Oops!!

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:10 pm

The charges have been dropped against 2 National Guardsmen who engaged in a friendly fire incident that resulted in the death of 4 Canadians.

'Friendly fire' trial for 2 U.S. pilots rejected

Of note is the following.

It is sure to create more controversy in a case that has strained U.S.-Canada relations and sparked a debate over the use of Air Force-issued "go pills," amphetamines to help pilots stay alert. Defense lawyers suggested the pills clouded the pilots' judgment.

There is perception...

A poll after the incident on April 17, 2002, near Kandahar found that 84% of Canadians wanted a trial, and most wanted U.S. compensation for the victims' families. They were offended that President Bush waited two days to apologize.

...and the reality of combat (whatever that is).

Schmidt, who dropped a laser-guided bomb on a Canadian unit training at night, blamed the "fog of war."

Interesting...

- Bill

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:28 pm

If Canadian troops caused the death of U.S. troops the issue of a trail would not exist. The U.S. is lucky enough to be the biggest kid on the top of the hill and gets to make up the rules as they go along.

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:59 pm

Karateka wrote: The U.S. is lucky enough to be the biggest kid on the top of the hill and gets to make up the rules as they go along.

At the risk of being flamed for being "unamerican" and told to "move to Canada"...along with the "America: Love it or Leave it" refrain...

It's our government down here and by no means the U.S. entirely. Plenty of us are getting beaten up by the Bully Boys too, on everything from education to medical care and well beyond. The latest push has gotten to where many people and publications are being (self?)censored by public pressure or suffering the wrath of public denouncement by the people holding the reins. That's sudden death in a capitalist country during our current economic climate....Which is why Y'all don't hear about those of us that don't like the status quo and want to change it. But some, like me, will just always refuse to shut up and continue to speak our minds...It's the American Way.

Le'

"Politics is opposed to morality, as philosophy to naïveté." ~~Emmanuel Levinas

P.S.: You're right.. If it was Canada who had killed US soldiers in the current political climate, there wouldn't have been any questions. Bush would have ordered the bombing of Toronto within hours.

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:18 pm

And I would support him!

Rich

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:06 am

People died in an unfortunate incident and the intent was not to kill allies, lets move on.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:36 am

RACastanet wrote:And I would support him!

Good on you marine! We of course would have to kill all the yankee invaders and burn Washington again.

(something to consider, if you invade we will in require you to take all the people in leftist Quebec with you when you leave.)

Not to worry Dana we will give you lots of warning. Hell maybe we can just send a few wardens down to do a controlled burn of the capital. You would have nothing at all to worry about then. Those guys have been trying to burn the forest around my town for 3 months and they have not done any damage yet.

Rich, the military personel in this country have no problem with friendly fire incidents. Hell we kill our own in training from time to time as well. I'm pleased that those highly trained reserve pilots have been cleared. This investigation has put them through some hell. It always cheeses me off when people who served their country are treated poorly as a result of their efforts. Politics and the press are a bad combination that are found in bed too often with terrible results. I'm glad the US military stood by these men.

Something I'm sure military planners grapple with is the friendly fire incidents. Tough on moral, tough to take out your own. The US military machine is 2nd to non. They now engage in a very high tech war, and have achieved remarkable results with minimal lost of man power. But in the last three middle eastern conflicts the US military has killed more of there own men than the enemy. The US Military has also killed more allied forces than the enemy.

This is tough for the public to swallow, the liberal anti war press has made it a large issue in many regions. No one is talking about the body count with out these high tech systems.No one is telling the public that these freindly fire incidents are a cost of war. No one is telling the public this is a cheap cost. No one spelling out how many deaths would occur without this technology. The public doesn't realize these friendly fire deaths are actually a reducution in body count.

The US military needs to invest more efforts in their PR machine. If they don't more service men will fall prey to politics and the liberal media.

As far as you folks down south attacking Toronto, I don't expect it will happen over a friendly fire incident.

Laird

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:16 am

If the U.S. did invade they would take us quicker then Iraq

. I read in a mag a couple of months ago that Canada would be a territory of the U.S. in 50 years. They wouldn't want us as a state, it would cost too much, but as a territory they would have control over our natural recourses without the headache of governing.

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:27 am

Good posts gentlemen.

Regards, Rich

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:30 am

Yeah, you can't judge military action in civvy terms.
No way those guys would have dropped a bomb if they even THOUGHT the target was friendly.
It was a mistake, like it or not.
You start requiring military to get a direct order from 1IC before taking any action and we'll all be speaking (fill in the language).
They're on the front lines, we're not.
Case closed for this Canuck.

NM

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:07 pm

If it turns out that the "go-pills" had something to do with clouding the judgment of the U.S. troops that caused the deaths then blame should perhaps be shifted to the commanding officers.

Think about it, if U.S. troops were killed it wouldn't be an issue at all, Bush would press for action to be taken.

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:15 pm

Karateka wrote: If it turns out that the "go-pills" had something to do with clouding the judgment of the U.S. troops that caused the deaths then blame should perhaps be shifted to the commanding officers.

Think about it, if U.S. troops were killed it wouldn't be an issue at all, Bush would press for action to be taken.

This was my sarcastic point...

I keep forgetting Y'all can't tell "tone" from my typing. I agree 100% here though. I think the U.S. MILITARY should pay damages to the families and that those "prescribing" the speed to the pilots should be charged.

It's a sick policy when plenty of studies are out there to show how the drugs affect people in a negative way when not for a legitimate medical condition. Teach the kids to "Just say no" to street drugs and all their evils....then send them off to the military and FORCE Them to TAKE the Same Drugs???

Someone want to explain the logic here? Because it's totally irrational to me.

Le'

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:48 pm

Far be it for me to blunt a lively discussion. However, we can't leave an inaccuracy hanging.

Think about it, if U.S. troops were killed it wouldn't be an issue at all, Bush would press for action to be taken.

Since the Iraqi regime fell, the U.S. has lost an average of a soldier a day. Only one out of three were killed by enemy fire. There are no special commisions. There's no brouhaha in the press.

If you're going to whack Bush, do so with style and accuracy. This is a protest safe zone, but you need to back up any statements made. As long as you are friends with the facts, I'll watch your back.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:55 pm

It's a sick policy when plenty of studies are out there to show how the drugs affect people in a negative way when not for a legitimate medical condition. Teach the kids to "Just say no" to street drugs and all their evils....then send them off to the military and FORCE Them to TAKE the Same Drugs??? Someone want to explain the logic here? Because it's totally irrational to me.

LeAnn

This is a worthy topic of discussion from several angles.

The reason why pilots are taking "go pills" (amphetamines) is because of the lack of nearby bases from which to launch their sorties. There have been some missions where the pilots have needed to be in the air (from beginning to end) for a full 24 hour day. Not taking the amphetamines means risking loss of life, an expensive plane, and perhaps more mistakes (a debatable statement).

At this point in time, only pilots on these obscenely long missions are authorized to use amphetamines.

Is this safe? Does this cause more or fewer mistakes? Does this impair judgement? Does it cause more or fewer friendly fire incidents?

Remember, many "drugs" have appropriate (legal) and inappropriate (illegal) uses. Oxycontin is a classic example. Amphetamines have been prescribed for weight loss for many years, as well as used as asthma bronchodilators. There's nothing wrong with the drug per se. The issue is appropriate use. I think you understand this, but I want to make it clear.

- Bill

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:19 pm

Bill,

Yes, there are appropriate uses for amphetamines. Being ADHD and having two severely ADHD children, I have been prescribed them for years as have my children. High amounts of caffine puts us to sleep. I am told that me and my children without the medications have the similar experience as those "normal" people on these drugs.

If that is true, I know what those pilots on drugs are like: scattered, disoriented, sometimes raging or emotional roller coastering, wired and bouncing off the walls to the point of nearly irrational thought processes. Sleep deprivation doesn't get helped by it....just makes you all of these things even MORE intensely, including irrational. I've seen my son fight the sleep deprivation, wound up, and still not being able to sleep without meds many times. That is just his ADHD meds having worn off or having forgotten them that day....He gets worse and worse. Addrenaline added to that???

It's a good reason to keep weapons away from someone. I can't imagine how it helps. This isn't even looking at what the guys are like getting back to their families and now being junkies without a fix. Anyone else wondering why there is an increasing incidence of guys coming back and murdering their families? There has been some speculation about the drugs in that too if I remember correctly.

Bottom Line: The military needs to figure out another way. Just my opinion.

Le'

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:20 pm

If it was Canada who had killed US soldiers in the current political climate, there wouldn't have been any questions. Bush would have ordered the bombing of Toronto within hours.

Just as an FYI: During Desert Storm there was a group of U.S. soldiers killed by "friendly fire". Those on the trigger happened to be non-U.S. allies (British). It was chaulked up as a tragic event that happens during war. Bush (sr) never ordered bombers to London. Given that information, I have to disagree with these types of statements.

Oops!!

Oops!!

A good soldiers follows orders!