How to win friends and influence people (NOT)

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Deep Sea
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Post by Deep Sea »

Where are the weapons of mass destruction?
It's an awfully big dessert as well as friendly neighboring countries. Recently found was a cache of modern fighting aircraft, one the west has never seen before, buried in the desert and only discovered by a tip-off.

I suspect those exist or did exist when we first wanted to go into Iraq but the UN stalling bought SH time to destroy/move/hide whatever he had.

I support our troops fully, but they need to get out of there before much more time goes by.

Oh, where's the Red Guard, most of the army, the Air Force? Didn't they meld in with the local surroundings? Can the same be possible with other things we are looking for???

I don't know and I'm holding back by opinions, but as I reevaluate the situation what is beginning to emerge in my thinking is that a major reason we are in Iraq is because of vengeance, to settle a score for someone else.

Maybe, and maybe not, but I'm not casting any judgment, at least for the time being.

The democrats are doing their homework and if there is anything that can be dug up to prove the reason we are in Iraq is less than honorable, they will find it. But then again, you have to decide for yourself if THEY are telling the truth or not.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Hi Laird,

Here's an article titled Index ranks U.S. as likely terrorist target in 2004 that encompasses some of the information I used in a previous post. The information comes from private group that evaluates threats to multinational companies and governments. The information didn't come from any terrorist list that I'm aware of, but you'll be the first to know if I find out something closer to the terrorist source comes up....

Gene
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

It keeps being asserted that Saddam might have shipped the WMDs to another friendly country, or otherwise hid or destroed them.

But Colin Powell, when testifying in front the UN Security Council, stated that we know what SH has, how much, and where it is. When asked for photographic or other evidence, he stated that to release such evidence would "compromise" US intelligence operations (such as spies and informants) and "tip off" the other side to the types of surveillance methods used by the US.

Now it's time for King George II to put up, and so far he's coming up gooseggs on the WMDs. In fact, he and some members of his administration have admitted to lying in support of his position.

And the UN inspectors weren't expelled from Iraq this time around. They were ordered out by Kofi Annan in advance of the US invasion. Read for yourself here U.N. to withdraw Iraq inspectors. If anyone has information to the contrary, I'd be happy for the enlightenment.

Allen,

Yes, I did hear about the planes. But news reports from multiples sources say that most of the planes were Soviet, Cold-War era planes, bought before 1991. And according to Brigadier Steve Meekin from the Australian army, commander of the JCMEC (the survey group that found and uncovered the planes) in Iraq-Today "None of these aircraft would have stood a chance against modern US or UK fighters in the war so it seems the Iraqi air force didn't t [sic] want to waste them in combat". If Iraq had some type of "Superfighter", that hasn't been made public yet.

The questions still remain: Where are the WMDs? Where are the nuclear, chemical or biological weapons?

Until those questions can be answered, then it appears more and more that the Second Iraq War was based on a tremendous amount of fear, a certain amount of wishful thinking, but not enough fact.

Benzocaine,

Very few US hospitals are completely prepared for a masive biological attack that the US government says might happen. But the mobilization of the regional healthcare systems after the anthrax-mail attacks, as well as the rapid deployment of "push packages" into NYC in the hours after 9-11 occurred gives me great hope, as well as certain swell of pride. And did you know that MGH went on "disater" footing on 9-11, prepared to take trauma cases from the overloaded NY hospitals? And don't count SSH out, either. They have the second busiest ER in Eastern Massachusetts, and have run disater protocols for over 10 years. This all gives me great hope, and certain sell of pride. I truly am lucky to live in a state where such great medical care is, literally, footsteps away.

Gene
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Post by Guest »

Thanks for the link Gene......there is a list.

Laird :microwave:
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Deep Sea
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Post by Deep Sea »

The questions still remain: Where are the WMDs? Where are the nuclear, chemical or biological weapons?
Frankly I don't care if they exist do or not. I stated my reasons why I thought we went in there.

Now it's time to get out.
"None of these aircraft would have stood a chance against modern US or UK fighters in the war
But then again, that's only one find., and it is a find which suggests ways in which other weapons may exist snd be hidden.

I'm not defending anyone rather SH was a very clever person and to come up perfectly empty of anything smells bad, that's all.
so it seems the Iraqi air force didn't t [sic] want to waste them in combat".
That's funny because I thought the airforce was chicken, remembering back to the Gulf War when many flew to Iran to avoid the US.

Iraq could be logically divided into at least three countries and maybe that's the direction that would be most beneficial.

So we go into a country with a quarter million servicement against a rag-tag opponent. I'm thinking maybe this was just an advanced version of a war game to help prepare readiness, etc. in the case of war with DPRK or China.

What is one big lesson learned? We can overtake and conquer a country unable to defend itself. That doesn't show anything about our capabilities against a worthy opponent.

If we don't fine WMD, and I suspect we never will, then I will have a very difficult time supporting an invasion of eitherof the two aforementioned countries who have the wherewithall to inflict substantial casualties and possibly even win a conflict against the US.

Iraq HAS BEEN good combat practice for American troops, but now the enemy knows much better how we fight and are planning to be more affectice accordingly.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
benzocaine
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Gene

Post by benzocaine »

Gene
Very few US hospitals are completely prepared for a masive biological attack that the US government says might happen. But the mobilization of the regional healthcare systems after the anthrax-mail attacks, as well as the rapid deployment of "push packages" into NYC in the hours after 9-11 occurred gives me great hope, as well as certain swell of pride. And did you know that MGH went on "disater" footing on 9-11, prepared to take trauma cases from the overloaded NY hospitals? And don't count SSH out, either. They have the second busiest ER in Eastern Massachusetts, and have run disater protocols for over 10 years. This all gives me great hope, and certain sell of pride. I truly am lucky to live in a state where such great medical care is, literally, footsteps away.
No doubt MA has the best. I trained in Boston... also trained in SSH. My point was not to demean the best hospitals in the world (no offense UVA guys). I was trying to drive home the concept of what a tiny little ,easily concealed bottle of anthrax spores could do.
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Laird

Post by benzocaine »

Laird
Actually my internet handle commemorates the cow elk that attempted to trample my three year old son to death about 5 years ago.He was about 10 feet from our door at the time

Wow! I hope he wasn't hurt.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"But Colin Powell, when testifying in front the UN Security Council, stated that we know what SH has, how much, and where it is. When asked for photographic or other evidence, he stated that to release such evidence would "compromise" US intelligence operations (such as spies and informants) and "tip off" the other side to the types of surveillance methods used by the US."

Surely he has already compromised these people by just saying that....If there are wmd ( which I seriously doubt) then somebody knows were they are :?
I am sure that this whole buisness is about oil.....you don't start a war to settle old scores, and it wasn't because SH didn't listen to the UN...the UN didn't want this war either.
In the papers over here the US has been all but blamed for not protecting the UN building ( This was copied from European papers)
In my country Blair is regarded as a discredited liar ( I actually voted for him :evil: )....I can't wait for the next election...this little sh*t can have his place in history as someone who supported a war because he thought it would keep him in power and give him a chance at the presidencey of Europe.
It can only get worse...three of our soldiers killed today :cry: ......they can't protect the oil, or the pipeline......geographically it is all in favour of the terrorists,the IRA were hard to fight but this is ten times worse.......at least they spoke English, the temperature was bearable...half of the population were on your side....none of that here .and no problem finding weapons.....you'll never find a WMD.....but I reckon that Kalashnikovs are ten a penny
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

In responce to Bill's original post....and no offence intended I strongly disagree...the attack on the UN sent out a message to certain folks that was very positive
I am baffled, jorvik. Where do you have the evidence that killing innocent civilians - many of who were engaged in the act of putting post "Palace Sadaam" Iraq back together again? I cannot think of anything positive. I need data. Please supply.

I however have two thoughts for you, jorvik. The first is a quote which is part of a fairly long dissertation on why bombing civilian populations fails to cause the intended effect (as was postulated by psychological experts before WWII).
Prior to World War II, psycholgists and military theoreticians such as Douhet predicted that mass bombings of cities would create the same degree of psychological trauma seen on the battlefield in World War I. During World War I the probability of a soldier becoming a psychiatric casualty was greater than that of his being killed by enemy fire. As a result of this, authorities envisioned vast numbers of "Gibbering lunatics" being driven from their cities by a rain of bombs. Among civilians the impact was projected to be even worse than that seen in combat. When the horror of war touched women, children and the elderly, rather than trained and carefully selected soldiers, the psychological impact was sure to be too great, and even more civilians than soldiers were expected to snap.

This body of theory, establishd by Douhet and later echoed by many other authorities, played a key role in establishing the theoretical foundation for the German attempt to bomb Britain into submission at the beginning of World War II and the subsequent Allied attempt to do the same to Germany.

...

And yet, incredibly, the incidence of psychiatric casualties among these individuals was very similar to that of peacetime. There were no incidents of mass psychiatric casualties. The Rand Corporation study of the psychological impact of air raids, published in 1949, found that there was only a very slight increase in the "more or less long-term" psychological disorders as compared with peacetime rates. And those that did appear seemed to "occur primarily among already predisposed persons." Indeed, bombing seemed to have served primarily to harden the hearts and empower the killing ability of those who endured it.
- Grossman

Note 1: My own health plan data post 9/11 supports the hypothesis that bombing of civilian populations doesn't lead to mass psychiatric casualties (The hijackers attacked Virginia too. Let us not forget we Virginians who drove past the Pentagon saw this every day, and our economy was hurt as much as any due to the collateral effects of the terrorist actions).

Note 2: Hardening the hearts and empowering the killing ability of those who endured? Is it a coincidence that the U.S. invaded Afghanistan on strong evidence and Iraq on extremely weak evidence after 9/11? And did it without world support in the latter? Hmm???

Note 3: This is why the U.S. has developed TARGETED destructive power heretofore not even conceived of in previous wars - in spite of Sadaam's attempt to hide his pantywaisted army behind the skirts of women and inside the schools of children and inside the mosques where the elderly prayed, etc. And they attacked with the press going along for the ride to prove it. Very, very smart.

So, jorvik, I am still looking for the good it did...

My hypothesis is that those who are killing civilians (UN workers) in Iraq, bombing oil lines, bombing water supply to CIVILIANS, and such are doing so because they don't want an experiment in democracy in Iraq to succeed. They want to demoralize Iraqi civilians, and make them think the Americans ****** and Sadaam was good for Iraq. To create a successful democracy would mean that democracy just might infect the minds of Iranians, Syrians, and Saudi Arabians, and... and... Allah forbid!!! 8O Next thing you know, their Arab teenagers will be listening to rock-and-roll and their daughters will be wanting education and to drive a car!!! :shocked!:

The evidence appears to show that suicide bombings of "soft targets" just may accomplish the opposite of what was intended by those that brainwashed the young boys that carry out the acts! (Gotta have those virgins!!!)

I will accept that the U.S. is not liked abroad. Don't need to be liked or loved - only respected. However al quaeda, the Baath party, and sociopathic European leaders attempting to gain economically at the expense of millions of Iraqi civilians should not be surprised that a big, nasty, ugly SOB is on the warpath. And U.S. troops are now on their "sacred" soil.

- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

How to "harden a heart" and "empower the killing ability" of a nation.


Image


Gosh, that just makes me want to crawl in my hole and be passive.... Submit to national guilt... Thank those that called all those "injustices" to my attention.

My personal opinion is that if you don't understand the emotional impact of that photograph (even and especially on an intellectual level), then you don't know squat about the subject of reality-based self defense.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

People often wondered how a nation like the U.S. could drop an atomic bomb on two entire cities. Wow - what a heartless nation the U.S. was...

How we forget history. During the invasion of Nanking, the Japanese were actually publishing articles about contests between Japanese officers to see who could kill the most (most of them civilians) by beheading in a fixed period of time.

Image

Image

Soldiers were raping women (before killing them) and keeping souvenier photos of their bootie.

Image

These articles, photos, and actions made their way around the world. The killing contests were actually headline news in the Japanese newspapers. When Japan attacked the U.S., the country knew what it was dealing with.

God protect all the souls that perished during WWII, no matter their ethnicity.

So... What causes a sleeping giant to "go postal?" Please do the research; it's out there.

- Bill

Photos courtesy of Alliance for Preserving the Truth of Sino-Japanese War
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Hi Bill.
Please don't misunderstand what I said........As you know I have never supported this war, that doesn't mean that I want to see further bloodshed..just that I try to see it from the Enemies ( If we can call them that) persepective....That is pure " Musashi" to me. I don't pretend to understand the rationale of a Muslim militia man who is prepared to kill himself for a cause. But they are.
check out
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
and the main website
http://www.cursor.org/

this is not the clean sanitized version put out by CNN.....you don't hear about the little girl killed by a speeding American Humvee..but I bet that the Arab world hears it very loudly.
Yesterday in my country 7,000 militant Muslims met at the NEC in Birmingham ( per the Sunday Express)....some of the fighters in Aghanistan were Muslims who had their Homes in Britain ( I can't bring myself to call them British).
There are many,many Pakistanis in my country and other Muslims such as Somali's..and their young are easily led :roll:
It is plain that you can't comprehend their motivations....but that doesn't mean that they will stop just because you don't understand them.
Very few in my country believed the reasons given for the war, very few supported it...the press were vociferous in their condemnation...in a recent poll Blair was voted the most hated man in Britain.
With all the lies I have heard about WMD....now I am starting to question 9/11.....to be honest I don't believe that Al-Qaeda had anything to do with it.
And I am an Englishman, my country is one of the two in this " Coalition"....if this is the way I think then how do you
think an arab will think.....do you think they may feel that the US and the UN ( which let's face it has been shown to be powerless against the US....a joke in fact) are stopping their democratic right to choose Islam over a western style democracy
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Not sure who I am Addressing....Perhaps there is something here for all of us........

Correct me if I am wrong on this one, but the IRA used to give warnings before its terrorists attacks in Northern Ireland. Seems like the reverse of what a terrorist would want to do, alert those that would otherwise be injured or worse.

What were the reasons for the IRA giving warning before their bombings, knowing that such a warning might prevent the bombing in the first place. Of course, by giving a warning, they minimized the amount of civilian casualties and thus getting the press for their cause without the extreme desire for payback.....

I dont want to suggest this is where the Palestinians and others have gone wrong because I am against all forms of terrorist bombings.......

Having said the above, it should be noted that in order to have a good war, it is highly important that both sides be both ignorant about their enemy and full of hatred and disdain......While some of that hatred may be for good reason, it is often indispensible that we hype up the reasons for our hatred. A good dose of stereotyping, a handful of bigotry and some good old fashioned ignorance of how they live and what they value is unparalleled in getting the ok to go to war......
That's funny because I thought the airforce was chicken, remembering back to the Gulf War when many flew to Iran to avoid the US.
.... they are hunted like the animals they are
dehumanizing your enemy is so important to make it easier to kill them and minimize their grievances....They have grieveances (sp?), but their methods of trying to put them out is all wrong....I am not even suggesting that their grievances are 100% on the money, but merely stating that they them and they probably feel ignored (obviously their methods of making people here them is all wrong, totally and completely, I am not supporting them in their methodology).......


I wonder what they used to say about the continental army during much of the revolutionary war. We were too afraid to fight like men on the battlefield, shoulder to shoulder, but instead hid behind rocks and trees.....boy were we cowards back then.....but now that we have the superiority of arms and troops, now we are brave........In truth, we were making use of guerilla tactics, back when it suited our needs, which were quite often termed the tactics of the terrorist (keep in mind that terrorists target civilians and Guerrillas fighters target military targets).

Therefore, now that we understand the difference between a guerrilla fighter and a terrorist, perhaps we can be more successful as we label the cause of the violence in Iraq. The UN explosion? Terrorism, no questions. Tis wrong and they are guilty. Go get em. Hunt em down and try them in a court of law, or kill them if you cant successfully apprehend them.

Now, what do we do about the guerrilla fighters that are so active in Iraq. They go after military targets and as such as real guerrillas. We have been calling them terrorists, although we now know them to be otherwise.

I made some reference to the perceptions that Iraqis or some have about the US, with regard to the willingness to support democracy throughout the world. It is important to note that perceptions do not always reflect reality, but are merely perceptions. Like the perception so many Americans have about how horrible the religion of Islam is.

Some wacko names Osama may be able to lead a bunch of ignorant, illiterate Muslims to their death, offering this or that salvation that is NOT in the Holy Quran, but let me be clear, that does not mean the Quran supports terrorism, that only means that Osama the Wack job thinks it does....

Read the Quran and show me where it says we are given any number of virgins for killing innnocent and civilians.........

Now perhaps if the US was more willing to foster education throughout the world, maybe Osama the wacko would have far fewer illiterates he could mislead. By the by, Saudi Arabia (15 of the 19 9/11 hikackers were from this country not Iraq) is supporting education throuhgout the world, with your petro dollars, but they are supporting their firey brand of Islam and it is against me as much as it is against you.

Also, on a final note. For those of you who are not quite sure who to hate and who to invade, it should be known that Osama, in arabic, is a name like sam or fred. It is not particularly unusual in their culture, so you could very easily meet another Osama in your lifetime, that actually has nothing to do with 9/11 (there was a kid in 4th grade named Osama while I was teaching fifth grade in Sharon, Mass at the Islamic elementary school-I taught mostly secular subjects). Should that Osama be forced to change his name because some really twisted and wacked out dude went off the deep end to the extreme? Know anyone named Adolph? Do we take the names Ted and Timothy out of circulation because these gents were mini wack jobs (unibomber & Murray federal building bomber).......


even the freedom of that Muslim poster in California who obviously has no appreciation.. or at least LOYALTY for the US, and may I add is more than welcome to go live in a muslim country and enjoy their freedoms, and sense of fairness. How could it be about oil when we are "pissing away" so much money on this military effort?
Perhaps the willingness to piss away money has something to do with the fact that we intend to make Iraq our strategic oil reserve. Please see http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=9835 where I have posted an article written by the former Energy Secretray for the Reagan Administration. Interestingly, this article came out just as we were about to invade Iraq. Also quite interesting is how we blame OPEC for our oil dependence, rather than doing something constructive to become independent of their energy suppiles, we blame the energy haves for making us dependent........

and who do you blame for the fact that our gas prices have shot up through the roof yet again under the Bush administration. I thought sound economic policy would dictate stable energy prices and supplies, while we seem to be getting higly unstable and unpredictable prices and supplies....Thank God we deregulated the one thing that our economy really requires, affordable and consistent supplies of energy.......

I have waited along time for this one. And here it is, the, why dont you leave if you hate it so much then argument? Who said I hate it here? Nobody. Who said I had no appreciation? Doesn't matter, one person said it and many others maybe thought it, but held back saying it.....It is not a totally unreasonable question if stated in a reasonable manner........I have stated many a time that while the countries in which most Muslims live are not democratic, that does not mean they are incapable of being democratic. IN fact, the existence of reasonable and democratic forms of governemnts in these Muslim lands throughout much of History attests to the fact that they can exist. In Physics, we find that we can do all kinds of fine measurements to determine the exact location of some really small particles, but find that shining light on really small particles has great effects on those super tiny particles....Similarly, we have just ended over two hundred years of colonization plus fifty years of cold war brutalism. We were more than willing to put dictators in place throuhgout the Muslim and non-Muslim world, subverting whatever pre-existing attempts at democracy they already had. While many can be convinced through extensive propaganda that Islam is incompatible with democratic goals, I for one, see that as the lie that it was intended to be. Islam has little or no democratic form of government anywhere in the world. THat is not however, proof, that Islam is incompatible with democracy since Islam has had viable democratic and tolerant societies over the course of history. To say Islam is inconsistent with democratic ideals is from ignorance of Islam and/or a desire to slander and otherwise put a bad name to one of the world's largest groups of people. Make your slanderous remarks now, cuz you wont be able to when the PC police finsally get on our bandwagon.......see, when I was a kid in America, you could slander just about anybody with impunity......but, heck, what happened to our good ole country? you cant make fun of Jews, gays, blacks, the Irish or the poles......Slandering women is pretty unfashionable, except on certain forums, but the one form of slander still universally acceptable to all is (sarcasm intended).....you guessed it....Islam.....and Msulims (who cant spell).....and anything remotely related to these people, their culture, their religion or their way of life (so much fun to make jokes about camel jokeys, ragheads, # of virgins waiting for me in heaven, and I cant even remember them all they are so creative)....... Islam is very useful becuase in this day and age when you cant make fun of anybody, here comes the one group that everyone is still willing and able to make fun of .......




Perhaps it appears as if I have no appreciation of our great country because I dare to mention the things I find wrong here. If you really love your country, you shut up and never say a bad word. That is how they do things in Singapore. Is that how you want your country to be, such that you are not allowed to question the policies of your government; in fact, anything short of complete agreement ought to land you in jail for charges of high treason. Is that the kind of country that you want to live in, one in which patriotism is forced down peoples throats rather than welling out of people's hearts from a true love of country, one that says that I love this country despite it faults, despite its wrinkles, despite its penchant for frivolous lawsuits and crumbling infrastructure. Despite the fact that there exist many things about this country that I would like to see improved, I still love my country and want to see it improved.......While I may agree that this is the best to live in the world, a few of my friends on the other side of the globe (or that long border between us and those waiting to invade us-canadian bacon humor-you might not get it) may enjoy where they live, too......

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Peace, Blessings & Mercies on those who Believe and do Good Deeds (it is not enough to just believe, actions speak louder than words)[/quote]
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Amen, Akil! I am proud to call you a brother.

It's obvious to me that you "get it."

- Bill
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Post by benzocaine »

Akil-
have waited along time for this one. And here it is, the, why dont you leave if you hate it so much then argument? Who said I hate it here? Nobody. Who said I had no appreciation? Doesn't matter, one person said it and many others maybe thought it, but held back saying it.....It is not a totally unreasonable question if stated in a reasonable manner........

Well...you spout on and on about how corrupt and unfair the US government is. It protects its own doesn't it? What would you want it to do? How can we make things right with these lunatics? We can't. Since we can't I say do what we can to eradicate them.
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