What is the reason why the rear elbow strike is delivered palm-down (forearm bones crossed), rather than palm up (forearm bones parallel) ?
Most "untrained" people instinctively jab their elbow back palm-up. Is this instinct wrong for some reason?
My suspicion is that "palm-down" has something to do with preventing the rise of the shoulder, but that's just a guess.
NM
Rear elbow strike
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
My guess that some reasons the palm faces down (though I know people who do it palm up) is
1) you can drop your hand down after and attack the groin area
2) if you want to turn around like in Dan kumite all you have to do is bring that hand upwards into a "ready position" VS having to bring the elbow upwards plus rotating your wrist around
3)It allows you to go directly into the front elbow strike again using a straight tragectory VS having to rotate the palm again.
Once Sensei Glasheen gets conneccted to the internet again maybee he will elaborate?
1) you can drop your hand down after and attack the groin area
2) if you want to turn around like in Dan kumite all you have to do is bring that hand upwards into a "ready position" VS having to bring the elbow upwards plus rotating your wrist around
3)It allows you to go directly into the front elbow strike again using a straight tragectory VS having to rotate the palm again.
Once Sensei Glasheen gets conneccted to the internet again maybee he will elaborate?
I would agree with Benzocaine on the excellent points he mentioned, but also I would like to add that palm down can facilitate the other hand supporting the strike by holding the wrist so that the two arms create a "bow". and thus increasing the steadiness of the strike preventing glancing issues.
If one were to employ this method palm up, it may be easy to image wrist breakage.
-Two_Skies
If one were to employ this method palm up, it may be easy to image wrist breakage.
-Two_Skies
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jorvik
I personally don't think it matters. I once asked my Sensei if I needed to temper my elbows...he said no, they are strong enough. And they are. I once heard a tale of a Japanese prisoner of war who escaped from a cell by knocking the wall down....he did this by back elbowing into the wall 
.....so they are pretty tough.
The Uechi method does seem to " stretch" the elbow making the contact area a bit more tense.
Some time back I trained on a very heavy bag...I couldn't move it with a punch...but with an elbow I had it swinging like a hammock in a gale.
......also I noticed that if you hook with an elbow and then carry on spinning for another elbow strike, and your Uke backs off you are in perfect alighnment for a spinning back elbow and will contact every time 
......elbow combinations 
.....does anybody practise them?..I do.......... all the time, in close there is nothing better.
.....so they are pretty tough.The Uechi method does seem to " stretch" the elbow making the contact area a bit more tense.
Some time back I trained on a very heavy bag...I couldn't move it with a punch...but with an elbow I had it swinging like a hammock in a gale.
......also I noticed that if you hook with an elbow and then carry on spinning for another elbow strike, and your Uke backs off you are in perfect alighnment for a spinning back elbow and will contact every time ......elbow combinations .....does anybody practise them?..I do.......... all the time, in close there is nothing better.Hello all,
The Muay thai folks do some really funky elbow strikes in addition to the traditional ones.
One in particular involves a vertical "axe" elbow, which basically is exactly what it sounds like: an over-head high to low elbow (check out the movies at www.elbowko.com). It requires a full-body motion, and leaves you pretty vulnerable for a sec, but I've there are some guys that can throw it fast. The only problem with it is that it's hellish for your shoulders.
-Mike
The Muay thai folks do some really funky elbow strikes in addition to the traditional ones.
One in particular involves a vertical "axe" elbow, which basically is exactly what it sounds like: an over-head high to low elbow (check out the movies at www.elbowko.com). It requires a full-body motion, and leaves you pretty vulnerable for a sec, but I've there are some guys that can throw it fast. The only problem with it is that it's hellish for your shoulders.
-Mike
Very interesting!
Ever see that scene in "The Warriors" where a circle of gang members are elbowing down in unison on the victim in the middle? Truly scary.
Stryke: How ya doin?! Do you find any tendency for the shoulder to rise when doing rear elbow strikes palm-up?
Two Skies: In the Uechi style, this rear-elbow strike is NEVER supported by the other hand in any "curriculum" forms I am aware of. It sure could be though. In one of our warmup routines we do a shoulder-level horizontal swinging rear elbow movement where the fist of the elbowing arm is pushed (assisted) by the palm of the opposite hand.
You never know, this could be a "concealed" technique: there are many of them in Uechi Ryu!
My question regarded the straight-back form, but you got me thinking.
Jorvik : I love the elbows too! Especially the forward strikes in all their forms.
Ever do this:?
Punch in with a standard fist, allow the "block" of the opponent to collapse your arm,(if he blocks you inward), then roundhouse elbow to the jaw! Ouch!
I have applied forward elbows to various soft/firm/hard targets, but the rear one I have not.
I have noticed this:
Perform a rear elbow strike, stop at rear extension.
Put your opposite hand on the bicep.
Flip your palm up, you will feel the bicep engage.
Flip palm down, the bicep disengages.
It could be that the palm-down position eliminates the antagonistic action of the bicep, allowing the tricep to fully commit the elbow rearward.
Try that and tell me what you think.
NM
Ever see that scene in "The Warriors" where a circle of gang members are elbowing down in unison on the victim in the middle? Truly scary.
Stryke: How ya doin?! Do you find any tendency for the shoulder to rise when doing rear elbow strikes palm-up?
Two Skies: In the Uechi style, this rear-elbow strike is NEVER supported by the other hand in any "curriculum" forms I am aware of. It sure could be though. In one of our warmup routines we do a shoulder-level horizontal swinging rear elbow movement where the fist of the elbowing arm is pushed (assisted) by the palm of the opposite hand.
You never know, this could be a "concealed" technique: there are many of them in Uechi Ryu!
My question regarded the straight-back form, but you got me thinking.
Jorvik : I love the elbows too! Especially the forward strikes in all their forms.
Ever do this:?
Punch in with a standard fist, allow the "block" of the opponent to collapse your arm,(if he blocks you inward), then roundhouse elbow to the jaw! Ouch!
I have applied forward elbows to various soft/firm/hard targets, but the rear one I have not.
I have noticed this:
Perform a rear elbow strike, stop at rear extension.
Put your opposite hand on the bicep.
Flip your palm up, you will feel the bicep engage.
Flip palm down, the bicep disengages.
It could be that the palm-down position eliminates the antagonistic action of the bicep, allowing the tricep to fully commit the elbow rearward.
Try that and tell me what you think.
NM
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Stryke
I think the Bicep disengaging would be a great reason but muscle control could relax the Bicep much like punching , very intersting 
Have no problem with the shoulder rising , I feel that happens from moving the elbow away from the body not the wrist position , Its logical for Shotokan to do it palm up , its the classic shotokan chamber position
Oh yeah its going well my freind , im trying to get to the gym but have just replyed to three of your very interesting threads , hope lifes treating you well
Have no problem with the shoulder rising , I feel that happens from moving the elbow away from the body not the wrist position , Its logical for Shotokan to do it palm up , its the classic shotokan chamber position
Oh yeah its going well my freind , im trying to get to the gym but have just replyed to three of your very interesting threads
, hope lifes treating you wellThanks Stryke...
Just to split hairs: of course our chamber position for a punch or forward nukite strike is palm-up as well.
But our rear elbow strike is palm down, so that's what got me wondering.
So far, I haven't been able to dial out the bicep when my palm is up; but turning the palm down does it automatically.
The weird thing is: what the heck is holding your forearm up if the bicep is slack?!
We REALLY need Mr. Glasheen to sort that one out!
I'm pursuing this "bicep/tricep" line of reasoning as the most likely logic for keeping the palm down.
I think I'll run this by my Sensei next class.
Hope you got to the gym!
NM
Just to split hairs: of course our chamber position for a punch or forward nukite strike is palm-up as well.
But our rear elbow strike is palm down, so that's what got me wondering.
So far, I haven't been able to dial out the bicep when my palm is up; but turning the palm down does it automatically.
The weird thing is: what the heck is holding your forearm up if the bicep is slack?!
We REALLY need Mr. Glasheen to sort that one out!
I'm pursuing this "bicep/tricep" line of reasoning as the most likely logic for keeping the palm down.
I think I'll run this by my Sensei next class.
Hope you got to the gym!
NM
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
My personal opinion is this...
Having the palm up or down has nothing to do with what you are doing when you do the rear elbow thrust. Rather it has to do with the context in which the technique is executed (before, during, and after). Both work. I consider myself as "potentially" doing an elbow thrust backwards whenever chambering (as in the three seisan shoken thrusts down, where the guy's friend may be jumping your back). I also consider myself as potentially doing an elbow thrust backwards just before doing the forward elbow thrust in seisan. Why? Well when you look at the hojoundo, that's just the way it works out. You go forwards, side, back, then forwards again, side, back, etc. It's just easier to leave your palm down because the next move is gonna be a foward elbow thrust. And that's the ONLY reason - IMO - that we do it that way.
And why do we do the forward elbow thrust the way we do? Well that requires some time to discuss.
Make sense?
- Bill
Having the palm up or down has nothing to do with what you are doing when you do the rear elbow thrust. Rather it has to do with the context in which the technique is executed (before, during, and after). Both work. I consider myself as "potentially" doing an elbow thrust backwards whenever chambering (as in the three seisan shoken thrusts down, where the guy's friend may be jumping your back). I also consider myself as potentially doing an elbow thrust backwards just before doing the forward elbow thrust in seisan. Why? Well when you look at the hojoundo, that's just the way it works out. You go forwards, side, back, then forwards again, side, back, etc. It's just easier to leave your palm down because the next move is gonna be a foward elbow thrust. And that's the ONLY reason - IMO - that we do it that way.
And why do we do the forward elbow thrust the way we do? Well that requires some time to discuss.
Make sense?
- Bill
