Disaster Planning -- are you ready?
Moderator: Available
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Guest
In response to Dana's question about what we do and do not prepare for, the answer is, we have a toilet plunger and a spare tire because the odds of events requiring them are high enough, and the costs of preparing for them low enough, that we find it worthwhile.
On the other hand, it seems that the odds of a nuclear weapon exploding overhead, and the costs of moving to nebraska or other safe distance are high enough, that people don't want to move to avoid it.
Without good data on the likelihood of some attacks, it's hard to know what to do (smallpox). However the cost is low enough for some generally useful itnerventions (extra food on hand) that it would be hard to argue against that.
What is the "major" chinese buildup in the Carribean, and why can't someone drive a purchased soviet weapon into NYC?
On the other hand, it seems that the odds of a nuclear weapon exploding overhead, and the costs of moving to nebraska or other safe distance are high enough, that people don't want to move to avoid it.
Without good data on the likelihood of some attacks, it's hard to know what to do (smallpox). However the cost is low enough for some generally useful itnerventions (extra food on hand) that it would be hard to argue against that.
What is the "major" chinese buildup in the Carribean, and why can't someone drive a purchased soviet weapon into NYC?
--Ian
Hello Van
Best way to deal with an early warning of a nuclear warhead headed for Boston…
I don’t think there’d be time for that because you only have a few minutes at best after a launch.
Well, Tony, we have something in the area. When it goes just take Iodine pills [Put that in your kit too, Dana].
Dana,
So you stock up on groceries and water and things to keep clean and warm with – and survive intact. The hordes roaming the streets in the aftermath will want to take what you have, including your body, so get a few rifles, such as pictured by Van, and plenty of ammunition because the word of the day may be to have plenty of lead to spray
Ian
Best way to deal with an early warning of a nuclear warhead headed for Boston…
I don’t think there’d be time for that because you only have a few minutes at best after a launch.
Well, Tony, we have something in the area. When it goes just take Iodine pills [Put that in your kit too, Dana].
Dana,
So you stock up on groceries and water and things to keep clean and warm with – and survive intact. The hordes roaming the streets in the aftermath will want to take what you have, including your body, so get a few rifles, such as pictured by Van, and plenty of ammunition because the word of the day may be to have plenty of lead to spray
Ian
Susplendid driver's license?? Not for sale in the US?? I give up! What’s the riddle??What is the "major" chinese buildup in the Carribean, and why can't someone drive a purchased soviet weapon into NYC?
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
I own a sig sauer p-230. I have +p hollow point with center spikes as carry rounds. Rich Castanet can tell you whether or not I can hit something with it. I'd probably go for a shotgun if I bought a rifle - probably short barrel, probably pump action and probably the lightest one I can find that isn't going to burn itself to pieces if I have to pump several rounds through it. Because I'd be carrying the hottest knockdown round I can hold down.
{I'm open to suggestions on this - so if anybody has a favorite please PM it to me, otherwise this thread will end up being about guns and that's not the point.}
If I wait for good hard data on statistical possibilities before I make my disaster plans then I might as well not make disaster plans. If a small suitcase nuke explodes down near the Mall (where the White House, Captiol Building, etc are all located) then I'll not only be alive, I'm on the north side of DC and less than 3 miles from my house. My goal at that point is to go north and west away from prevailing winds so that I don't survive the blast in order to die by radiation poisoning.
For me it's a lot like the FAST defense training. A rehearsal to lay down possible patterns of action so that my brain doesn't freeze up like an icy-pop when bad things start to happen. Instead, I'm hoping that my brain will have several pre-rehearsed plans to choose from and hopefully pick the best one given the current disaster situation.
I refuse to be fatalistic about disaster planning. If fatalism was a good idea then the Red Cross would have a brochure on it. Disasters accelerate the darwinian natural selection process. And I am not going to sit by and let the statistics determine what my chances of survival are.
Now if a 10 megaton bomb is launched for DC then I'll open a bottle of wine. But anything from 1-10 kilo tons and I have a chance. And I'm going to grab that chance by throat and hold on like a pitbull.
Obviously if you live in Boston, or Indianapolis, or Denver, or whereever your disaster planning needs should be appropriate for your environment. So take a look at mine...
1. Two airplanes have come out of the sky with intention to hit and kill. One failed, one succeeded.
2. We've had one biological weapons attack -- anthrax. Granted it was through the mail, but it still killed folks and it got so much exposure that lots of people imagined lots of ways to use those kinds of weapons here. It is only a matter of time before somene decides to do it again.
3. Lots of really important stuff and symbolically important stuff is here. White house, Capitol Building, monuments, pentagon, military bases, elected leaderhsip....a target rich environment if you will.
4. I live here.
What was that saying during the Nazi pogoms....?
If they kill everyone but me it will be a disaster.
If they kill me it will be a complete disaster.
Smile and laugh. Shake your heads and roll your eyes. Call me crazy. But my hope is that after something really nasty happens in DC I'll be able to call everyone and tell them I'm safe.
{I'm open to suggestions on this - so if anybody has a favorite please PM it to me, otherwise this thread will end up being about guns and that's not the point.}
If I wait for good hard data on statistical possibilities before I make my disaster plans then I might as well not make disaster plans. If a small suitcase nuke explodes down near the Mall (where the White House, Captiol Building, etc are all located) then I'll not only be alive, I'm on the north side of DC and less than 3 miles from my house. My goal at that point is to go north and west away from prevailing winds so that I don't survive the blast in order to die by radiation poisoning.
For me it's a lot like the FAST defense training. A rehearsal to lay down possible patterns of action so that my brain doesn't freeze up like an icy-pop when bad things start to happen. Instead, I'm hoping that my brain will have several pre-rehearsed plans to choose from and hopefully pick the best one given the current disaster situation.
I refuse to be fatalistic about disaster planning. If fatalism was a good idea then the Red Cross would have a brochure on it. Disasters accelerate the darwinian natural selection process. And I am not going to sit by and let the statistics determine what my chances of survival are.
Now if a 10 megaton bomb is launched for DC then I'll open a bottle of wine. But anything from 1-10 kilo tons and I have a chance. And I'm going to grab that chance by throat and hold on like a pitbull.
Obviously if you live in Boston, or Indianapolis, or Denver, or whereever your disaster planning needs should be appropriate for your environment. So take a look at mine...
1. Two airplanes have come out of the sky with intention to hit and kill. One failed, one succeeded.
2. We've had one biological weapons attack -- anthrax. Granted it was through the mail, but it still killed folks and it got so much exposure that lots of people imagined lots of ways to use those kinds of weapons here. It is only a matter of time before somene decides to do it again.
3. Lots of really important stuff and symbolically important stuff is here. White house, Capitol Building, monuments, pentagon, military bases, elected leaderhsip....a target rich environment if you will.
4. I live here.
What was that saying during the Nazi pogoms....?
If they kill everyone but me it will be a disaster.
If they kill me it will be a complete disaster.
Smile and laugh. Shake your heads and roll your eyes. Call me crazy. But my hope is that after something really nasty happens in DC I'll be able to call everyone and tell them I'm safe.
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Guest
Terrorists would have a difficult time smuggling a warhead that size into the country. Sure, they could place it in a large box, but this box would have to be lined with "X" deep in led and would weigh significantly higher then other boxes it's size. I think the 10 and 100KT figures are good models to work with for nuclear terrorism.
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
To Dana: Yes, you know how to handle your firearm.
Regarding the shotgun, lightly loaded self defense rounds in '00' are really better than the highest power loads. A 3" magnum 12 gauge shotgun shell would be difficult to handle if you needed to quickly get another round off into a second attacker or even a second shot into the first attacker.
I keep Federal SD 12 gauge shells on hand for close-in usage, and would load them into a shotgun with a cylindrical bore and a full capacity magazine. I can get one in the chamber and seven in the magazine. There is one less .30 ball (I think 8 instead of 9) and a little less powder in the shell, making it very manageable but still a knock down round.
Rich
Regarding the shotgun, lightly loaded self defense rounds in '00' are really better than the highest power loads. A 3" magnum 12 gauge shotgun shell would be difficult to handle if you needed to quickly get another round off into a second attacker or even a second shot into the first attacker.
I keep Federal SD 12 gauge shells on hand for close-in usage, and would load them into a shotgun with a cylindrical bore and a full capacity magazine. I can get one in the chamber and seven in the magazine. There is one less .30 ball (I think 8 instead of 9) and a little less powder in the shell, making it very manageable but still a knock down round.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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jorvik
I can't see that if there is some catastrophe, nuclear or biological that the good neighbours I have will all turn into killers and rapists. Or that killers and rapists will stand any better chance of survival than anybody else.
If terrorists set of a dirty bomb or nuclear explosive, then the government will treat it just like any other catastrophe.....such as 9/11, all the country's resources will go to help the stricken, this would similarly be the case if it were a biological weapon such as Anthrax or smallpox. I cannot see any country launching a nuclear attack against the US for fear of the retribution they would recieve.
The more likely scenario is for a terrorist campaign, much like the recent sniper incident, possibly a bombing campaign. In which case the best preperation is to think where these attacks are likely to occur and avoid them. It's debatable just where you would stand the best chance of survival out in the counryside where plagues are not likely to reach, and there are no strategic targets or in a large city, where you do have all the targets but all the resources as well.
most people seem to think that we will end up in a " Mad Max" environment if something bad happens that we will suddenly be having to hunt for our own food while fighting off human predators. I don't believe that this will happen.
What I would do is have the necessary survival stuff ready. Such as a supply of longlasting food, say rice, the means to cook them calor gas whatever, a couple of cigarette lighters to make fires, swiss army knife,small sheath knife..stuff that you can easily carry around, also things like scissors or combs....and if you want a gun, it would more likely be for hunting. so I would think a rifle.
They do say that "......Chance favours the prepared mind"
If terrorists set of a dirty bomb or nuclear explosive, then the government will treat it just like any other catastrophe.....such as 9/11, all the country's resources will go to help the stricken, this would similarly be the case if it were a biological weapon such as Anthrax or smallpox. I cannot see any country launching a nuclear attack against the US for fear of the retribution they would recieve.
The more likely scenario is for a terrorist campaign, much like the recent sniper incident, possibly a bombing campaign. In which case the best preperation is to think where these attacks are likely to occur and avoid them. It's debatable just where you would stand the best chance of survival out in the counryside where plagues are not likely to reach, and there are no strategic targets or in a large city, where you do have all the targets but all the resources as well.
most people seem to think that we will end up in a " Mad Max" environment if something bad happens that we will suddenly be having to hunt for our own food while fighting off human predators. I don't believe that this will happen.
What I would do is have the necessary survival stuff ready. Such as a supply of longlasting food, say rice, the means to cook them calor gas whatever, a couple of cigarette lighters to make fires, swiss army knife,small sheath knife..stuff that you can easily carry around, also things like scissors or combs....and if you want a gun, it would more likely be for hunting. so I would think a rifle.
They do say that "......Chance favours the prepared mind"
Certainly it would be a bad idea for china, some soviet block nation, or korea to fire off a nuke at us, (as well as a bad deal for mother nature) but I think what more people are worried about is a stray nuke getting trucked into a city--or DPRK getting just a little shade nuttier... when that bomb goes off, we won't have any warning or even know where it came from. What're we gonna do, light up the whole mideast on suspicion OBL was involved and he hasn't moved to tahiti?
I also think our neighbors would do a pretty good job after a disaster. What happened in NYC? And what is their rep??
I also think our neighbors would do a pretty good job after a disaster. What happened in NYC? And what is their rep??
--Ian
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.I can't see that if there is some catastrophe, nuclear or biological that the good neighbours I have will all turn into killers and rapists.
It only take one bad neighbor to spoil it. Panic, nerves, terror - people will do things they don't ordinarly do in extraordinary situations. Some of those things are wonderful and good - and the balance of self-serving and evil will also rise to the occasion.
As Heather mentioned to me the other day - look at the good and nice people who were caught in that fire in PA. The fun loving and good people TRAMPLED 23 PEOPLE TO DEATH trying to get out of the door. Trampled to death. Stepped on hands, legs, arms, heads, throats, chests. Why? Were they bad people? Nope. Mean people? Nope? Scared for their lives? Yep.
When chaos happens - we're all at risk. Doesn't mean we're not good people, it just means we're at risk.
Dana
Dana,
I would worry more about 'small pox', than nuclear danger.
The old soviet union has tons or if you like "tonnes" of the stuff.
Here in Canada, the military has emergency plans in place in case of an attack. I don't know all the details, but, I imagine it has something to do with martial law and keeping people off the street for a couple of weeks.
Small pox cannot survive in temperatures above 140 degrees F. (Dry your clothes in a clothes dryer, boil your water and set your hot water tank temperature on high.) Things realitively inexpensive and easy to do.
With a quarintine, small pox would be expected to burn itself out in two weeks. That much food in the closet might be handy.
Can we be prepared for everything? No.
But I do have a 30 inch handled, double strength, recurve, all rubber head plunger next to the toilet. (just in case things get messy
)
nick
I would worry more about 'small pox', than nuclear danger.
The old soviet union has tons or if you like "tonnes" of the stuff.
Here in Canada, the military has emergency plans in place in case of an attack. I don't know all the details, but, I imagine it has something to do with martial law and keeping people off the street for a couple of weeks.
Small pox cannot survive in temperatures above 140 degrees F. (Dry your clothes in a clothes dryer, boil your water and set your hot water tank temperature on high.) Things realitively inexpensive and easy to do.
With a quarintine, small pox would be expected to burn itself out in two weeks. That much food in the closet might be handy.
Can we be prepared for everything? No.
But I do have a 30 inch handled, double strength, recurve, all rubber head plunger next to the toilet. (just in case things get messy
)nick
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jorvik
I have just rented a parcel of land 90ft by 30 ft, in my country it's called an allotment 
.....the plan is to grow my own vegetables, I've already put in some potatoes, spinach,carrots and rhubarb soon I'll be planting more stuff beans etc.
This is my idea of survival planning
.........I can grow healthy organic veg, I am very concerned about the use of GM crops something good old George Bush and his lapdog Tony Blair want to push.......but in a greenhouse I should be able to produce GM free foddstuffs ( If I ever have to 
)
Coupled with that I'm rather concerned by things like the Sars virus.....really I want the confidence ( which is why some do ma's) to know that I can look after myself, and live off the land, I think a lot of folks think that you need to be " Rambo" to do that......but I think growing is more relevant.........and there are other benefits.
The allotment is very secluded and surrounded by " Druid" stones ( As in Stonehenge).....and it is a truly magical place....full of peace and tranquility.
My kids cannot get enough of it, and it is mainly them and their futures that I have in mind....but it's nice to spend some quality time together digging the land
I've been very influenced by the CAT centre
http://www.cat.org.uk/
and have spent quite a bit of time there and also http://www.permaculture.net/
.....the plan is to grow my own vegetables, I've already put in some potatoes, spinach,carrots and rhubarb soon I'll be planting more stuff beans etc.This is my idea of survival planning
.........I can grow healthy organic veg, I am very concerned about the use of GM crops something good old George Bush and his lapdog Tony Blair want to push.......but in a greenhouse I should be able to produce GM free foddstuffs ( If I ever have to )Coupled with that I'm rather concerned by things like the Sars virus.....really I want the confidence ( which is why some do ma's) to know that I can look after myself, and live off the land, I think a lot of folks think that you need to be " Rambo" to do that......but I think growing is more relevant.........and there are other benefits.
The allotment is very secluded and surrounded by " Druid" stones ( As in Stonehenge).....and it is a truly magical place....full of peace and tranquility.
My kids cannot get enough of it, and it is mainly them and their futures that I have in mind....but it's nice to spend some quality time together digging the land
I've been very influenced by the CAT centre
http://www.cat.org.uk/
and have spent quite a bit of time there and also http://www.permaculture.net/
Hello jorvik.
When I lived in Charlotte, NC in the 70s, I became friends with an ex-marine who did something similar to what you outlined
-- except he planned for, and lived for, the day our soil would be invaded by either bugs, a foreign force, or mobs of hysterical Americans.
He invited me to his house and it was build like a [1800s] calvary fortress and angled in such a way as to guard entrances. He also planned to booby trap it in the event of some sort of happening.
He had a fairly large garden [Your mentioning of one what kicked of the thoughts of NC]. It too was set up for boobytrapping. He stated if he had food or otherstaples then he would be defending them [his life, really] to keep them out of the hands of the angry rushing hordes of starving people.
Is there anyway you can plant your garden underground so it won't be noticed in case you are overrun by packs of roaming forragers and pillagers?
I plan on meeting such an emergency by breaking the seals on the only items I have put aside for a disaster of unthinkable proportions -- A quart of Crown Royal and a quart of Jack Danials. After the downing of the goods, I don't think I'm going to care much.
On higher ground I have been saved from going hungry and freezing to death in two Great New England Northeast Blizzards, each that had us holed up for almost a week (Blizzzard of '78 being one of them), and maybe that's all one can do. I learned then that hot food, a warm fire, a little alcohol, a few extra bux, and a beautiful young woman is all one really needs in most emergencies.
If a package like that was offered at the local sporting-goods store I'd get a few extras.
Other than that, there's not a heck of a lot one can do except pray.
When I lived in Charlotte, NC in the 70s, I became friends with an ex-marine who did something similar to what you outlined
-- except he planned for, and lived for, the day our soil would be invaded by either bugs, a foreign force, or mobs of hysterical Americans.
He invited me to his house and it was build like a [1800s] calvary fortress and angled in such a way as to guard entrances. He also planned to booby trap it in the event of some sort of happening.
He had a fairly large garden [Your mentioning of one what kicked of the thoughts of NC]. It too was set up for boobytrapping. He stated if he had food or otherstaples then he would be defending them [his life, really] to keep them out of the hands of the angry rushing hordes of starving people.
Is there anyway you can plant your garden underground so it won't be noticed in case you are overrun by packs of roaming forragers and pillagers?
I plan on meeting such an emergency by breaking the seals on the only items I have put aside for a disaster of unthinkable proportions -- A quart of Crown Royal and a quart of Jack Danials. After the downing of the goods, I don't think I'm going to care much.
On higher ground I have been saved from going hungry and freezing to death in two Great New England Northeast Blizzards, each that had us holed up for almost a week (Blizzzard of '78 being one of them), and maybe that's all one can do. I learned then that hot food, a warm fire, a little alcohol, a few extra bux, and a beautiful young woman is all one really needs in most emergencies.
If a package like that was offered at the local sporting-goods store I'd get a few extras.
Other than that, there's not a heck of a lot one can do except pray.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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jorvik
Hi Allen, nice to hear from you ......hope your job search is going well ( ever thought of going south, the climate might help your arthritis).
like yourself, I don't believe that you can plan for a disaster...if you could then it wouldn't be a disaster.........So that is only half of it, also at my age I'm more inclind to think of my children's future than my own. If you check the links that I posted you'll see that they are about a sustainable lifestyle and permaculture ( An Idea or philosophy that was developed in Australia).....and really means using all our modern day resources and technology to create an eco friendly environment.....a lifestyle were you are totally self sufficient ( Though you can still use your computers)
The CAT centre is a marvellous place, they produce so many vegetables that they have to have a vegetarian restaurant to sell them ( the reason it is vegi is because they don't want to waste their produce not for any ethical reasons)....they use windpower and solar power and have a train that goes up and down the mountain using the power of water.
This is what influenced me, but growing your own veg has always been a very English pastime, there is a culture associated with it, the people are very friendly and helpful and see you as a kindred spirit, a fellow eccentric.
The skills that you develop are very real and beneficial. As somebody who loves to cook I appreciate being able to get hold of fresh produce straight from kitchen garden to table, herbs as well .......my sons learn that food comes from Mother Nature and not Ronald Mcdonald.........I like to think about the old masters of karate, they would have grown up in a different society to us, all these skills and abilities were available to them.
I used to love a TV programme ine the 70's called " out of Town".......were there was this old boy called Jack Hargreaves who used to talk about country life, and used to get very sad that all the old skills would be lost.
......And there's more, .......I tried making my own Ale once, the first lot was divine, a stout that tasted like Murphy's ( If you know the brewery), the next two batches were disappointing and in the end were used to catch slugs
......but I shall brew again
.......and that is the brew that I shall down the day that the proverbially brown smelly stuff hits the big whirly thing. 
......hope your job search is going well ( ever thought of going south, the climate might help your arthritis).like yourself, I don't believe that you can plan for a disaster...if you could then it wouldn't be a disaster.........So that is only half of it, also at my age I'm more inclind to think of my children's future than my own. If you check the links that I posted you'll see that they are about a sustainable lifestyle and permaculture ( An Idea or philosophy that was developed in Australia).....and really means using all our modern day resources and technology to create an eco friendly environment.....a lifestyle were you are totally self sufficient ( Though you can still use your computers)
The CAT centre is a marvellous place, they produce so many vegetables that they have to have a vegetarian restaurant to sell them ( the reason it is vegi is because they don't want to waste their produce not for any ethical reasons)....they use windpower and solar power and have a train that goes up and down the mountain using the power of water.
This is what influenced me, but growing your own veg has always been a very English pastime, there is a culture associated with it, the people are very friendly and helpful and see you as a kindred spirit, a fellow eccentric.
The skills that you develop are very real and beneficial. As somebody who loves to cook I appreciate being able to get hold of fresh produce straight from kitchen garden to table, herbs as well
.......my sons learn that food comes from Mother Nature and not Ronald Mcdonald.........I like to think about the old masters of karate, they would have grown up in a different society to us, all these skills and abilities were available to them.I used to love a TV programme ine the 70's called " out of Town".......were there was this old boy called Jack Hargreaves who used to talk about country life, and used to get very sad that all the old skills would be lost.
......And there's more,
.......I tried making my own Ale once, the first lot was divine, a stout that tasted like Murphy's ( If you know the brewery), the next two batches were disappointing and in the end were used to catch slugs......but I shall brew again
.......and that is the brew that I shall down the day that the proverbially brown smelly stuff hits the big whirly thing. 