May I suggest that if anyone has an issue with the postings of another that they appeal to Bill directly? It's his forum, and moderates it as he sees fit.
Bill, can regular forum members direct others to edit their postings, or otherwsie direct them to not post off-topic? Just wondering as to the applicable rules on this board.
Gene
Why did Johnny kill?
Moderator: Available
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Stryke
Ian I get your points , were getting a little closer to understanding , I dont beleive all child molesters should be executed , but I beleive all of them should be punished , the case in point of the preist its an extreme case , I kind of beleive in karma , two scumbags both got bit on the ass by it . Im not going to loose sleep if these folks never see another day .
Your right about the few weeks thing , but this is law weve got , my logic says enforce it or change it , the second anyone thinks individuals have the right to interpret and judge better than the system then we give permission for all sorts of wackos to do the same .
There are all kinds of sick people out there we all know it , many that could justify mounstrous acts and define it rationally to themselves as a positive and a good ... I just hate to think we encourage any hope for these people by bending the law here or there .
The 18 year old with a seventeen year old , yup youve got a point , In New Zealand legal age is 16 , sounds more reasonable to me , an adult is 18 , this gives two years le way for that sort of relationship , seems more reasonable to me , but youve got to live to your own rules/laws . A twenty year old an a seventeen year old .. well its a bit further apart , those few years can make a world of difference at that age , I want the law to err towards caution
anyway good thread guys and difficult topic
Your right about the few weeks thing , but this is law weve got , my logic says enforce it or change it , the second anyone thinks individuals have the right to interpret and judge better than the system then we give permission for all sorts of wackos to do the same .
There are all kinds of sick people out there we all know it , many that could justify mounstrous acts and define it rationally to themselves as a positive and a good ... I just hate to think we encourage any hope for these people by bending the law here or there .
The 18 year old with a seventeen year old , yup youve got a point , In New Zealand legal age is 16 , sounds more reasonable to me , an adult is 18 , this gives two years le way for that sort of relationship , seems more reasonable to me , but youve got to live to your own rules/laws . A twenty year old an a seventeen year old .. well its a bit further apart , those few years can make a world of difference at that age , I want the law to err towards caution
anyway good thread guys and difficult topic
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Guest
Bill sorry if i'm out of line.....when some one pees on my corn flakes I let them know.
Thought it was best to deal with public insults personaly.
Let me know if i'm out of line....
If you would rather judicate....I'll respect that by vacating your forum.
Ian choose to label me in public I fiqure I should call him in public.
Good point Gene next time I'll check with the moderator........
But I can request or demand what ever I wish.....The other party gets to decide how they wish to respond. If there response is to not retract the insults then I can do nothing about it. And if the moderator doesn't like my approach he can bar me as can the owner of the page.
Your point of order however will not resolve the issue will it Gene, you have not been insulted,your nose belongs elsewhere sir this is a personal matter. You are correct Bill gets final say on this page. He does not however have the responsiblitity for fighting my battles or protecting the honour of my name.
Ian has posted something that I believes labels me as a criminal, a vigalante operating outside of the the law. So Ian can retract his statement or Bill can rule personal insults are fair play and we will throw the rule book out the window. Won't that be fun.
I for one would welcome a level playing field. The jury is out if I'll see one or not. Place your bet people.
Laird
Thought it was best to deal with public insults personaly.
Let me know if i'm out of line....
If you would rather judicate....I'll respect that by vacating your forum.
Ian choose to label me in public I fiqure I should call him in public.
Good point Gene next time I'll check with the moderator........
But I can request or demand what ever I wish.....The other party gets to decide how they wish to respond. If there response is to not retract the insults then I can do nothing about it. And if the moderator doesn't like my approach he can bar me as can the owner of the page.
Your point of order however will not resolve the issue will it Gene, you have not been insulted,your nose belongs elsewhere sir this is a personal matter. You are correct Bill gets final say on this page. He does not however have the responsiblitity for fighting my battles or protecting the honour of my name.
Ian has posted something that I believes labels me as a criminal, a vigalante operating outside of the the law. So Ian can retract his statement or Bill can rule personal insults are fair play and we will throw the rule book out the window. Won't that be fun.
I for one would welcome a level playing field. The jury is out if I'll see one or not. Place your bet people.Laird
Last edited by Guest on Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Still here, as I haven't gone for a walk inasmuch as other people haven't either. Mr. Assisatant Moderator? Do I now gain entry into the restricted "Moderator's Home"? Is there a secret handshake or something? I must ask George-Sensei...
Chemistry of food and connective tissue? Actually, I was kind of hoping someone would post a topic on the recent discovery on how spiders and silkworms make silk, and the recent discovery of the genetics of honeybees and how they reproduce. Fascinating stuff.
And Laird, you have NO IDEA how big actually my Roman nose is... roamin' all over my face
!
But it's pretty rich posting a pissing contest in public, and then telling people to butt out....
At least I got a good laugh.
Gene
Chemistry of food and connective tissue? Actually, I was kind of hoping someone would post a topic on the recent discovery on how spiders and silkworms make silk, and the recent discovery of the genetics of honeybees and how they reproduce. Fascinating stuff.
And Laird, you have NO IDEA how big actually my Roman nose is... roamin' all over my face
!But it's pretty rich posting a pissing contest in public, and then telling people to butt out....
At least I got a good laugh.
Gene
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Guest
That it is.Gene DeMambro wrote:C Actually, I was kind of hoping someone would post a topic on the recent discovery on how spiders and silkworms make silk, and the recent discovery of the genetics of honeybees and how they reproduce. Fascinating stuff.
please feel free to post it where ever and when ever you wish......we will let the moderator decide if it is appropriate or not. He likes science he might just recommend a seperate post/All I know is it's in my face GeneAnd Laird, you have NO IDEA how big actually my Roman nose is... roamin' all over my face
You responded to to my angry post before I could delete it. I'm not looking for a flame war here. I've been insulted in public and I'llexplore it in public. I've got no problems with you.....and none with Ian if he amends his slanderous words. I've not executed anyone I've past judgement on yet.But it's pretty rich posting a pissing contest in public, and then telling people to butt out.
I just kind of figuire if someone has the courage to insult me publicly, they best have the courage to appolgise publicly as well. Sorry to waste space on the forums with this folks....but I want people to stand behind their statements.
Don't worry ,I'll not continue with this,I've given the man a chance to change his position......If he does fine.....if he doesn't ......fine.....reap what you sow and stand behind your words......just want to offer an olive branch.
Then it's all been worth it, I'm glad to provide you with some entertainmentAt least I got a good laugh.
Laird
<Jumps up on his soap box, but leaves any flamethrowers alone while doing so>
Set rant mode to "ON"
I had no idea that Attention Defecit Disorder was a psychosis that interfered with the ability to tell right from wrong. That's the working (and as I understand it, the test) definition of competency in an insanity plea. I'll double check with Student to make sure, though. My copy of the DVM-IV (tr), the Diagnostics & Statistics Manual, used to define various psychological conditions for diagnostic and legal purposes, shows it to be nothing of the kind.
HOWEVER - it IS wrong, he admitted that he knew it was wrong (according to the papers) and that's that.
Gene-Sensei, we are in complete agreement that ALL sides in this one seem to have missed the boat - the Church for not acting more effectively in getting the former priest therapy and help (not to mention the same for the victims) and for not removing him from a position of authority more quickly. The justice system, for not dealing with the mental issues as well as the criminal ones. And the correctional system for not doing the same and for supposedly dropping this guy into the general population of their facility. Not to mention that they missed the guy who whacked him and his serious mental problems as well.
Whether predatory pedophiles should be killed outright or should be neutered or put through some sort of rehabilitation program has been debated for years.
According to a preliminary report by, I believe, the Department of Justice, the recidivism rate among predatory pedophiles is very high, well above 50% and, IIRC more like 80% or 90% even after long term therapy and medication. Not good numbers for an argument for rehab, IMHO.
Regardless of the current state of mental health care in the correctional system (which is bloody near nonexistent), based on that report, it probably would not have helped on one side of this equation.
With regard to the nutcase (a clinical term for a fixated psychotic) who whacked the defrocked priest, without more info on his state and attitudes, any guess at the possible effects of counselling having been able to prevent his murderous action would be little more than a guess on almost anyone's part.
This case does point out several serious problems that society has to deal with in an affirmative and fairly immediate way:
1) Shame and reluctance to report pedophilic activities, especially when such acts are perpetrated by authority figures.
2) A direct and serious overhauling of the mental health system, both within and outside of the correctional system.
3) Improved availability of mental health interventive services to the public at large - most health insurances only allow for a few thousand dollars of mental health service over the life of the policy, and many only allow for very short visits (30 minutes OR LESS) to a psychiatrist or psychologist and disallow visits with an MSW/ACSW - and THEY do over 80% of all psychotherapy in the US these days (source, NIMH). And don't even consider any alternative therapies, like hypnotherapy, unless you are VERY lucky to have a policy that includes them - and even then, you usually have to have a referral from a psychiatrist of psychologist before coverage will kick in.
4) Removal of the stigmatization of those who seek mental health services. For centuries, someone who sought help for coping issues would be considered somehow morally or spiritually "tainted, sick, unwell, contagious and dangerous." As has been proven, only a small number of mental health issues create a real and present danger to the sufferer and to others.
5) Improvement in the legal and correctional systems with regards to handling convicted predatory pedophiles, keeping them out of prison general populations, insuring their safety while inside and, perhaps, a re-thinking of the punishment system FOR such offenders.
Without these changes, cases like this will happen again and again, as will cases like the one here in the Chicago area only a few days ago.
If we are truly warriors, then let's take up this fight. The opponent is more dangerous, more deceitful and more pervasive than any street gang or mafia and the rewards are greater in terms of lives saved - not just from psychotic attacks, but from the suffering so many other disorders of a psychological or psychophysical nature can cause.
<steps off his soapbox and bows in apology for the length of his rant>
Set rant mode to: "OFF"
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
Set rant mode to "ON"
I had no idea that Attention Defecit Disorder was a psychosis that interfered with the ability to tell right from wrong. That's the working (and as I understand it, the test) definition of competency in an insanity plea. I'll double check with Student to make sure, though. My copy of the DVM-IV (tr), the Diagnostics & Statistics Manual, used to define various psychological conditions for diagnostic and legal purposes, shows it to be nothing of the kind.
HOWEVER - it IS wrong, he admitted that he knew it was wrong (according to the papers) and that's that.
Gene-Sensei, we are in complete agreement that ALL sides in this one seem to have missed the boat - the Church for not acting more effectively in getting the former priest therapy and help (not to mention the same for the victims) and for not removing him from a position of authority more quickly. The justice system, for not dealing with the mental issues as well as the criminal ones. And the correctional system for not doing the same and for supposedly dropping this guy into the general population of their facility. Not to mention that they missed the guy who whacked him and his serious mental problems as well.
Whether predatory pedophiles should be killed outright or should be neutered or put through some sort of rehabilitation program has been debated for years.
According to a preliminary report by, I believe, the Department of Justice, the recidivism rate among predatory pedophiles is very high, well above 50% and, IIRC more like 80% or 90% even after long term therapy and medication. Not good numbers for an argument for rehab, IMHO.
Regardless of the current state of mental health care in the correctional system (which is bloody near nonexistent), based on that report, it probably would not have helped on one side of this equation.
With regard to the nutcase (a clinical term for a fixated psychotic) who whacked the defrocked priest, without more info on his state and attitudes, any guess at the possible effects of counselling having been able to prevent his murderous action would be little more than a guess on almost anyone's part.
This case does point out several serious problems that society has to deal with in an affirmative and fairly immediate way:
1) Shame and reluctance to report pedophilic activities, especially when such acts are perpetrated by authority figures.
2) A direct and serious overhauling of the mental health system, both within and outside of the correctional system.
3) Improved availability of mental health interventive services to the public at large - most health insurances only allow for a few thousand dollars of mental health service over the life of the policy, and many only allow for very short visits (30 minutes OR LESS) to a psychiatrist or psychologist and disallow visits with an MSW/ACSW - and THEY do over 80% of all psychotherapy in the US these days (source, NIMH). And don't even consider any alternative therapies, like hypnotherapy, unless you are VERY lucky to have a policy that includes them - and even then, you usually have to have a referral from a psychiatrist of psychologist before coverage will kick in.
4) Removal of the stigmatization of those who seek mental health services. For centuries, someone who sought help for coping issues would be considered somehow morally or spiritually "tainted, sick, unwell, contagious and dangerous." As has been proven, only a small number of mental health issues create a real and present danger to the sufferer and to others.
5) Improvement in the legal and correctional systems with regards to handling convicted predatory pedophiles, keeping them out of prison general populations, insuring their safety while inside and, perhaps, a re-thinking of the punishment system FOR such offenders.
Without these changes, cases like this will happen again and again, as will cases like the one here in the Chicago area only a few days ago.
If we are truly warriors, then let's take up this fight. The opponent is more dangerous, more deceitful and more pervasive than any street gang or mafia and the rewards are greater in terms of lives saved - not just from psychotic attacks, but from the suffering so many other disorders of a psychological or psychophysical nature can cause.
<steps off his soapbox and bows in apology for the length of his rant>
Set rant mode to: "OFF"
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
Uglyelk, I'll re-post when I have time and try to address your concerns. I don't believe in removing errors in my posts because I like to leave my mistakes out there to remind me to watch my mouth, but I certainly believe in addressing what I say elsewhere. We tend not to agree on anything online but I'm sure we could get along in person. Neither of us like child molesters, we just differ on some details. My intention was not to offend. More details later after the morning work, but my first post while not directly on topic was appropriate at the time because it was addressing a very frequent subtext to this type of discussion--I see no reason to continue on the line it raised tho as that would be off topic.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You know... It's a real pain in the arse having to edit what is and isn't appropriate in this thread. Since it appears all have had a chance to blow steam off, and the alleged instigator stated it wasn't his intention to offend, let's call it even.
Why can't we all get along, like my friend Van and I?
It is appropriate to stay on topic.
It is not appropriate to attack.
I do like for people to watch my back when I'm not around, but... Cover my back and you may get return fire.
*****... The intent was for a guest in my house to suggest decorum to another guest. Let's leave it at that. Please don't break the furniture; it's a pain in the arse to go to the dump for more.
It is occasionally appropriate to wander a bit, especially since this whole Geoghan thing is a Gordian knot. I asked for a few boundaries, and so let's stick within them.
This is an emotional topic. I disagree with TSDguy on a few things related to statutory rape, but I want his opinion expressed. I am not God, and we all learn more when our mouths are shut and ears open. Thanks, TSDguy.
Same should be said for operating inside the boundaries of the law vs. studying what REALLY happens in life. That is indeed a repeating theme here, no? This will result in passionate discussions. GOOD! Maybe we'll learn something.
- Bill
Why can't we all get along, like my friend Van and I?
It is appropriate to stay on topic.
It is not appropriate to attack.
I do like for people to watch my back when I'm not around, but... Cover my back and you may get return fire.
*****... The intent was for a guest in my house to suggest decorum to another guest. Let's leave it at that. Please don't break the furniture; it's a pain in the arse to go to the dump for more.It is occasionally appropriate to wander a bit, especially since this whole Geoghan thing is a Gordian knot. I asked for a few boundaries, and so let's stick within them.
This is an emotional topic. I disagree with TSDguy on a few things related to statutory rape, but I want his opinion expressed. I am not God, and we all learn more when our mouths are shut and ears open. Thanks, TSDguy.
Same should be said for operating inside the boundaries of the law vs. studying what REALLY happens in life. That is indeed a repeating theme here, no? This will result in passionate discussions. GOOD! Maybe we'll learn something.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Lee
First, I would like to state that your rant was completely on topic. Very enlightening.
Second, you wrote:
1) We must all remember that whenever spending on healthcare exceeds the growth of the GDP, then we have problems. More availability of services means more costs. That's fine but... We already have double digit inflation in health care costs during a recession and a near deflationary economy. Since our health care system is largely employer based, they will only pay for so much. Otherwise they will not be able to compete in the global economy.
It's even more complicated than that but... The bottom line is that you get what you pay for - whether it be from socialized medicine or the U.S. brand of employer-based healthcare.
2) The mental health community has its work cut out for it. Freudian psychoanalysis went out the window because the evidence in the literature suggests that modern pharmacology and/or simple behavioral therapy works just as well or better - but for a fraction of the cost.
Of course there is that one percent that will always account for a quarter of the total consumed resources (sort of a law of nature, consistent with Pareto's principle). These really sick people need something. Unfortunately nobody's been able to show that any program for a Geoghan works, short of locking him up and denying him access to his little boys. Apparently even castration doesn't stop some of them. Until someone can come up with peer-reviewed evidence that various interventions work, health plans aren't going to pay for it. Time for the psychology researchers to get off their a$$es and do their homework on both the therapy and research front. Society is desperate.
But perhaps our resources are poorly spent. Wasn't it Ben Franklin that said a stitch in time saves nine? Surely we as a society can get more creative.
- Bill
First, I would like to state that your rant was completely on topic. Very enlightening.
Second, you wrote:
As someone who works for a big, bad health insurance company, I would like to challenge you with two thoughts:3) Improved availability of mental health interventive services to the public at large - most health insurances only allow for a few thousand dollars of mental health service over the life of the policy, and many only allow for very short visits (30 minutes OR LESS) to a psychiatrist or psychologist and disallow visits with an MSW/ACSW - and THEY do over 80% of all psychotherapy in the US these days (source, NIMH). And don't even consider any alternative therapies, like hypnotherapy, unless you are VERY lucky to have a policy that includes them - and even then, you usually have to have a referral from a psychiatrist of psychologist before coverage will kick in.
1) We must all remember that whenever spending on healthcare exceeds the growth of the GDP, then we have problems. More availability of services means more costs. That's fine but... We already have double digit inflation in health care costs during a recession and a near deflationary economy. Since our health care system is largely employer based, they will only pay for so much. Otherwise they will not be able to compete in the global economy.
It's even more complicated than that but... The bottom line is that you get what you pay for - whether it be from socialized medicine or the U.S. brand of employer-based healthcare.
2) The mental health community has its work cut out for it. Freudian psychoanalysis went out the window because the evidence in the literature suggests that modern pharmacology and/or simple behavioral therapy works just as well or better - but for a fraction of the cost.
Of course there is that one percent that will always account for a quarter of the total consumed resources (sort of a law of nature, consistent with Pareto's principle). These really sick people need something. Unfortunately nobody's been able to show that any program for a Geoghan works, short of locking him up and denying him access to his little boys. Apparently even castration doesn't stop some of them. Until someone can come up with peer-reviewed evidence that various interventions work, health plans aren't going to pay for it. Time for the psychology researchers to get off their a$$es and do their homework on both the therapy and research front. Society is desperate.
But perhaps our resources are poorly spent. Wasn't it Ben Franklin that said a stitch in time saves nine? Surely we as a society can get more creative.
- Bill
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
"Why did Johnny kill?"
As we discuss whether or not Geoghan would have been helped by ANY type of therapy, please rememeber that he was the victim of a murder in prison. He wasn't the "Johnny" who killed. It was the other guy. ANy discussion about mental health care's place in preventing crimes and modifying behavior must include Druce as well. A question I have is whether the constant shifting of psychiatric care to "outpatient" treatment options fail this man, before he murdered?
This may a bit tangental, but as an insurance company insider, Bill, what steps would you advocate for improving mental health care delivery and getting maximum value from out mental health care dollar? Just curious.
And please keep in mind any possible "culpability" on the part of the prison and the DOC...
Gene
As we discuss whether or not Geoghan would have been helped by ANY type of therapy, please rememeber that he was the victim of a murder in prison. He wasn't the "Johnny" who killed. It was the other guy. ANy discussion about mental health care's place in preventing crimes and modifying behavior must include Druce as well. A question I have is whether the constant shifting of psychiatric care to "outpatient" treatment options fail this man, before he murdered?
This may a bit tangental, but as an insurance company insider, Bill, what steps would you advocate for improving mental health care delivery and getting maximum value from out mental health care dollar? Just curious.
And please keep in mind any possible "culpability" on the part of the prison and the DOC...
Gene
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Gene
I must confess quite a bit of ignorance here. And I feel I am not alone. There is much to be desired, but no evidence that throwing more money at it (today) will make things better.
With horrible inflation in the cost of health insurance (due to aging population, improvements in medicine, increasing number of mandates, customers' resistance to "rationing" and such), there's only so much money that can be saved for the mental health care piece of the pie.
Inpatient mental health care is very expensive. It should be saved for the psychotic, schizophrenic, and others with known serious maladies. Sadly there are more than you realize.
Depression, ADHD and such are fashionable diseases, and get a lot of health care dollars for meds. Drip, drip, drip... All those drops from all those millions on antidepressives add up. (BTW, we see this the most in government workers.) It's sad, sort of like watching people waste money on antibiotics for colds or a host of diseases because they eat too much. A little exercise, a little fresh air, a better diet, a more tolerant, patient society... Save the meds for serious depression.
In general our goal as a health plan is to keep people out of inpatient care as much as possible, because it's expensive and they use up maximum lifetime benefits before you know it. And... It isn't better than good outpatient care - for most.
The trick is identifying those that really need help. And with the stitch in time theme... We could go a lot farther seeing kids raised in happy, 2 parent homes instead of treating all their maladies after having grown up in miserable existences.
I also think we've done a lot in life to recognize the mental and physical domains, but don't really appreciate the value of the spiritual domain. I'm not necessarily talking religion. That works... But there are other ways of getting people in touch with themselves, like martial arts, yoga, meditation, fishing, etc.
I agree with Lee on the alternative therapy thing. I'd like to see more studies on the use of hypnotherapy and other means of changing behavior. But again, it's important to stick with evidence-based methods. Spend your money where it gets the best return.
I think we've about had enough of drug companies identifying diseases that we didn't know we had... I think people have a god-given right to be wierd. Vive la difference!
Perhaps our education system - in conjunction with modern psychological research - can do more to identify childhood behavior patterns that lead to adult pathologies.
The REALLY big frontier here - even beyond modern pharmacology - is the genome project. You ain't seen nothing yet! We've given too little credence to nature's contribution here. That will change.
- Bill
I must confess quite a bit of ignorance here. And I feel I am not alone. There is much to be desired, but no evidence that throwing more money at it (today) will make things better.
With horrible inflation in the cost of health insurance (due to aging population, improvements in medicine, increasing number of mandates, customers' resistance to "rationing" and such), there's only so much money that can be saved for the mental health care piece of the pie.
Inpatient mental health care is very expensive. It should be saved for the psychotic, schizophrenic, and others with known serious maladies. Sadly there are more than you realize.
Depression, ADHD and such are fashionable diseases, and get a lot of health care dollars for meds. Drip, drip, drip... All those drops from all those millions on antidepressives add up. (BTW, we see this the most in government workers.) It's sad, sort of like watching people waste money on antibiotics for colds or a host of diseases because they eat too much. A little exercise, a little fresh air, a better diet, a more tolerant, patient society... Save the meds for serious depression.
In general our goal as a health plan is to keep people out of inpatient care as much as possible, because it's expensive and they use up maximum lifetime benefits before you know it. And... It isn't better than good outpatient care - for most.
The trick is identifying those that really need help. And with the stitch in time theme... We could go a lot farther seeing kids raised in happy, 2 parent homes instead of treating all their maladies after having grown up in miserable existences.
I also think we've done a lot in life to recognize the mental and physical domains, but don't really appreciate the value of the spiritual domain. I'm not necessarily talking religion. That works... But there are other ways of getting people in touch with themselves, like martial arts, yoga, meditation, fishing, etc.
I agree with Lee on the alternative therapy thing. I'd like to see more studies on the use of hypnotherapy and other means of changing behavior. But again, it's important to stick with evidence-based methods. Spend your money where it gets the best return.
I think we've about had enough of drug companies identifying diseases that we didn't know we had...
I think people have a god-given right to be wierd. Vive la difference!Perhaps our education system - in conjunction with modern psychological research - can do more to identify childhood behavior patterns that lead to adult pathologies.
The REALLY big frontier here - even beyond modern pharmacology - is the genome project. You ain't seen nothing yet! We've given too little credence to nature's contribution here. That will change.
- Bill
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
"The trick is identifying those that really need help."
Getytign back on track: Knowing what has been publicly disclosed about Druce, in his youth (or at elast up until he committed his first murder), do you think he would have been one of those that really needed help?
My point is not to be pollyannish about this, but perhaps to put forth the proposition that with appropriate mentalm health care, which may have included long-term institutionalization when appropriate, these murders may not have happened.
Think happy thoughts this weekend....
Gene
Getytign back on track: Knowing what has been publicly disclosed about Druce, in his youth (or at elast up until he committed his first murder), do you think he would have been one of those that really needed help?
My point is not to be pollyannish about this, but perhaps to put forth the proposition that with appropriate mentalm health care, which may have included long-term institutionalization when appropriate, these murders may not have happened.
Think happy thoughts this weekend....
Gene
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
Gene in Reference to "Jonny"
Sad.
I can almost understand how Jonnys mind got so twisted. Add a trauma like being molested by a man (and living with the guilt and shame it could cause)to an underlying genetic disposition towards mental illness .. it makes perfect sense that Jonny could end up like He did.There are now unconfirmed reports that he himself was molested when he was a youth, but I didn't catch the details as to who was accused in that instance. He also held deep animus towards homosexuals, was "afraid" of Geoghan (exactly what threat an elderly defrocked priest posed is not known) and wanted to "'to save'" children who had been sexually abused and voiced regret about the trauma 'they will continue to live with.'", according to The Boston Globe.
Sad.
Uglyelk, when I had time, I went back thru the thread and past posts to make a reply. My comment that you had a "policy" on vigilantism was based on your prior support for people taking things into their own hands. As for slander, I found lots of stuff to bring up, but none of it would have moved the thread or the forum forward. So if you want my reply, PM me for it and let's leave this discussion off this thread from here on out.
Is far as the thread is concerned, one of my fellow medical students back in 1998 recalled that when he was 16, he met a 30-something year old woman he ended up having a 3 year relationship with. Had only fond memories of it and looked on it as a learning experience the way many people consider their early relationships. Yet other children who have sex with adults are scarred by the experience; some become molesters themselves, develop stubstance habits and live screwed up lives in other ways (I recall the 13 yr old eighth grade student who gave birth at UVA when I was on pediatrics--father was 25--yuck). Why do people think they have such different outcomes? Is it that some of these encounters involve force, others involved coercion and manipulation, some mere assent and some involve genuine consent (getting back to my point that a 17 yr olds drive cars 80 miles an hour and consent to major surgeries all the time, both of which can be more serious than being sexual with someone older, especially if the contact doesn't lead to illness or unplanned pregnancy)?
Is the gender of primary importance? Boys were the primary targets of the molesting priests (left underreported was data on the large number of girls molested by ministers or priests in various religious groups) and many were scarred... is it harder to be an abused boy? Or is it merely bigger news because girls are more often abused? And what of Greece--boys were basically offered to older men and while I haven't read an account of the practice from the "victims" standpoint, it didn't seem to be a destabilizing force in their society (anyone know differently?)
Lastly the facilitators of Geoghan's crimes are still uncharged with any crimes and still enjoy the perks of their positions. It isn't unlike the TV thief who ends up doing hard time in prison subject to all kinds of violence and limited futures while the white collar criminals who never had to steal TVs because they're making millions bankrupting companies, destroying retirement funds and collecting stock options and severance packages sit pretty, protected by their pals in government. What's to be done about THAT? IS there something we can do? Or should we all just do as we're told, keep watching COPS, and remain convinced that our neighbors and not the people in charge are the ones most likely to screw us over.
Is far as the thread is concerned, one of my fellow medical students back in 1998 recalled that when he was 16, he met a 30-something year old woman he ended up having a 3 year relationship with. Had only fond memories of it and looked on it as a learning experience the way many people consider their early relationships. Yet other children who have sex with adults are scarred by the experience; some become molesters themselves, develop stubstance habits and live screwed up lives in other ways (I recall the 13 yr old eighth grade student who gave birth at UVA when I was on pediatrics--father was 25--yuck). Why do people think they have such different outcomes? Is it that some of these encounters involve force, others involved coercion and manipulation, some mere assent and some involve genuine consent (getting back to my point that a 17 yr olds drive cars 80 miles an hour and consent to major surgeries all the time, both of which can be more serious than being sexual with someone older, especially if the contact doesn't lead to illness or unplanned pregnancy)?
Is the gender of primary importance? Boys were the primary targets of the molesting priests (left underreported was data on the large number of girls molested by ministers or priests in various religious groups) and many were scarred... is it harder to be an abused boy? Or is it merely bigger news because girls are more often abused? And what of Greece--boys were basically offered to older men and while I haven't read an account of the practice from the "victims" standpoint, it didn't seem to be a destabilizing force in their society (anyone know differently?)
Lastly the facilitators of Geoghan's crimes are still uncharged with any crimes and still enjoy the perks of their positions. It isn't unlike the TV thief who ends up doing hard time in prison subject to all kinds of violence and limited futures while the white collar criminals who never had to steal TVs because they're making millions bankrupting companies, destroying retirement funds and collecting stock options and severance packages sit pretty, protected by their pals in government. What's to be done about THAT? IS there something we can do? Or should we all just do as we're told, keep watching COPS, and remain convinced that our neighbors and not the people in charge are the ones most likely to screw us over.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ian
You bring up some good points.
As for the ancient Greek societies, well we know that the Spartans had a kind of "blessed pedophilia" between master and apprentice. This also existed in the Japanese warrior class. But...do we REALLY know it did no harm? Remember, this was even before Freud and his theories on psychosexual development. And these boys were being trained to engage in rape and pillage behavior. Perhaps the pedophilia was an important part of the indoctrination process. Certainly we frown on the warrior habits of cultures past. In fact, we know that abusing the civilian population in war is the surest way to galvanize the resolve of your enemy. (see Grossman)
One more thing on the subject of young kids having sex. TSDguy wrote...
- Bill
You bring up some good points.
As for the ancient Greek societies, well we know that the Spartans had a kind of "blessed pedophilia" between master and apprentice. This also existed in the Japanese warrior class. But...do we REALLY know it did no harm? Remember, this was even before Freud and his theories on psychosexual development. And these boys were being trained to engage in rape and pillage behavior. Perhaps the pedophilia was an important part of the indoctrination process. Certainly we frown on the warrior habits of cultures past. In fact, we know that abusing the civilian population in war is the surest way to galvanize the resolve of your enemy. (see Grossman)
One more thing on the subject of young kids having sex. TSDguy wrote...
Doesn't count. By anyone's definition, prom time is old enough. By then, an individual is old enough to make mature decisions, and appreciate the responsibilities and potential consequences involved. Happy hunting, I say!A lot of families are just fine with their "kids" having sex; even encourage it because they believe it's natural. I'd bet my arm a lot of people reading this had their parents slip them a condom before going to prom. That's their own decision.
- Bill
