sinking center, relaxed but reflexes primed, shoulder placement, elbows in, all to train the body how to most efficiently transfer energy by "swallowing" or "spitting".
It also reflects a counter mindset.
When your sensei or sifu is telling you softer, they are probably telling you to relax, put your body on autopilot and meet force with a softness that ties it up.
At first we are stiff and hard in our effort at push hands or one of the others. We try to muscle our uke, who manipulates us around the dojo like greased lightening.
The amplification of the inner sanchin hara power plus the combining or your uke's energy can get you the "strength" you're hoping for without a show of external force.
JohnC
The principles of rootedness, sinking your center, attaining that fine balance point of not too much or too little, but as goldilocks says "just right". Sensing the uke's direction, anticipating it and neutralizing it. It sometimes helps to close your eyes in chi sao or sticky hands so you are not guided by your eyes, but more of your senses.
These exercises when done properly teach body mechanics: sinking center, relaxed but reflexes primed, shoulder placement, elbows in, all to train the body how to most efficiently transfer energy by "swallowing" or "spitting".
It also reflects a counter mindset.
When your sensei or sifu is telling you softer, they are probably telling you to relax, put your body on autopilot and meet force with a softness that ties it up.
At first we are stiff and hard in our effort at push hands or one of the others. We try to muscle our uke, who manipulates us around the dojo like greased lightening.
The amplification of the inner sanchin hara power plus the combining or your uke's energy can get you the "strength" you're hoping for without a show of external force.
JohnC
Which does everyone do here?JohnC wrote: It seems as though the similarities of Uechi "sticky hands"; Wing Chun chi sao and Tai Chi push hands have similarities.
I thought the Uechi version was devoid of changes such as 'swallowing/spitting' and involved only the pressing action shown in the video clip with Bill and GEM. Are there variations not shown in the clip that some use or is it a different exercise altogether?
Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Interesting. Let's see some videos!CJG wrote:Paul Giella explained that we practice the tai chi push hands at the Hut. I should check out the videos with GEM...
I cannot offer much insight into Tai Chi Push Hands as my experience involves primarily Wing Chun Chi Sao or 'sticking hands,' which uses almost entirely different concepts.
Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
I think he's trying to get a flank. No problem just pivot and reface, he has to move further around outside.CJG wrote:why?The Bronze Dago wrote:I like to move around in a circle as i'm doing it
Which exercise are you talking about Tony?
Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
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