I have been reading this thread on canes and sticks for self-defense and as a legal counsel to IUKF, feel that I should say a few words concerning their use.
There are two categories in defining weapons:
1. Those that are classified as dangerous weapons by statute, or promulgated codes as being dangerous per se.
An example would be nunchucks. Under our Massachusetts Dangerous Weapons Statute nunchucks are classified as such and possession of which will land you at least as two year jail term.
2. Implements the use of which by their use, circumstances, and intent would result in a court finding of
not carried or used as a weapon, or if used in an actual situation, would be sufficient to plead self defense.
This is too broad a subject to explain here, but if you read Gene Demambro's post of November 4th of fifth this year, their is an excellent post on weapons. The abbreviated version appears in Van Canna's forum of self-defense.
You can also read this subject on Martial Arts and the Law in these forums where I have posted an actual Massachusetts court decision which discusses the subject in great detail.
Getting back to the cane; I consider this to be an excellent means of carrying an effective weapon which can at least used for self-defense. In our senior population (of which I am a member), their carrying is hardly ever questioned; of course even younger folk can have ailments or disability.
You do not want to carry a cane or stick if embelished with
labels or engraving such as "Combat Cane".
Even if the article such as the cane or stick is employed for self defense, the legal ramifications are such that your words can impose an intention that your intent was to deploy the article as a weapon.
The walking stick or shelliegh are also great for use as a self-defense implement.
Any stick or cane should appear to be solid, or in the case of a nice walking stick, could have horses or bird heads or other metal decorations but cannot just be popped off and used as brass knuckles.
The long walking sticks can be employed much like a bo, and have been around for thousands of years.
Several years ago, a friend of mine, who was an Irish Travel Agent, at my request, brought me back the largest shelleighly he could find. (pronounced "Shell-ay-lee".
It is over two feet long with the one piece handle being thick and strong enough to be used as a light club. This is a light weight form of stick but the wood is hard and has many rough knots which can rip flesh. There also are many variations of this stick, which are usually made for the liking of the user. The stick usually tapers and I have placed a one half inch copper pipe piece on the tip to protect it.
Mr. Darrow had a good post on this subject. Also Mr Halford, I believe, is an expert on Filipino Martial Arts and can give you a lot of information on stick fighting. I always carry pair of Kali (or Arnis) sticks in my car.
In closing, I really believe that most of us would benefit from reading the reported case published in the Martial Arts and the Law forum.
My thanks to sensei Glasheen for the use of this forum.
Alan K
Cane as a weapon?
Moderator: Available
Canes and sticks for self-defense
"The Goddess of Justice is Blind"
Just a quick afterthought on this!
Yes,in some states carrying a weapon or tool implies using it! For isntance, a friend of mine years ago went to California and New Mexico to live and work for a while. He found out, having been a constable among other things in New Hampshire, that carrying a gun on the dash was merely in some instances a misdeamnor because carrying a gun implies you want to defend yourself,but placing a baton,billy club,etc on the dash was a felony! This act of carrying such implied that you were looking for a fight,a battle, and were set to use it. Anyway, I hesitate to recommend carrying even arnis sticks unless they are in a carrying case like pool players do(and you might consider using a pool cue or golf clubs for self-defense,except that here even your hands are tied since using these as weapons, and this includes your shoes also, can get you into trouble,especially if the attacker(s) is unarmed. You might get by with padded sticks as used in some tournaments but even toys and kids equipment can get you into trouble. Especially toy guns or slingshots. I have to add that on Federal Property the carrying of jackknives, bows and arrows, etc. are also prohibited. The total disarming of Americans has began long ago and is still going on in many subtle ways, such as in airports and other public places. When will this end? I think it will not until this country has been completely destroyed in some manner and those who survive take to bearing arms again to stay alive. But that is, of course, a very extreme and not reasoned argument that I am tossing in as a sort of "prediction". I must tell you,however, that when I was under martial law in the Philippines for eight years, I had much more personal freedom there, brandishing nunchukus,etc. and using knives, than I do here. Same goes for getting, for you beer guzzlers, beer nearly any hour of the day or night,etc. Well, that's enough ranting by yours truly, Halford Jones at http://arnis.homestead.com PS: Thanks for the compliments.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The learned posts from the last two gentlemen are much appreciated.
This weapons and the law thing is interesting, and varies state by state. In Virginia, I am fine carrying a gun concealed in most places because I have a permit to do so. But many, many more innocent weapons could get me landed in jail. It's strictly an issue of the battle between advocate/lobbyists vs. the social engineers. Virginia has a well-organized gun lobby, and not much else.
It pays to study your local laws, and use them to your advantage. Every dojo needs a legal expert to help do the background research.
- Bill
This weapons and the law thing is interesting, and varies state by state. In Virginia, I am fine carrying a gun concealed in most places because I have a permit to do so. But many, many more innocent weapons could get me landed in jail. It's strictly an issue of the battle between advocate/lobbyists vs. the social engineers. Virginia has a well-organized gun lobby, and not much else.
It pays to study your local laws, and use them to your advantage. Every dojo needs a legal expert to help do the background research.
- Bill
We all need a panel of experts????!!!!!
Today's society, at least in the US, we are finding that we need a panel of experts, of planners, of advisers,etc. to inform us of our "options" ,our "choices", perhaps even our rights, duties,obligations, and all the risks involved BEFORE WE GET OUT OF BED, MAKE BREAKFAST OR EAT IT SOMEWHERE, AND VENTURE OUT THE DOOR! We need a bevy of tax acdvisers, a pharmacist, a doctor, a tax preparer, a tax consultant, a financial adviser, a personal trainer, etc. etc. etc. ad naseum in order to do anything these days. All for a fee, of course, and which usually consists of what we sometimes knew in the first place: sign at your own risk, eat at your own risk, fly at your own risk,etc. etc. etc. Now we willnot be able to go into a restaurant without being forced to count calories, add vitamins and minerals, and check with our dieticians,etc. etc. etc. Halford
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Mr, Halford,
As a Pharmacist, I ask you explain your apparently negative commentary on today's necessity that regular folk need a panel of experts to participate in the activities of daily living. And that "fee" that we've apparently resigned ourselves to, in many cases, to the educated consumer, goes far.
You've just taken a dispariging opoinion of many honorable people's chosen vocations. Please explain youself.
Gene
As a Pharmacist, I ask you explain your apparently negative commentary on today's necessity that regular folk need a panel of experts to participate in the activities of daily living. And that "fee" that we've apparently resigned ourselves to, in many cases, to the educated consumer, goes far.
You've just taken a dispariging opoinion of many honorable people's chosen vocations. Please explain youself.
Gene
Well said, DeMambro-Sensei!Gene DeMambro wrote:Mr, Halford,
As a Pharmacist, I ask you explain your apparently negative commentary on today's necessity that regular folk need a panel of experts to participate in the activities of daily living. And that "fee" that we've apparently resigned ourselves to, in many cases, to the educated consumer, goes far.
You've just taken a dispariging opoinion of many honorable people's chosen vocations. Please explain youself.
Gene
While I can understand the frustration many people have with the "necessity" of having so many "experts" to advise one on how to do such simple things as pay a parking ticket, there IS such a thing as going a bit too far.
Irony aside, it did seem a bit much.
Also, thanks to Alan K for his kind words about my prior post on this topic.
An added note, evidently Bong Soo Han of Hapkido fame teaches some VERY unpleasant uses for the standard crook-handled walking cane as well. IIRC, there's an example in one of the Billy Jack films, using an umbrella - but it's been a long time and the movie IS Hollywood...!
Kind regards,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.ledarrow.com
Well I have ruffled some feathers it would seem.......
Usually to such comments I say,"If the shoe fits, then wear it" but I think you deserve some reply from on this. When people strongly identify with anything, whether it is a profession, an art, a job, a school, a ball team, or anything, they usually reacte and that it would seem that those in the pharmaceutical profession have done so with my remarks on the modern necessity for a panel of experts to make decisions for us. While it might well seem that I am somewhat and somehow attacking this particular profession, such is not the case if you read it more carefully. What I am talking about is the modern mentality, the mentality that expouses this particular perspective. In fact, perhaps you should consult with your advisors before reading this! Why, because it is not politically correct in some quarters,no doubt, and a lot of bureaucratic nonsense done in the name of these professions cannot be denied. A good example of all this is:consult your tax preparer! Well, advise is often needed by everyone, of course, and each profession can supply advice at times and again, usually for a fee,unless you are clever enough to pick their brains somehow for free! Which is what freeloaders do! It is a fact that the average person cannot read,understand, or fill out tax forms and other forms which are highly complex and so most choose the easy way out, hire someone to do it. These days, we have to hire mechanics to fix our cars because the complexity of them which involves expensive equipment these days is beyond the average Joe's income generally. Gone are the days of most backyard tinkering,etc. So we come to rely on mechanics, electricians, personal trainers, tax preparers, plumbers, carpenters, lawyers, doctors,etc. to do things for us that we cannot do, are unwilling to do, can't understand or are just too lazy in some instances to do for ourselves. I guess what I am saying is simply this, we have lost our ability to be self-sufficient, self-directing, and to use our intelligence,etc. Well, enough of this ranting and raving for now. But just ask yourselves how dependent you are on things and people. Have a great day.
Since the subject of canes was raised(no pun intended
Don't think that carrying a cane will exempt you from being searched and singled out or that it will not be confiscated or examined with intense scrutiny these days! Even a blind man with cane is subject to the security rules found nowadays at airports, terminals, court houses, government hospitals, etc. The reason that canes, especially those with ornate handles, shaped in brass, which often are figures of cobras, lions,etc. can contain blades! Many popular sword canes are available these days and also some regular canes also possess these ornate fittings. Sword umbrellas are also another item that will cause your umbrella to be examined closely also. Umbrellas and canes, of course, are excellent, in some cases, self-defense implements. Let me hear your comments on these things. Thanks for your time. Halford
Being a major devotee of opportunity weapons, I have to agree with Halford as to the problems with the icreasing levels of "security" around the country - anything that one carries is going to get scrutinized, especially if entering a public building.
On the street, one of my favorite carries is, as I have mentioned in another thread, a pair of 5A Zildjian drum sticks. As I actually play drums, these are easily explained.
Of course, the fact that I am also over 50 helps, too!
A triple paradiddle to someone's cranium usually stops any fight, right there!
With my knees, I sometimes am forced to use a cane. Mine is a metal one, and adjustable, with the standard "J' form handle. This kind of grip is very useful in trapping and locking moves.
Another obvious use of a cane is to use it like a jo. Almost all of the moves available with the short jo can be done with a walking cane and with pretty powerful effect.
Riot baton techniques are also highly effective with a standard walking cane or walking stick, IME.
One other note on canes - they can be very useful in dealing with annoying people in crowds. Put the tim of your cane on their foot and LEAN on it. Of course, you apologize all over the place - AFTER.
Hope this helps!
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
On the street, one of my favorite carries is, as I have mentioned in another thread, a pair of 5A Zildjian drum sticks. As I actually play drums, these are easily explained.
Of course, the fact that I am also over 50 helps, too!
A triple paradiddle to someone's cranium usually stops any fight, right there!
With my knees, I sometimes am forced to use a cane. Mine is a metal one, and adjustable, with the standard "J' form handle. This kind of grip is very useful in trapping and locking moves.
Another obvious use of a cane is to use it like a jo. Almost all of the moves available with the short jo can be done with a walking cane and with pretty powerful effect.
Riot baton techniques are also highly effective with a standard walking cane or walking stick, IME.
One other note on canes - they can be very useful in dealing with annoying people in crowds. Put the tim of your cane on their foot and LEAN on it. Of course, you apologize all over the place - AFTER.
Hope this helps!
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg
Thanks for your comments on all of this.
My interest in ordinary canes and walking sticks probably stems from the fact that when I went to live on the farm that my grandparents had bought(once owned by my great-grandfather) the previous owners had left a batch of canes there and I used them for toy guns and rifles and swords,etc. and,of course, they all were eventually lost, some in the woods on the hill. Later, some kids in the town neighborhood where I moved to gave me a cane, walking stick,with an ivory knob(split-in-two,however) and held in place with a "silver"band. I still have the cane. It is quite sturdy. Eventually, my interest shifted to sword canes,etc. as some of you know. Umbrellas are my second choice for carrying something to use in defense. Although subject to scrutiny and search(for things concealed in them and I must add that a friend accompanying me to the Philippines for the first time, had a batch of things stowed in his),they usually pose no problem,especially the short,collapsable ones.Thanks for your time. Halford
http://www.canesandsuch.com/
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/staff.htm
http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/A ... elagh.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropol ... elagh.html
A couple of sites that I found interesting. My dojo is bring in the Cane Masters system. It looks good (we have nothing to compare it to) and will be our first weapon. We are also looking at bring in an arnis teacher, a friend of mine. Sticks are great weapons.
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/staff.htm
http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/A ... elagh.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropol ... elagh.html
A couple of sites that I found interesting. My dojo is bring in the Cane Masters system. It looks good (we have nothing to compare it to) and will be our first weapon. We are also looking at bring in an arnis teacher, a friend of mine. Sticks are great weapons.
Yes, Sticks are great weapons but so are:
BELTS! I wear a fairly good-sized black leather belt that can serve, along with other things, as a weapon of self-defense. It is not just the buckle that is to be considered,if at all, but the fact that it can be a good whip,etc. if you know how and when and where to use it! I won't go into any or all of this because it takes time to decribe techniques and most of the forum participants are knowledgeable martial artists and can figure things out for themselves usually. It is just that most persons do not wear good belts that can be used for such,if they wear belts at all these days, and do not practice pulling the belt off quickly so it can be used as a weapon,etc. I wear a soft hat as well that can also be used as a weapon of diversion,though heavier types could be also employed(minus the razor blades,etc.). People laugh at me sometimes for wearing a hat, carrying an umbrella,etc. but I am always armed in some fashion, even with a ball pen! For shoes, I often suggest steel-toed work shoes for those who are unsure of how damaging their ordinary shoe kicks can be. A large ring on the finger(s) can also be good knuckle dusters,though I don't wear such anymore for other reasons. I am sure you can all come up with other items that can keep you from being a total victim. One of my favorites is a rolled newspaper and/or a magazine. Even a good hardcover book can be employed at critical and crucial times for self-defense. Thanks for your time. Halford at http://arnis.homestead.com
We have incorporated a wide variety of weapons into our kobudo training. The cane and walking stick are perhaps the most important additions to our program. For examinations from Nidan and above, I expect students to demonstrate the use of a modern tool (e.g. cane, walking stick, bic pen) in the same manner and spirit as in our traditional Kobudo. Currently we are developing a program for use of the cane and walking stick by elderly and disabled persons. This includes exercises and self-protection and security training. (It fits with our law practice, which involves Elder Law).
I had to use a cane recently for a period of time following a back injury. The injury created a considerable sense of helplessness-relieved by a cane I carved from an old grape vine.
I do not have an opinion regarding Cane Masters. I do know that the common self-defense canes are not applicable to many elderly and disabled persons. Thus, depending on your orientation, I highly recommend practice with the wide variety of canes that are currently available. These include collapsible, tripod and those of various compositions. If you wish to pursue instruction of the “cane arts” it is imperative that you understand the special needs of your students.
I do have a wonderful cane from Cane Masters that was a gift from my students in Milwaukee. One of the most interesting articles regarding the cane arts was written in 1901 and serves as the fundamental training manual at our Dojo. Fortunately this text is available through Elite Forces and may be down loaded free of charge at their website. Please see:
http://www.elite-fighters.com/library/r ... hting1.htm
http://www.elite-fighters.com/library/r ... hting2.htm
Some of the pictures may look hokey-but add a survivalist attitude, a bit of focus and send those attackers to the destruction they seek!!!!
I encourage martial artists to share their knowledge and skills in assisting those whose lives have been limited in some manner.
I hope these comments are of some value.
Ron
I had to use a cane recently for a period of time following a back injury. The injury created a considerable sense of helplessness-relieved by a cane I carved from an old grape vine.
I do not have an opinion regarding Cane Masters. I do know that the common self-defense canes are not applicable to many elderly and disabled persons. Thus, depending on your orientation, I highly recommend practice with the wide variety of canes that are currently available. These include collapsible, tripod and those of various compositions. If you wish to pursue instruction of the “cane arts” it is imperative that you understand the special needs of your students.
I do have a wonderful cane from Cane Masters that was a gift from my students in Milwaukee. One of the most interesting articles regarding the cane arts was written in 1901 and serves as the fundamental training manual at our Dojo. Fortunately this text is available through Elite Forces and may be down loaded free of charge at their website. Please see:
http://www.elite-fighters.com/library/r ... hting1.htm
http://www.elite-fighters.com/library/r ... hting2.htm
Some of the pictures may look hokey-but add a survivalist attitude, a bit of focus and send those attackers to the destruction they seek!!!!
I encourage martial artists to share their knowledge and skills in assisting those whose lives have been limited in some manner.
I hope these comments are of some value.
Ron
Elite Fighters Rare Book Collection is a treat!
This is an excellent historical section. Barton Wright,as is mentioned in the footnotes, had some influence on Conan Doyle's character of Sherlock Holmes both in the single stick methods and the jiu-jitsu(Baritsu in the stories) as every Sherlockian fan knows or should know. As with line drawings, and even sculptures of ancient temples, one has to study them very carefully to get the most out of them and this is most difficult usually,since many factors are missing,such as tension, strength, angle, speed,etc. which have to be learned either through trial and error or better yet, with a skilled instructor. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this website once more. Hopefully, more materials will be added to it!
