Needs of the Many, Wants of the Few (?)

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Should we ban radioactive neckwear in bars?

Yup, safety of nonusers outweighs their right to wear
7
100%
Yup, for their own safety
0
No votes
I dunno
0
No votes
No, that would limit personal freedom too much
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 7

Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

They also have the right to ban the eating at McDonalds or Burger King for anyone that is concidered overweight. Or the regulation or the ban of firearms. Or the regulation of karate instructors....
Can they? Are these laws reasonable?

(1) What is the source of the right? Is it a Constitutional right? Is is a non-Constitutional right, which has less protections than the Consitutional ones?
(2) What is the state's interest? Health and safety?
(3) Is the state's interest a legitimate one?
(4) Is the state's interest a reasonable one?
(5) Is the law rationally related to the state's interest?
(6) Is the law reasonable?

I was waiting for Panther to write in with the Ninth Amendment, because he he makes a valid point, as the Ninth Amendment has been used to give us certain Constitutional rights that were not enumerated in the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights. However, even those rights can be limited if there is compelling interest. And the Ninth Amendment doesn't say it protects all rights retained by the people, leaving open the interpretation that there are rights that aren't Constitution, and don't have such a high degree of protection. This is the governing judicial philosphy inthis country, backed up by many court cases.
there are alredy people suing Mc.D's because they are fat...
...and those cases have been tossed out of court. A complete non-issue.

Gene
IJ
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Post by IJ »

http://quitsmoking.about.com/library/we ... 092799.htm
http://www.ada.org/prof/pubs/daily/0303/0312tob.html
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/etsbro.html ... nonsmokers.
http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/29486.htm
http://www.smoke-free.ca/SL/Secondhandsmoke.PDF
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/media/re ... 00_26e.htm
http://www.womenshealthchannel.com/smok ... tors.shtml

These are the top few hits from a google on the matter. There aren't any randomized trials exposing people to second hand smoke, but there is data showing an association of SHS to diseases and a plausible mechanism. Ideally I could find something on a dose response curve that would be more suggestive, but we know first hand smoke is dangerous (even a single cig a day is known to paralyze the mucociliary elevator--little hairs that remove crap from your lungs) and I'm aware of no reason to think that SHS should be harmless when FHS is one of the greatest health disasters people have ever inflicted on themselves.

I wonder... it seems to me like a large fraction of the club and bar contingent prefers a no smoke environment. And yet I also get the sense that it would be difficult to establish a nonsmoking club or bar despite this. Perhaps my assumptions are wrong, maybe it's because the business of owning restaurants and such is marginal enough that if you include everyone in your target population you do ok but if you slice off a good fraction you're likely to fail financially. I know that this doesn't mean that nonsmokers have been prohibited from making a place of their own in the slightest, but it kinda ***** for them unless there's a ban, eh?

The consumption of arsenic for kicks I'm sure is prohibited--one can't even eat a THC containing brownie in those establishments. Killing oneself and carrying poisons for doing so into restaurants doesn't sound like a neutral activity to me, and probably the freedom to do so would enjoy a lot of lobbying from the al queda sector of our population.
--Ian
ljr
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Post by ljr »

just wanted to make my point clear... I am enjoing the ban, it is more the loss of a little bit of freedom.

25 years ago if you suggested this, you would be thought crazy.

When you say
As long as they do not give this poison to others, they are free to injest it all they wish. They are not harming anyone but themselves. That's the difference.
and then you say that the govenment could not outlaw the eating at McDonalds for any fat people, how is this diffefent than the govenment requiring the use of seatbelts in cars? or the use of motorcycle helmets?
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Requirin the occupants of an automobile to wear a seat belt and requiring the pasengers on a motorcycle to wear helmuts are reasonable regulations. Banning obese people from eating certain foods is NOT a reasonable regulation. THere is the diffrence. Assertions that they are in the same league is a red herring, and not comparable at all.

Gene
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Le Haggard
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Constitutional Law

Post by Le Haggard »

Since everyone is talking about the Constitution...

Here is a link to the United States Constitution through the House of Representatives:
U.S. Constitution
Amendments to the Constitution

The Amendment that I think may fit here is as follows:

"Article XIV.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. "

Wouldn't "equal protection" mean that the protection of the life of non-smokers is at least equal to the liberty of smokers to smoke? In fact, since the law wouldn't prohibit smoking, only smoking in public, it sounds like life, which isn't lived one place and not another, would take precidence. Not to mention that smokers and second hand smoke are infringing on the liberty of non-smokers to have clean air in public places and there by restricting their liberty to be in public safely. Perhaps we could look at it from the other direction. The state passing laws that ALLOW Smoking in public deprive NON-SMOKERS of life and liberty. Banning public smoking is correcting that. Just my interpretation.

If you are in your own car or home though? Smoke all the cancer sticks you wish...oh wait...I'm talking about radioactive crystals. :D I agree that "private membership" clubs, such as the cigar clubs that have popped up throughout the US, are legit ways to let smokers smoke (or wear rad-crystals) socially in a relatively "public" place.

Le'
*********
"We are not free, separate, and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way." ~~Thomas Mann
ljr
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Post by ljr »

Requirin the occupants of an automobile to wear a seat belt and requiring the pasengers on a motorcycle to wear helmuts are reasonable regulations. Banning obese people from eating certain foods is NOT a reasonable regulation.
Why?
ljr
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Post by ljr »

I agree that "private membership" clubs, such as the cigar clubs that have popped up throughout the US, are legit ways to let smokers smoke (or wear rad-crystals) socially in a relatively "public" place.
then what is to stop bars from doing what the do at bars in Mormon country?

make them a private club and charge a "small" fee to join? say about the same amount as a cover charge?

I have heard that in Mass there is no smoking allow at places like the VFW and such and these are private clubs.
IJ
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Post by IJ »

Gene, what's the threshold for a restriction being reasonable? I mean, if riding a motorcycle with a helmet happens to be less safe than riding in a car without a seatbelt, where does that leave us when we look for justification to mandate the belt? And if you drive infrequently on scarcely used flat wide open low risk roads in Kansas BUT you eat a really unhealthy diet, aren't you more at risk of dying from diet than lack of seatbelting? I don't have my own "rule" defined for this stuff and I wish I could put something sane together.

LH, the law doesn't forbid smoking in public. It encourages smoking in public by making it illegal to smoke indoors in setting where people can make their own decisions about whether they want second hand smoke or not. So aren't you forcing smoking on more unwilling people than before? Yes, I'm aware I'm arguing with myself. :)
--Ian
ljr
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Post by ljr »

the law doesn't forbid smoking in public
what is the definition of public?

Let's say I own a bar, isn't that a private establisment that allows the public in?

is that a private establishment or a public one?
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

As to what defines a "public" place, one must look into the specific law in question.

As to reasonable, the Supreme Court said it best in Jacobson v. Massachusetts

"'All laws...should receive a sensible construction. General terms should be so limited in their application as not to lead to injustice, oppression, or an absurd consequence. It will always, therefore, be presumed that the legislature intended exceptions to its language which would avoid results of this character. The reason of the law in such cases should prevail over its letter."

A law is "reasonable" if doesn't lead to injustice, oppression, or an absurd consequence.

AS to the 14th Amendment, the SC said in the same case that

"The liberty secured by the 14th Amendment...consists, in part, in the right of a person 'to live and work where he will' and yet he may be compelled, by force if need be, against his will and without regard to his personal wishes or his pecuniary interests, or even his religious or political convictions, to take his place in the ranks of the army of his country, and risk the chance of being shot down in its defense. It is not, therefore, true that the power of the public to guard itself against imminent danger depends in every case involving the control of one's body upon his willingness to submit to reasonable regulations established by the constituted authorities, under the sanction of the state, for the purpose of protecting the public collectively against such danger."

Jacobson v. Massachusetts quoting Allgeyer v. Louisiana

The individual can't subordinate the needs of the public to guard itself vs. danger.

Isn't keeping obese people from Mickey D's an absurd consequence?


Gene
IJ
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Post by IJ »

"A ban on smoking in public places in Helena, Montana, led to an immediate 60% drop in the incidence of mycardial infarctions... the MI rate did no change in the two nearby communities that did not have a smoking ban... Dr. Sargent urged publicizing the findings "so that people understand that second hand smoke has an immediate effect on heart disease." Tobacco smoke in the air can trigger immediate changes in platelet aggregation and vasoconstriction. A few hours of smoke exposure also can increase the risk of arrhythmias."

--presented by Richard P Sargent, MD, at the annual meeting of the American College of Cardiology, reported (quotes from) Internal Medicine News, 5/1/03.
--Ian
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LeeDarrow
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Re: Needs of the Many, Wants of the Few (?)

Post by LeeDarrow »

IJ wrote:Suppose there was a cult that liked to wear crystals as necklaces. It's part of their religion--or maybe it's just fun. In any case, they happen to like radioactive ones. And that means that they, if they choose to wear their crystals long term, have a 1/3 chance of dying from damage to nearby heart, lungs, or cancer developing, although many people use them with no ill effects. It's also hazardous to their born or unborn kids and costs a lot to take care of them, but they die sooner so it may save $ in the long run. Should we let them wear their necklaces in most public places (maybe they also give off a stinky gas) if that public use also led to a couple thousand deaths among the noncrystal set every day (a very very low percentage)?

Why, or why not?

Then ask yourself if you'd ban smoking in bars and restaurants, because that's where boston is as of a few days ago. The difference is only that the cigs are more common than the radioactive crystals--in fact, the latter don't exist just yet. Figured I'd make something up in the off chance someone would visit the topic with a fresh start rather than triggering previously held viewpoints.

Freedom of radioactive crystal, or public safety?
Once upon a time there were wonderful wristwatches that glowed in the dark without the use of batteries. They glowed because the paint on the hands and numbers was made from radium, a radioactive substance. The watches were very popular.

Then, they were banned.

Not because of a rsik to the public health. Heaven forbid! They were banned because of the proven damages done to the workers who PAINTER the radium on the watches by hand.

You see, to get a good, sharp point on their brushes, they woule put them between their lips and twirl the sable, insuring a good, clean, sharp point, which they needed because the numbers and the tips of the watch hands were SMALL!

Moving to the radioactive crystal analogy, the same issue would probably apply. The material is dangerous to work with and, when there is a proven health hazard in the workplace that can be eliminated, it often is.

Add the fact that product safety issues are much more stringent now than at any time in our history, these puppies would not make it to market in all probability. Carcinogens of that nature are NOT well thought of by liability lawyers, who would advise their companies to come up with something else, frankly.

Not to mention that Homeland Security would not let someone wearing a rad source anywhere NEAR an aircraft! ;)

As to cigarettes, well, that fight is still going on. California has banned smoking in all restaurants and bars now and one town has enacted a regulation that, to smoke on a public street, you must be actively going somewhere - eliminating the clouds around building entrances and exits, supposedly.

Draconian, frankly, IMHO.

The smoking issue is going on - and will continue until someone sets a decent set of rules that everyone can live with.

Being a nonsmoker who works in a LOT of smoking venues, I would welcome the relief, but am pretty sure that it will be a long time coming, if at all.

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

...and then there's this, just in from the Massachusetts State Senate, which approved a bill to Ban Smoking Statewide

Gene
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Don Rearic
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Re: Needs of the Many, Wants of the Few (?)

Post by Don Rearic »

LeeDarrow wrote:
Once upon a time there were wonderful wristwatches that glowed in the dark without the use of batteries. They glowed because the paint on the hands and numbers was made from radium, a radioactive substance. The watches were very popular.

Then, they were banned.

Not because of a rsik to the public health. Heaven forbid! They were banned because of the proven damages done to the workers who PAINTER the radium on the watches by hand...

...Not to mention that Homeland Security would not let someone wearing a rad source anywhere NEAR an aircraft! ;)

I know you were kidding, but just as a point of interest. I own two watches, keep absolutely fantastic time. I thought that you might find it interesting how they got over the problem that you cited.

They use tritium now, but it is not painted on, the tritium is placed in very small, sealed containers. (I know it is for most applications, I don't think it is painted on at all.)

Stockard & Yale do this with MilSpec Lensatic Compasses. That same company is also involved with Luminox, who make the watches I wear, I think the people who own Luminox have Stockard & Yale do the tritium work because they have been doing it with compasses since the Vietnam War.

Overseas, Traser makes the same watch, so Luminox is apparently an American Trade Name for that company.

Likewise, for years, self-illuminated, tritium night sights have been made for firearms as well, same technology, sealed containers of tritium.

The watches that I wear cannot be imported into Canada. I joke with my Canadian friends, "Don't feel bad that you cannot own some of the firearms I have, feel bad because you cannot own a really good timepiece because of the bedwetters..." :)

I have no idea if they would turn me away from the border if I tried to visit Canada because my watch is on a No-Import List or something, but they would not be taking it, I'd go home, screw those trolls. I know a Police Officer in Canada who wants one for work, he cannot even have one imported. I never asked him if they have OK'd tritium night sights for their handguns, etc.

But as far as getting on a plane, I have no idea if they would give you grief, but I know many people with Trasers and Luminox watches who have flown with zero problems. Even if it is enough to peg some meter they would use, it's still a watch and not something nasty.
As to cigarettes, well, that fight is still going on. California has banned smoking in all restaurants and bars now and one town has enacted a regulation that, to smoke on a public street, you must be actively going somewhere - eliminating the clouds around building entrances and exits, supposedly.

Draconian, frankly, IMHO.
There are non-smoking areas where standing (running) vehicles are allowed to spew venom out. It's nonsense to me. It is more about desensitizing the public to further restrictions on every aspect of their life, more than about anything else.

The public versus private property rights and whatnot is an interesting debate...I think someone who own private property should be allowed to run it as they so choose as long as a legal product is being used, and cigarettes are still legal, and I think if you like the food or atmosphere there, you have to tolerate that or find food somewhere else that you enjoy. I don't think your right to *want* Joe Smuckatelli's World Famous Roast Beef Sammiches™ trumps Joe Smuckatelli's private property rights WHATSOEVER. You don't have a *right* to demand Joe Smuckatelli stop smoking in his establishment simply because you think Joe Smuckatelli makes the most wonderful roast beef sandwich you have ever had and you want to eat there.

Now, if good ole' Joe Smuckatelli has the right to run his establishment as he sees fit, he will soon find out one thing or another. People will either come to his place of business because he allows smoking and they like his sandwiches, or they will go elsewhere no matter how great his sandwiches are and his business will suffer. If smokers are in a minority, why is everyone so concerned about this sort of thing? Let a "Joe Smuckatelli" have his way and this person you consider to be obnoxious and uncaring will soon be out of business anyway, right?
The smoking issue is going on - and will continue until someone sets a decent set of rules that everyone can live with.
The anti-smoking side is not going to be happy until it is banned entirely, even in your own home.

But, look on the bright side, then we can have teenagers killing each other in the streets over who gets to sell Marlboros, Kools, Salems and Winstons on what street corner, then, the same people that caused the problem can blame guns and knives some more.
Stultorum infinitus est numerus
ljr
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Post by ljr »

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/f ... ty_levels/

Ireland is thinking of taxing fatty food... how long before that happens in the US?
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