Fancy Uechi Tools

[IJ]

From another thread on the women's Forum:

"What you have in the bullet man scenario is people using basic moves. Palm heel strikes, knees and elbows. "

--Hmmm...sounds like Uechi Ryu!"

Some of it does. But our signature weapon is the shoken, and most of our kata strikes are fingertip. Does this work in real life... as it was supposed to be practiced.... as it is practiced... as metaphor for something you can stick a fist of your choice on?

In short, I'm wondering if anyone has ever put the force of their body behind a shoken, sanchin strike, nukite, boshiken using the traditional thumb and fingertips, not the palm heel... or a hiraken, into an opponent. I'm not counting grinding something sharp into a owwie point, and I'm not counting the "closing function" of crushing a gonad halfway from boshiken to hiraken, etc. I would just like to hear stories of what happens when these things are employed as they are most often displayed in our kata. My experience is limited to helping out a group of TKD students who were trying to punch through pizza boxes, by showing that a shoken can do some things a seiken cannot, but that doesn't really inform on the topic at hand.

[2Green]

I practice all of the above on the top third of a 40-lb hanging sandbag. I can punch this with a shoken pretty well as hard as I CAN punch; same with bushiken, no problem. Remember these are soft-target weapons, not for the jawbone.
The only one I have trouble with is the tiger-paw; it always collapses, I can't keep it rigid enough.
And nukites are a little tricky too...need short fingernails and strong hands...again, a soft tissue weapon.
NM

[Guest]

But our signature weapon is the shoken, and most of our kata strikes are fingertip. Does this work in real life... as it was supposed to be practiced.... as it is practiced... as metaphor for something you can stick a fist of your choice on?

I see kata as a template that teaches power generation, and how to meet energy. (Attack, aggression, choose a word) The attack or attacking energy can only be delivered from "x" # of angles or directions. Actually power is usually delivered up the middle (straight line) or from a circular route from the outside to the center. Kata gives use the tools to move in and around these attacks.

I see the actual choice of striking surface as dictated by the target. The old hard target soft hand, rule….., but also our mindset and intent of the aggressor will also play a part in weapon selection. For example if the knee strike after the front kick in Seisan. If your cousin's boyfriend has had too much drink at the wedding…you might deliver a knee to his thigh and palm him on top of the shoulder, push him to the ground with some open palm pushes or strikes to his head and shoulders.

Same kata but aggressor is unknown to you in an alley late at night. The knee might target the liver and the palm might strike the kidneys as the attacker folds.multiple shuto's or shokens then might be driven into the neck.

Same kata different weapons. I see kata as teaching the principles of flowing with the aggressor's attack. This is programmed into our primal brains through countless hours or repetition. I see weapon selection as the thinking part of the equation.

In short, I'm wondering if anyone has ever put the force of their body behind a shoken, sanchin strike, nukite, boshiken using the traditional thumb and fingertips, not the palm heel... or a hiraken, into an opponent. I'm not counting grinding something sharp into a owwie point, and I'm not counting the "closing function" of crushing a gonad halfway from boshiken to hiraken, etc. I would just like to hear stories of what happens when these things are employed as they are most often displayed in our kata..

I have limited experience. Proper targeting cuts down on personal injury but in the heat of battle and a moving EBG is hard to hit. You miss and land on elbows heads knees etc. bottom line, if you strike with your hands expect to receive some damage to them.

Bill has stressed strengthening our hands and he's right, but there's only so much time in a day, and most of us have failed to condition our hands as strong as they should be.

I have found that landing with the wrists, knife edge, ridge hand, hammer fist, and palm heel to be very effective and safe.

Every time I have attempted driving a shoken from a distance, the finger ends up getting sprained. Even chaining shokens to the base of the neck or upper chest is tough on the finger joint. The shoken wants to bend towards your thumb. This is a very effective strike to the neck but also an easy way to bust the index finger if you hit the wrong target. I have modified my shoken fist to the same grip I use on a blade. I place my thumb on top of my shoken finger instead of behind it. This gives it more support and help prevents it from bending in the wrong direction. This is the same finger position that allows me to feel the blade when cutting. I also managed to bust the bones that make the shoken in my left hands a few years back and this is the only way I can form the strike with my left as the finger does not close properly.This modified position gives enough suport to prevent the sprain and it also allows the shoken to colapse a bit without injury if you end up striking a head or other hard surface.

I see the shoken as an effective tool but I don't see it as a long-range blast to hard targets.

I've only ever delivered a nukite to the neck. They work! If you keep the fingers slightly curled it doesn't matter if you land on a hard target like the chin the fingers fold and you land a flat punch thingie. I really like this tool!

I am constantly destroying my hand trying to land an effective bushiken strike. In fact last work out I sprained my thumb going into my training partners neck. (He's a fairly solid guy )

If I stick with my original interpretation of the bushiken I just stick a straight or curved thumb into the neck, squeeze and try to pull the EBG into the neck strike with what ever neck meat I can get a hold of. This has proven effective in real fights.

When I target with the 2nd knuckle of the thumb I find I'm always messing up my thumb. Hitting the wrong surface at the wrong angle. I need much help on this technique. I have found that when I strike with this knuckle correctly it is an exceptional strike. I find that if I'm kind of missing the target I can shear through the target with a real solid knuckle. I find this effective the neck and ribs when delivered in a straight shot (like a sanchin thrusts path)

Wear I constantly run into grief is when I try to deliver the strike on a curved arc. I end up suffering most of the damage.

The only one I have trouble with is the tiger-paw; it always collapses, I can't keep it rigid enough.

NM

I had the same problem with it. I modified mine so that the back of the hand is flat. Think nukite with the fingers curled till they just touch the start of the palm. I keep the thumb tucked straight suporting the middle two fingers. It works for me, try it on your sandbag


Laird

[Bill Glasheen]

This topic requires much careful thought. But it's an excellent one, and I am glad Ian brought it up. My personal belief is that most Uechika are far from being capable of using what is truly unique in their system. The causes are varied: 1) most people frankly don't know how to train their hands to use the style Kanbun first witnessed/conceived/taught, 2) many modern Uechika have Okinawan karate as the working paradigm - a style largely built around the seiken fist, 3) many of the other Chinese sister styles (i.e. Wing Chun) also are lacking in knowledge of the weapons in Kanbun's original style, and 4) most people don't know how to use these weapons properly.

In short, I'm wondering if anyone has ever put the force of their body behind a shoken, sanchin strike, nukite, boshiken using the traditional thumb and fingertips, not the palm heel... or a hiraken, into an opponent. I'm not counting grinding something sharp into a owwie point, and I'm not counting the "closing function" of crushing a gonad halfway from boshiken to hiraken, etc. I would just like to hear stories of what happens when these things are employed as they are most often displayed in our kata.

First, this is a good start.

Second, add the sokusen (big toe kick) to the list. It really belongs on the table, as all the considerations are the same.

Third, I think your "wondering" is flawed (but only a little bit) from the start. To some extent, you are repeating the mistake of measuring Kanbun's style by the standards of styles like Shotokan. The Okinawans - IMHO - made this mistake in the generations past Kanbun. In some ways they made "a" style better, but they changed the nature of it. In doing so, they didn't necessarily make Kanbun's style better, nor did they (necessarily) come up with a style that makes better fighters (as opposed to tournament competitors or law enforcement officers or personal body guards). Newer versions of Kanbun's style measure up better to Shotokan and Goju and Isshinryu standards, but ... Kanbun never intended to fight like them in the first place. It's like trying to evaluate a car for someone by YOUR standards (perhaps safety being the number one criteria) when the person who wants the car has different standards (perhaps economy or performance being the number one criteria).

Pangainoon as defined by Bill Glasheen is NOT half hard half soft. The meaning according to Bill (not that it's right... ) is "sometimes this, and sometimes that." A shoken is equally as likely to be a grab and tear flesh as it is to be a thrust (tsuki), a strike (uchi), or a poke (nuki).

Let's take the nuki as an example. Do we really want a Uechika to "put the force of their body" behind a poke? Let's take knife fighting as a parallel example. Would you really want someone to "put the force of their body" behind a FMA-style knife slash? IMHO, the Shotokan folks have been neutering the essence of what Kanbun's style was meant to be with their emphasis on hardness and their own particular style generating energy. It's not bad; it's different. There's nothing inherently wrong with either oil or water, but the two don't mix well unless you use detergent, in which case you have lost the unique properties of either substance.

Why is the "poke" (or a grab) so important? Well let me answer that question with a question. With your body flailing in a horizontal position (your power base removed) and a jiujitsu practitioner sitting on you, what do you have left? How are you going to do sufficient damage with significantly less total power? Think about the martial problem, and the optimal way out of it. You'd be surprised where it leads you.

Think also about the issue of multiple opponents. Many martial arts problems today are analyzed in terms of the classic duel with only a handful of conditions. What is optimal in one venue is not necessarily optimal in another. And there is (to my knowledge) no one (specific) method that works best in all venues.

Think also about generalizing to weapons. Has anyone ever looked at a weapon like the sai, and then looked at what your hand looks like when you hold it? I could go on... Can you chamber with a sai (for example) the same way you chamber with a seiken fist?

I'll save more comments - ones along the lines of Ian's original intent - for a separate post.

- Bill

[2Green]

"Has anyone ever looked at a weapon like the sai, and then looked at what your hand looks like when you hold it? I could go on... Can you chamber with a sai (for example) the same way you chamber with a seiken fist?"

"IMHO, the Shotokan folks have been neutering the essence of what Kanbun's style was meant to be with their emphasis on hardness and their own particular style generating energy."

MMmm: juicy tidbits! Would love to read more on these!

NM

[IJ]

We practice most of these weapons in kata like we're hitting as hard as we can, yet most of the responses deal with or focus on the other uses of these weapons--from clenching or grinding weapons to stand ins for other weapons entirely. I see myself jabbing a shoken into a neck or something when the opportunity presents, but I think with most situations firing at a moving opponent is going to buy me a chance at hitting something way to hard or at a bad angle, and I don't think that's too wise, and even if it's something soft I don't see the purpose of doing it like we do in kata--full bore. Does anyone envision themselves hitting this way--or is this just a training tool, and we think about it between when we leave the dojo and when we get attacked?

[2Green]

I have often wondered: "why not just punch?!"
It seems the balled fist is evolution's natural weapon and we're trying to unlearn eons of success.
But all these variations are predicated upon the triumph of brain (a smarter/better way) over brawn (the good old fashioned way).
So hypothetically all these shokens, nukites, shutos etc. are smarter/more effective or deadly alternatives to nature's best, and furthermore, they can become a learned response in the panic of the moment.
Sound a little far-fetched?

So did manned flight.

NM

[Shaolin]

For whatever it's worth – a comparison:

In WCK which weapon used is determined by last contact position if any, arm/leg body location with respect to the opponent’s center and which line(s) need to be closed - to fill space naturally - that's mostly it. The idea of seeing a particular target open and then choosing a particular weapon to hit that target is, for the most part, a foreign concept to the system because of the time needed to see, select and implement.

Jim

[TSDguy]

"The idea of seeing a particular target open and then choosing a particular weapon to hit that target is, for the most part, a foreign concept to the system because of the time needed to see, select and implement."

I love that. I've previously thought about that so much and just kept coming up with "there is no way you have the time/mental awareness to pick the right weapon." Then you wind up spear-handing someone in the jaw and tiger-clawing someone in the abs. All you get is a broken hand and a pissed off opponent.

[Bill Glasheen]

Time for some "devil's advocate" fun...

I have often wondered: "why not just punch?!"
It seems the balled fist is evolution's natural weapon and we're trying to unlearn eons of success...

...and failure. A punch towards the head is - by the standards of many traditional AND contemporary martial instructors - a high risk proposition.

The hammer fist or the palm heel is much smarter, as it is less likely to result in a damaged hand.

A woman is much more likely to use a claw hand (to the face or elsewhere) out of instinct - sometimes with success. It's very common for police to check for DNA under the fingernails of women (dead or alive) in assault cases. Several contemporary scenario training experts I've personally seen that train with (and sell) their suits do claw hand strikes to the face as part of their responses in demonstrations. These are non-Uechika doing what amounts to classic boshikens or tiger system techniques.

The idea of seeing a particular target open and then choosing a particular weapon to hit that target is, for the most part, a foreign concept to the system because of the time needed to see, select and implement.

Hi, Jim!

I won't argue with you about WCK as you da man and I'm merely an interested newbie.

I will point out, however, that neither police officer nor soldier (i.e. Marine) has a problem carrying multiple weapons (including empty hand) to a life/death situation, choosing the weapon needed, and applying anything from small motor coordination (pulling a trigger) to gross motor movement (like a "blood choke"). Or a number of options inbetween. And police officers are expected (by law) to use the exact level of force necessary - and no more - to thwart a combative suspect and restrain them. Do it wrong and YOU end up in jail.

I know, I know, the Lethal Force experts tell us we can't do squat when the "chemical cocktail" sends our body to extreme physiologic states. Indeed performance in a number of different dimensions degrades with increased sympathetic tone. Indeed life/death situations call for KISS responses. But... there are many successes in life/death struggles that are "common" that defy the logic that is often presented to us by the LF guys. Why do we have fighter pilots? Why do we teach soldiers to shoot guns?

Life has many interesting possibilities.

- Bill

[IJ]

Jim, I think it'd be no harder or slower to see which weapon to use rather than to feel which weapon to use. Perhaps you're just used to doing it the feel way and the see way looks cumbersome. Further, there's a lot of other ground to cover besides that 1/1000 chance someone is going to lift their jaw and you'll see it, chose a shoken and fire away. I think in the heat of full speed fist fight, there isn't going to be much happening with shokens while people are throwing punches all over. But...

What if you are digging in someone's eyes and pushing their head back and reflexively you find your other hand is hitting them in the exposed neck with that shoken just like you were taught in a whole bunch of uechi kata?

What if you are hitting preemptively?

What if you *feel* an opening and strike with an appropriate fist in response? That isn't a copyrighted technique.

What if you are grappling either standing or on the ground and in this slower paced environment there's either something soft to hit or something soft to grab or dig into?

I don't think that tomorrow someone is going to write in and say, yes, a fancy fist is what saved my butt from disaster yesterday. Most of the money is elsewhere by my read, but that doesn't mean these tools don't have their place--there are a bunch of conceivable and realistic options to use them.

[Shaolin]

Hi, Jim!

I won't argue with you about WCK as you da man and I'm merely an interested newbie.

I will point out, however, that neither police officer nor soldier (i.e. Marine) has a problem carrying multiple weapons (including empty hand) to a life/death situation, choosing the weapon needed, and applying anything from small motor coordination (pulling a trigger) to gross motor movement (like a "blood choke"). Or a number of options inbetween. And police officers are expected (by law) to use the exact level of force necessary - and no more - to thwart a combative suspect and restrain them. Do it wrong and YOU end up in jail.

I know, I know, the Lethal Force experts tell us we can't do squat when the "chemical cocktail" sends our body to extreme physiologic states. Indeed performance in a number of different dimensions degrades with increased sympathetic tone. Indeed life/death situations call for KISS responses. But... there are many successes in life/death struggles that are "common" that defy the logic that is often presented to us by the LF guys. Why do we have fighter pilots? Why do we teach soldiers to shoot guns?

Life has many interesting possibilities.

- Bill

Hey Bill - Velcome Back!

Thanks for the complement. Not sure if I'm really 'da man' in WCK but I do my best. There are few absolutes of course and WCK does have several hand weapons along with elbows, kicks and stomps, etc. so selection is made. Just trying to relate how selection may differ in this system as I understand it and without getting too technical.

Everything is simplified in the system. The target is, in essence, always the same – the Centerline and the weapon used is normally dictated by the distance, the last position of the arms/legs, if there is contact, body position in relation to the opponent, etc as opposed to some kind of visual/cognitive selection system.

When arms or hands for example are in a particular position (with respect to the opponent’s arms/body) certain strikes would be awkward or require a positional or structural change - so the move or movements that are the least awkward are always used. This in part stems from ideas like longest weapon to nearest target, hand replacement, etc. From certain positions it is clear that certain weapons follow naturally and others much less so. After doing say a Pak Da there is really only one most efficient and most commonly used movement - and so this is used instinctively - a Lan Sao. Given that feel and positioning is 90% of the learning and perceiving in the system it isn't surprising that weapon selection is also done intuitively, naturally, fluidly.

Jim

[Stryke]

good topic , ive stayed out because it`s fairly Uechi specific and the only Uechi i do is a rough Sanchin ....

but I use the techniques being dicussed , not as strikes to the forehead but they have there place , grasping seizing , and striking anatomical weaknesses is inherant in all the okinawan arts , and the okinawan derived arts .... its all how deep you dig , all the hand positions are more and more personal variations that individuals found usefull for a purpose ... you want a good hand positioning ? , easy .... work out what you want to do then do it , youll find your hands do whats needed , practice it , repeat it , strengthen and teach it and in a thousand years it`ll be a meaningless finger gesture .


Quote

the Shotokan folks have been neutering the essence of what Kanbun's style was meant to be with their emphasis on hardness and their own particular style generating energy. It's not bad; it's different. There's nothing inherently wrong with either oil or water, but the two don't mix well unless you use detergent, in which case you have lost the unique properties of either substance.

**errr sorry Sensei Glasheen couldnt let this slip , if your Uechi techniques arent working properly these days it`s because youve lost the point ? , sounds like your neutering yourselves , Shotokans been developing its own fuel and the grabbing seizing nerve strikes etc is adding the Shotokan fuel to the okinawan fire so to speak , I think they mix excellently , actually I personally see it as just a different focus on ranges and basics .

[Bill Glasheen]

Stryke

I had to read this one carefully. I said...

the Shotokan folks have been neutering the essence of what Kanbun's style was meant to be with their emphasis on hardness and their own particular style generating energy. It's not bad; it's different. There's nothing inherently wrong with either oil or water, but the two don't mix well unless you use detergent, in which case you have lost the unique properties of either substance.

...and Stryke responded...

if your Uechi techniques arent working properly these days it`s because youve lost the point ? , sounds like your neutering yourselves...

Actually you are right on the money, Stryke. I was imprecise with my language.

But I will say that I don't consider myself part of the collective "you." Essentially I came from a hard Japanese karate background (Nippon Shorin Ken), and have a full appreciation for the what and the how of that martial approach. I also have had brief training sessions with a very remarkable Shotokan practitioner (Ray Berry, also instructor to Ted Dinwiddie) who wa a protoge of Master Oshima. I have seen "Shotokan power," and have played with it.

When I started Uechi ryu, it became immediately obvious to me that this was a whole other kettle of fish. As much as I tried to do Uechi like my hard Japanese style, it just didn't feel right. Over time, I have evolved to treating this material differently.

This gets to the very thing Ian said in the beginning. After leaving it, I was going to come back to it this morning. Then I saw your comment, Stryke. You were right.

Ian said.

In short, I'm wondering if anyone has ever put the force of their body behind a shoken, sanchin strike, nukite, boshiken using the traditional thumb and fingertips, not the palm heel... or a hiraken, into an opponent. I'm not counting grinding something sharp into a owwie point, and I'm not counting the "closing function" of crushing a gonad halfway from boshiken to hiraken, etc. I would just like to hear stories of what happens when these things are employed as they are most often displayed in our kata.

Bold emphasis is mine.

This is the rub, Stryke. We have a circuitous argument going on amongst our peers. You see some practicing kata with extraordinary body power applied to shoken thrusts (for example). Kata that end with shokens are even done with a kiai at that point. These same folks may or may not be doing the kind of work that is necessary to make that shoken hand useful (Face it - they don't.). Then there is the complaint that the things just don't work (Of course they don't - like that). So then the material is thrown away in favor of something that will work when you move your body like that. Then the method is declared superior. The logic becomes self fulfilling.

There is nothing wrong with the Shotokan method, just like there is nothing wrong with taiji or aikido or BJJ or Western boxing. But each was designed from the bottom up to work a certain way. You can mix and match elements from one style to the next, and they may work. But sometimes they don't. It's like operating a "chop shop" and throwing pieces and parts of different make cars together. Sometimes you end up with a mess. All parts must work together synergistically to create the whole. When they don't mix well, you can't blame the individual parts.

Uechi ryu does indeed have techiques - like with the elbows and knees - that can utilize (in fact demand) massive total body energy. Other techniques - like the ones that deliver energy on the tip of a finger or a toe - aren't about massive total energy. They are about delivering energy to a very precise target. Throwing massive amounts of hip and breath energy in a shoken is like trying to hook a dentist's drill bit up to a drill designed to go through masonry. That amount of torque is not needed and the drill probably won't spin fast enough to get through the tooth. If the bit were to encounter some resistance, the excess motor torque would likely break the bit.

Are such techniques done as thrusts (there are other uses...) effective? Well when you consider force per unit area (pressure), they easily hold their own. A pressure gradient on a surface you have just gouged creates an entirely different (damage) effect than a massive force input over a broader area.

Oh, but when we are under severe stress (when we aren't able to control the situation around us OR ourselves...), then we lose the ability to use any technique precisely. True... When we are under extreme levels of stress, we ****** at small motor coordination and have massive amounts of power than we can use with large motor coordination and gross motor movement only. True... Uechi has its elbow and knee techniques (thrusts, strikes, etc.), so you are covered.

But... There is no technique that will work in all situations - period. No mechanic (who wants to keep his job) will attempt to use a pair of pliers to remove a nut. The mechanic needs a tool kit, and a minimum number of tools to get most things done. Same with the fighter.

There are times when the power base is lacking. There are times when we don't have the feet firmly planted and so can't use massive hip power. Or better yet, you may be working with a grappler in a clinch and have your power based engaged in maintaining your center so you won't be slammed to the pavement. Great... What are you going to do when your striking/thrusting power output is reduced by 90% because all you can use is a little bit of arm power? How can you use that little bit efficiently and effectively?

There are times when you aren't so stressed that you are pissing your pants. There are times when you are under control and can do small motor movements.

Not only that, there are times that small motor coordination is not needed to do movements with the delicate extremities. A clawing motion to the eyes is going to do something. Darwinian evolution created cat anatomy and programmed cat fighting instincts because they worked! Cat claws are fragile but effective. It's worth looking at things that work in nature - in life and death struggles - to see what we humans can program (or perhaps reinforce) in ourselves. That's what the original Shaolin fighters did.

When I was in Germany, I told the Regensburg dojo participants to break out of a one dimensional mode in doing kata. Many Uechika get enamored with the chest-thumping power movements of the hard styles. They get lots of points and smiles in the tournament kata competions and dan tests - with judges that see only those elements of fighting. It's good, but there's more. The Uechi kata have so much, and so many ways to get the job done. It's a shame to view the whole toolkit as nothing but a pair of pliers with which you can do all things.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Sensei Glasheen thnaks for the reply , i realised my post could of been takin as inflamatory but I`m glad you understood where I`m comig from , I dont consider myself a typical Shotokan guy either for what it`s worth ...

totally agree with you on the dynamics involved in using such tools , I could not see anyone conditioning to a point to do full power *hip rotation etc* strikes with fingrs etc and getting away with it , actually I dont think you can condition the fist to take that kind of real power on a hard target.. but thats another thread .

anyway late for work , good post

Stryke