How to win friends and influence people (NOT)

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:25 pm

quote
"You, of course, are free to disagree with his decisions on this manner. But to state that my country 'supported' any terrorists in N. Ireland - with the implication that we armed, trained or otherwise abetted them "

Well. What about NORAID?

Quote
"
And only when the British adopt a Constitutional provision that says "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust", like we do here, and allow a Catholic or a Jew or a Muslim to ascend to the throne, will I allow a Brit to lecture me on religious tolerance. Not that you are, of course. But just for fair warning."

As you say I didn't lecture you

.......Religions are notoriously intolerant

.......however, The Monarch is also the head of the Church Of England, and so must be a Protestant

......having said that, Our Constitution is " Our" concern not yours.
And whilst on the subject of religious freedom, that is up to the people of the country concerned and not the US.......if the Afghans want a Muslim state what the hell has it got to do with the US?

newguy · Post by **newguy** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:49 pm

jorvik wrote:quote
"You, of course, are free to disagree with his decisions on this manner. But to state that my country 'supported' any terrorists in N. Ireland - with the implication that we armed, trained or otherwise abetted them "

Well. What about NORAID?

What about NORAID? Are you contending that NORAID is an arm of the U.S. Gov't?

Britain has a sizable Islamic population, some of whom actively support the terrorism. Shall I then, because of the actions of private citizens, make a blanket statement that Britain supports terrorism against my country?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:57 pm

jorvik wrote:: .......Religions are notoriously intolerant .......however, The Monarch is also the head of the Church Of England, and so must be a Protestant ......having said that, Our Constitution is " Our" concern not yours.
And whilst on the subject of religious freedom, that is up to the people of the country concerned and not the US.......if the Afghans want a Muslim state what the hell has it got to do with the US?

Hmmmmmmm? Seems like a double standard to me Jorvick. Back in the 1600's you Englishmen on behalf of your religous leader "threw down the borders". After the border clans were defeated the hangings began. A significant number of Elliott males were hung.Of those who survived this murder over half were deported to Ireland with their families. Your monarch and head of the church of England had decided to solve the Catholic problems in Ireland by importing Protestants from Scotland. She was not too concerned about how either party felt about her idea. My family lived in Ireland as unwelcomed guests for two centuries. In 1820 we "Ulster Scotts" moved to Canada. I find it hypocritical of you to take the US to task over trying to influence the events in other countries given the track record of your nation.

Now you sugest that your constitution and church are your own affair and of no concern of others....but given my clans treatment and the religous intolerance extended to Ireland by the church of England I'd suggest just the opposite. Small wonder England could not resolve the problems in Ireland, England was a big part of the problem for centuries.

Thank God Americans got involved and brought some peace and order too the land.

Last time I checked England was involved in Afganistan and Iraq. So I suggest you take your own advice Jorvick and not trouble yourself in the business of other nations but focus your political energies at home.

Laird

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:52 pm

laird,
I didn't live in the 1600's and don't count myself responsible for what happened then

.......I mean that would be ridiculous as would calling myself a Scott when my family has lived in England for 50 years or more

......although the name is linked to the royal Stewart.....you as A Canadian are obviously aware of this absurdity

so don't talk rubbish........
Our constitution is our own affair...how could it be otherwise, I don't seek to control; Canada or the Us or for that matter Afganistan..if they wish to be Islamic fundamentalists, then so be it .....it is not your concern or mine.
And this Business of " Thank God America got involved.....What is this Spurious nonsense

.....y'mean like Vietnam

Lets put it another way " Thank God ( Or Allah) that Al Qaeda got involved......these folks really don't like interferance from the US or Canada......or Scotland ( by the way Laird,,,,,,what part of Scotland do you come from?)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:46 am

Jorvick my people lived in Liddesdale .

Yes thank God for America otherwise your country would be speaking German today. But I guess that was over 50 years ago so it doesn't mater.

Hey Mate are you over 50?

Laird

Yes I know don't feed them!

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:27 am

Its not a battle of countrys its a battle of cultures England is still responsible for its culture it created , Im Scots heritage too , we fled and a re now third generation kiwis , but that scottish cultural aspect still is passed down , we remember english freedom

.

England is just as big a part of this as America , Iraq is turning into a mess , New Zealanders were there when the UN building came down .... its a battle of cultures we`re over there to de-mine , I dont even think its a battle of religons any more . Its just to damn complicated , I wouldnt touch any of it with a ten foot pole , ignorance and hatred all the way round , religon is once again a tool for both . Its all about how the powerfull generate power .

Afghanistan and Iraq were all opression thats there culture like it or not

Opression = Tyranny

Our democracys unfortunatley often tend to corruption our culture is capitalisim which leads to corruption

Im gonna have to choose corruption over tyranny , at least we have the chance to fight against corruption .

Osama and Saddam thought they were pretty important , they used there cultures of fear or hatred or whatever to make themselves feel pretty damn important , Im guessing thy felt it right up till when the first missiles struck , I wont miss em at all and am gratefull the US and UK taught them that lesson .

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:29 am

In all fairness, I was not accusing Jorvic of admonishing us on religious tolerance at all. And nor do I hold him or modern day Britain responsible for the crimes against humanity it may have committed in the past. That blame lies elsewhere.

And we can start an entire thread regarding Britain's chances vs. Die Fuhrer and their successes and defeats in the years before the Yankees got involved in the war.

But if anyone is going to lecture me, personally, on religious tolerance, they need to make sure their own house is in order first.

The British constitutional documents being a subject only for Britains? Completely correct. But when a religious test is required for office holders in Britain, then it puts Britain in a position of inferiority when talking about religious liberty.

'Tis not to say that Britain is all bad, since the Balfour Declaration set the stage for the modern nation of Isreal. But where Catholics were being oppressed in Northeren Ireland, year in and year out, up until recent times, and no non-Anglican can become ruling monarch....

Gene

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:42 am

To those who believe the US overthrew Iraq for free oil please consider this:

On september 11, 2001 our world as we knew it was shaken on its foundation. 3000 innocent lives were taken.. and for what? A group of American hating Mother F@#ckers wanted to inflict pain on us.

What on Gods' green earth did did those folks do to deserve this? What point was made? What did they expect us to do? Did they not know we are the last remaining superpower on earth, and we would inflict pain on them?

So where do we find our enemy? hmmm.. the midddle east maybee? Yes. Afgahnastan(sp).... Al Queda training grounds, home of Osama. Is there a lot of oil there? Well yeah... so f#$cking what! There was a big lesson to be learned and that was, support our enemies and we will knock your ass back into the stone age.

Why did we invade Iraq? Well... Saddam had kicked UN weapons inspectors out of Iraq for one.(By the way Bill Clinton should have had some balls between his legs when that happened, and done something to get them back in) Years later GW Bush got them back into Iraq.. but there was a little problem. Iraq was sending the inspectors on wild goose chases. Why? Were they hiding something? What if they were developing something to give to Al Queda? Imagine an Alqueda operative(like they deserve the title operative) with a nuclear weapon!

Our frog eating "friends" from France sure as hell wouldn't have lost any lives to an attack on US soil.They the Russians and the Germans had a significant amount of Euros and Rubles invested into Iraq as well. No wonder they didn't support an overthrow of Saddam. So I guess I can see how to some it was possibly about oil. Well let me say Not To This American! It was about removing threats to our national security. It was about protecting our freedom... even the freedom of that Muslum poster in California who obviously has no appreciation.. or at least LOYALTY for the US, and may I add is more than welcome to go live in a muslim country and enjoy their freedoms, and sense of fairness. How could it be about oil when we are "pissing away" so much money on this military effort?

The world is a safer place today. Al Queda is still bombing people yes, but they are hunted like the animals they are, and they know their time is short.

I admit there is a big mess right now in Iraq. This thread started with a posting about a recent attack on the UN building. That attack is a perfect example of just how maniacle and stupid the enemy is... I think that was the original posters point. Well, then enemy needs to be removed. Saddly this is what it takes.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:35 pm

Ben if it was all about oil as some indicate it would have been a waste of time to invade Iraq. Canada has far more oil and gas reserves than most middle eastern countries.Just would be more cost effective to invade next door and get more return for your investment.

Seeing Canada remains free I would suggest that The US wasn't looking for free oil in the middle east. Why spend billions when you can get it for millions. It's not about oil folks.

Laird

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:41 pm

Laird,

Very good point about Canadas vast oil supplies... to be honest that thought has never occurred to me

Do you hunt? The name Ugly Elk makes me think you do. I am eagerly awaiting Deer season here in the Mountains of Virginia... the camo is on sale at Wal Mart.. I can't wait. It's definitely a Zen experience to sit in the quiet woods and listen for a deer to come your way. I've never killed anything but that doesnt' matter.

Ben

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:49 pm

I've come to realise that I don't express myself very well on the internet

( maybe I should go to the verbal self defence forum)
The points which I feel that I am making .....quite frankly I'm not.....and I am causing offence when I don't intend to

.
In responce to Bill's original post....and no offence intended I strongly disagree...the attack on the UN sent out a message to certain folks that was very positive.....I've tried to make analogies to other situations...to compare.if you like, and opened up a whole other box of worms (or snakes)
My point is that I don't understand the viewpoint or the motivations of the people who attacked the UN, nor do I understand the people who did 9/11...but I think that they have achieved what they wanted to.....You can't just kill these folks because they are prepared to die.....religious intolerance....our ethnicity are different subjects......I am more Celt than anything else so the responces that you get from me will be more Irish or Scott, than English( Genetically I mean

.......Celts are fighters and " Drinkers"

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:56 pm

Benzocaine,

Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Where are the chemical nerve gas artillery shells? Where are the dirty nuclear bombs, ready for infiltration into the US? Where are the terrorirst camps, training scores upon scores of extremist elements to attack US interests and citizens, both here and abroad?

Where was the threat to US freedom?

Missouri, please.

Day by day, the reasons for this war become less and less clear.

The world a safer place today? In certain respects, yes. But then why is the US #4 on the list of possible terrorist targets, where we hadn't made the list that high before?

Gene

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:55 pm

Gene

Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Where are the chemical nerve gas artillery shells? Where are the dirty nuclear bombs, ready for infiltration into the US? Where are the terrorirst camps, training scores upon scores of extremist elements to attack US interests and citizens, both here and abroad?

Where was the threat to US freedom?

Sadam had a lot of time to hide them while we tried to placate our frog eating buddies. Why didn't Sadam allow the inspectors to stay? Why the wild goose chases? Who's to say the dirty bombs ect. are't already in the hands of some other lunatic?

I hope you are right and I am wrong. God knows the terror/ destruction Al Queda could do with just a VIAL full of anthrax. South Shore Hospital sure couldn't handle the amount of sickness it could inflict... neither Mass General or N.E.M.C..

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:12 pm

Gene DeMambro wrote: But then why is the US #4 on the list of possible terrorist targets, where we hadn't made the list that high before?

Only #4? I expected you to be at least #2 by now.

BTW were do the terrorists post these lists? I'd like to take a peek at one. I suspect the US has risen on the list because the terrorists kind a resent being hunted in places like Afganistan and Iraq. I don't have any data to back up that assertion.

It's kind of like my believing that a 16 ton truck would come out on top in a colision with a Honda Hybrid. I have no proof just a hunch.

I think one way to reduce the risk of being so high on the terrorists list is to kill more terrorists.No data on that either. Live terrorists actively work towards taking out their targets. Many terrorists take out their targets as they die. They haven't been to sucessful striking from the grave.Dead terrorists don't work off any list.

Laird

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:39 pm

Do you hunt?

haven't for many years but hoping to get out for an elk or moose this fall.

The name Ugly Elk makes me think you do.

Actually my internet handle commemorates the cow elk that attempted to trample my three year old son to death about 5 years ago.He was about 10 feet from our door at the time.

I am eagerly awaiting Deer season here in the Mountains of Virginia... the camo is on sale at Wal Mart.. I can't wait. It's definitely a Zen experience to sit in the quiet woods and listen for a deer to come your way.

I too long for the bush. I grew up in a trapping family and have a very deep conection to the land. Doesn't matter if your carrying a weapon or not, getting back to the bush is good for our soul. I try to spend a day or two in the mountains when things get crazy no matter what the season.

I've never killed anything but that doesnt' matter.

Probably doesn't , but helps to connect one with their food supply. I grew up on venison out of mason jars…..eating venison reminds me of childhood and family…..

Good luck on your hunt Ben, hope you get blood all over the new gear.

Laird

How to win friends and influence people (NOT)

My Humble opinion