Newbie with Questions

A place to share ideas, concerns, questions, and thoughts about women and the martial arts.

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regkray
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Hi

Post by regkray »

Hi,


I relate to what Le and Allen are saying here.

This is the reason i got into MA's although I didn't know it at the time.

It is or can be a life long battle getting over DV.

I think the mind is the real battlefield.

After 20 years in MA's I realise I need to get my mind straight as opposed to make my punches even harder.

I have known women who have been abused by guys and in nearly all the instances there was abuse in childhood.

I think we get into patterns of behaviour, that is what we need to escape, IMVHO.

I wont say too much as i tend to P**s people off when I do.:)

I genuinely hope you learn to deal with your deamons guys, I know what it's like.

I'll finish with an old chinese proverb.:)


'If you sit patiently by the river eventually all your enemies will come floating by'.


Take Care



RK
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Deep Sea
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Post by Deep Sea »

Hello LeAnn,
I've got a long way to go…That is perhaps the toughest part.
You have a great deal of courage and the rewards will be there for you when you look back.
I "know" consciously that all guys aren't bad...just like I know that all swans aren't white. I just have never personally seen a black swan or been in that close of a relationship with a guy that wasn't.
It’s got to be pretty much the same for both genders. Keepers are far and few in between and you will feel the thorns when you rech for the more beautiful roses. And kids make it that much more difficult, no?
I do want to clarify… "As you obviously know, the abusers in DV don't attack when you have weapons handy." … I've never actually heard of a domestic violence situation where the abuser went after someone who could defend themself with a weapon at that instance.
I was so focused on opening my own window to the past I misread yours completely, and for that I must apologize. I think you’re absolutely right to a large degree. In my small view of that part of the world it was a control issue where men would try to control the woman with violence while, in a divorce situation and women would try to control the man by wrapping her hands around his money. This I learned while dating divorced women while I, myself was in that state.
As for the rest, thanks for the compliments and good wishes. Supportive men like you are actually why I got into MAs.
Welcome into these forums, LeAnn. I hope your stay is a pleasant one and
Last edited by Deep Sea on Thu May 22, 2003 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
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Deep Sea
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A Slick Sick World

Post by Deep Sea »

Hello RK.
After 20 years in MA's I realise I need to get my mind straight as opposed to make my punches even harder.
Mind, body, and spirit. For most of us who remain in the martial arts for many years, the punching harder takes a back seat. I think MA is a real personality director.
I have known women who have been abused by guys and in nearly all the instances there was abuse in childhood.
It's a sick world out there, and this abuse thing is like a cancer. Is there a cure? Why have both men and women lost the respect for each other in epidemic proportions?
Always with an even keel.
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2Green
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Post by 2Green »

Yeah, it must be a "continental" thing...I've heard of some other European martial arts luminaries, but never Geoff Thompson.
I'll check him out for sure.
Bear in mind I said in my post about how lots of good & genuine people get "glitzed" by publishers, and this puts them in a somewhat less-than-flattering light.
Not dissin' the guy, just seen the site URL's given; that's the impression it gives one.
In your part of the world, ever heard of Bob Campbell? Jim Maloney? Joe Pomfret?

I will check out Mr. Thompson and add to my knowledge base.

NM
regkray
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Hi

Post by regkray »

Hi,

There's a lot of repressed anger out there. But it goes round in circles. Someone abuses someone they take it out on someone else.

The mother or father hits the child the child becomes an abuser. The abused partner abuses the children and on it goes.

And abuse can be subtle it does not have to be beatings. Verbal or emotional abuse can be just as damaging.

There is so much of it about one could almost say it is part of the human condition.

It is difficult to know the answer if there is one.

You can only really work on yourself. It's all mind stuff as the Dalai Lama says.

Good Luck

Steven
Music is the space in between the notes
regkray
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Post by regkray »

Hi,


In your part of the world, ever heard of Bob Campbell? Jim Maloney? Joe Pomfret?

Wel yeah i hear about them on threads on here. I also like Peyton Quinn and Charles Nelson from your part of the world.

Take care

steven
Music is the space in between the notes
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Le Haggard
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Re: A Slick Sick World

Post by Le Haggard »

Deep Sea wrote:
I have known women who have been abused by guys and in nearly all the instances there was abuse in childhood.
It's a sick world out there, and this abuse thing is like a cancer. Is there a cure? Why have both men and women lost the respect for each other in epidemic proportions?
When you guys figure it out, let me in on it will ya? I do know one thing though. If a woman is taught that she doesn't deserve respect as a young girl, it sets her up for being abused in the future by every man in her life. If a man is taught that women don't deserve respect as a young boy, it sets him up to abuse every woman in his life in the future in one way or another, whether mental or physical, subtle or blatant. I've seen those dynamics way too much first hand. The question I have is, How do you change it after the children have grown up?

Le'
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Deep Sea
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Post by Deep Sea »

When you guys figure it out, let me in on it will ya?
The writeup below is what I've managed to figure out so far, LeAnne. While it maybe only a piece of the lemon-morass marange managerie, I consider it a significant portion of that pie.

Don't take offense if you are raising a kid alone because I'm adjusting my sights at only the negative aspect of 50% or so, to the class of people I'm about to describe. While there are many great parents out there, the response isn't to write about all the beautiful people out there, only about the beauts. Before you walk away with the flavor of leaning toward negativity toward women, read and reread what I wrote about casuals and live-ins for a balance of the scales for both sexes.

What makes it even worse is that it's the chicken or egg predicament, , impossible to improve upon without exterior forces being applied to have one without the other.

I would venture a gander that at least 50% of the kids grow up in broken homes. I hate the whitewashed term "single-parent families" because that PC verbage hides the thought of what really is going on behind the scenes most of the time.

Now with that a given, a lot of kids are also brought into this world unwanted, are considered a burden, and just dragged up rather than properly reared, cared for, and loved. Furthermore, more and more dads are finding out through DNA testing that up to 1/3 of them are not the fathers they thought they were -- married dads included. This one's a real shocker. Reference http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/ on this and look into their archives if you have an interest or a curiosity.

The high divorce rate often bumps 50%. Divorces, and many of the events which live up to such, deliver such a devastating blow to kids regardless of what age they are, that those kids are off-balance, often for the reset of their lives. On the lightest of the downside, those parents don't have the time or they don't want to spend the time these kids need and deserve, or are so involved in their own emotional difficulties that the kids needs and wants often take a back seat to the whole mess.

The custodial parent, more often than not the mother, breeds hate and contempt against against the ex-spouse which often translates directly and verbally to the rest of the members of the sex [gender, parden my PC crudeness], of the ex-spouse being bashed. And the kids hear it all the time because this hatred of the ex-mate transcends into all activities of daily life from simple phone conversations, to meal time, to visits by the ex. Kids often see an endless stream of numerous boyfriends interested only in skinny dipping. The young ones may thinnk "Which of you really is my daddy?"

What does that do to a little girl? Hate breeds hate and contempt breeds contempt. The girl learns to hate men because mom hates men and learns they are good for only money and for a good roll when the itch gets too great. The poor little boys think this is what women are all about? No wonder they grow up not wanting to give women anything except to satisfy their itch.

I went out with enough divorcees with kids to recognize those common traits which begin to reveal themselves after the first few dates and visits.

And many live-in boyfriends and second-timers look at the little girls with lustfulness as soon as the buds begin to blossom. I know this and did deep research on this one in particular because my own daugther was violated by her step father even before adolescense. Good for his life that I didn't know about those events until years after the fact when I found out where my daugher was [she was kidnapped from me by her mother when she was about 3 and we were finally reunited, my daughter and I that is, some years ago when she was 16 by the state who found her on the streets a few years earlier].

No wonder kids are confused -- it's hell out there. My two younger sons, while in upper classes of grade school but especially especially in high school, told me most of their classmates came from broken homes and most of them had adjustment problems. There seems to be a strong undercurrent of kids with emotional difficulties, mis-direction or no drection at all, and bent for trouble. No wonder kids violently revolt against their parents when the glands kick in. And no wonder this translates into troubled and often violent relationships with the opposite gender as so evident starting in young adulthood and extending until much later in life where they have provided fertile ground to renew the damagage to their own offsprings, often as oblivious space cadets.

If you want references to the above, as some do, all that's required is to keep ypur eyes and ears open to the signals and read the newspapers. Young people often never get it, I surmise the mileage of the years and a few hard knocks in between are what's required to fuel the embers of enlightenment.

Chicken or egg? I gave what I know as one problem, one cause, and offer no solutions to any of it. You're on your own for that one.
How do you change it after the children have grown up?
I have two sets of children. The first set was destroyed by their mother. While my oldest remained with me and my wife of 23 years until he was 16, the uncorrectable damage was branded into his head from the time he was an infant. It took until he was in his late 20s to grow up and realize dad wasn't so bad after all, but he squandered his education and made so many mistakes in his younger life that he will never fully recover.

Development starts in the early days of life, and if you are hoping to break the chain, look toward your grandchildren because your children will always be already what they are and will be tempered only by age. You may succeed in holding a line with them but they are already who they are and who they will be. As a ray of hope, people can and do change, as my eldest did, but there's much that didn't.
Last edited by Deep Sea on Mon May 26, 2003 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

This has really been an amazing thread - thanks to all for your courage in sharing your experiences, your coping strategies, your ideas.

Abuse - of many kinds - seems to be a part of the human condition. It isn't pretty and it speaks to the complicated morass that is sometimes in everyone's mind. Abuse is arrived at for different reasons by different people at different times. And there is no cookie-cutter reason for its existence, and no cookie-cutter cure for its victims.

Leanne, if you haven't yet - please read this article:

http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/lizard.html

And if you get a chance, buy her book. It's worth every penny.

Like Allen says, most of the people in this worth are kind and gentle souls. But we're critters like any other animal we develop survival skills. If a man takes a try at taking us out - instinct puts men on the "stay away" from list. If a woman shoots at us or tried to break us financial (because finances ARE survival) then we put women on the "stay away" from list. Or, we become what we despise and continue the behaviors as they were modeled for us. Sometimes, we even do both.

And, as always, it is far from this simple -- but formative experiences are just that -- they create us, bend us, shape us is small or big ways. Part of the journey in training is trying to figure out if what served us in the past continues to serve our needs in the present. Today. Right now. So some of the things that kept you alive in a previous life may be keeping you from enjoying a full life today. Some of the things you learned are the reason you're having a full life today. But that's why it's worth examining each and every "defense mechanism" and/or "coping strategy" that we've got. To make sure they doing the right thing for us and by us so we can enjoy this one life.

So thank you again to all. Whether you know it or not, your stories are inspiring.

Dana
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Deep Sea
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Post by Deep Sea »

You responded during my many typo-editing text-improvement sessions [getting good at this PC naming convention here]. I'm done with it now.
Whether you know it or not, your stories are inspiring
While not sharing details, the whole purpose of me opening up in my writings is because I sensed a need, a call for support. There is strength to those who listen to others who have been through similar difficulties and have reached the other side. Time can either be your friend or enemy and it's largely your choice.

I know what my wife thinks of me. Today begins another birthday and a few minutes ago she entered the computer room with a cup of coffee, a dozen red roses, and some covertly acquired Lillacs [my favorites].

Although she brought no toast with the coffee, I know which side my bread is buttered on.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Allen :new-bday: .........and many happy returns :D
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Le Haggard
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Post by Le Haggard »

Hey Allen!

First off HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

I think there is some truth in what you say. Obviously though, coming from the other side (the Mom's/Woman's) I have a different take on these.

For me, there are plenty of pr*** dads out there that don't give a rat's @$$ about their kids really. My ex had a baby with his ***** less than 6 months after our divorce. He had married her the minimum of legal time after the divorce papers were signed.

That right off shows who disrespects whom to the kids. Top that off with his abusiveness and well you see how that goes. I know plenty of women in my place too. Right now, my Daughter has been waiting for 3 months for the birthday present that he said he would bring visitation after visitation or mail week after week. It still hasn't arrived nor has he delivered it. Now my son's birthday gift is "in the mail" too. A dad who cared would put his previous kids ahead of anyone else. They don't. Yet a single mom that goes out and wants to date is criticized for not becoming a martyr and sacrificing her whole future or any chance at one even.

As far as single parenthood goes, raising kids alone is a hand to mouth situation. There simply are not resources to permit single mothers to spend "quality time" with their kids. For me personally, it has been all my time getting myself through school and keeping us supported, keeping us alive if you will. Dads seem to want to pay the minimum child support possible, disregarding the fact that the ones they are hurting are the kids who are owed their financial support.

That has nothing to do with being money grubbing. It's about survival that is owed. I put my ex through years of college only to be divorced (and told I ruined *his* Life??) 6 months before he graduated, after we had co-signed the last of his student loans. Gold diggers come in the male variety just as often as female. I can't tell you the number of divorced single moms that I know who had already put their "husband" through just before getting divorced. We were "paychecks" while they were in college and tossed out for the younger bimbo model once they were through.

I personally haven't really dated in something like 5 years (my divorce was in court the winter 1996-Spring 1997). I don't even bring friends home because of the attitude you expressed about single moms. Its not that I'm a slut that puts out that "need to get the itch scratched" attutide. The reality from my perspective is that the few guys I've gone out with enough to start, in my mind, getting serious with, had the attitude that single moms were easy marks. At least that's what turns out after the fact. Single moms think we may actually have a chance developing for a good relationship then the guy is gone as soon as he gets what he wants. Men sucker single moms way more often than I would say single moms sucker men. I've got lots of friends to back that up who have been through the same thing.

So what happens? We don't trust men at all. The "exes" took us for tuition and the rest use us for a toss. What single mom in their right mind would trust men after those experiences?

I could go on and on and show how the guys are the pigs from the woman's point of view. The way I see it though, its 50/50. Each of us has only seen half the coin for this situation. It can be either or both sides that turn out to make kids the way they are. Or neither. It isn't just the single parents out there. There are plenty of screwed up double parent families where brothers thrash on sisters or vice versa and its condoned.

What I think I agree with most is that many times today, parents are too busy trying to make ends meet to be able to help their own kids. That is something very sad and very sick with our society.

LeAnn

P.S.: MAs are one of the rare areas that I've found *decent* guys as friends. Classes are another...They still are just friends. Friends aren't where the problems are for single moms...it's the relationship arena.
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Deep Sea
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Post by Deep Sea »

The way I see it though, its 50/50
That's how I understand it as well, only I couldn't write from the woman's side of things. Remember, the opposite gender is not the enemy, rather a portion of them are.

I also was a single parent for a while and know what it's like to go from hand to mouth as well.

The bottom line to our cyber-discussion stems from your question on how to prevent cruelty to children, and we both seem to see eye-to-eye on possibly the major cause.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
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Le Haggard
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Post by Le Haggard »

Dana:

WOW! Great article! Thanks...There is so much in it that is dead on for me. VERY VERY Good stuff! I will definately have to link it to the guys I'm learning from.

Allen: Yup. Both of us see the problem. Hopefully I will be able to fix some of it for my kids.

As far as being a newbie goes, I think it helps too to get an idea of the other side of that coin, just to know that not all people are "that" way ya know? All the more reason I can see for this board and "co-ed" MAs. For me, "men who hit" are being shown through MAs to sometimes be "men who protect" instead of "men who abuse." It sounds simple..but ooooh it's so complex. Its HUGE.

Le'
regkray
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Sadness

Post by regkray »

Hi,

It is not often you find a thread like this, and on a MA page of all places.

It is so good when men and women talk like this.

I remember being in a therapy group years ago, and the women were amazed when I told them how I felt.
They said they did not think men had such feelings.

I think fundamentally men and women are the same, socialization, bilological differences apart.

Anyone with any intelligence and I include the posters on here knows, the man/woman issues are 50/50 in the blame department, if blame is the right word.

I agree with Freud in that childhood is where our issues start.

But it is so easy to continue the cycle. Most people seem to be unaware even that this is going on. But even with awareness this is very hard to change. I suppose awareness is the start.


All we can do is limit the damage we do to others or at least try too.




RK
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