Principles vs. Techniques

[maxwell ainley]

First of all ,enjoying what you all say ....

A few thoughts ,When I asked by Gem sensei to come on the forums .I thought what can I offer ? well a process is more or less the major basis of my posts .
Today unlike thirty or fourty year we have vast info on practice and theory/principles etc ,and some one could read all this stuff ,and never really practice it ..

Kanbun sensei taught very slowly ,little or no talk involved,untill some period in the process later on ,were he would have disscussions on various topics related to the training ,in some private info I have not every one wished to participate in the talks for reasons .
Personally I think these talks are important .in the original method brought from china ,there does not appear to be a disscussion on principle until later ,all though it makes sense principles were being communicated ,but at that point in the process ,before the talk part of the process at been reached he was looking for observation of principles ,within the framework of what had been taught .

I have now come to the point I wish to make ,self discovery of a principle gains enormous depth to character .To all of you this is the angle I much prefere in transmitting principle and technique .

Halford ,in posts I touched upon binary connection coming from seisan to sanchin again this was not a ref ;to how I think the brain works ,again it was part of the process at or within that specific stage of the process in conjunction to the internalisation process . In most of my posts I have kept to the shu stage ,so when I refere, its out of that framework most of all .

max.

[Halford]

We all breathe. Some of us breath deeply, some shallowly, some with effort,etc. A few do yoga and related breathing 'exercises' and musicians that use horns,etc. also do breath control as do singers,especially opera singers,etc. Well, the practice of breathing for certain fields of endeavor means doing a specific technique usually. Yet, most of us do not have to know either principles or techniques to breathe! It is only when we try to enhance things that we need to have both principles and techniques. There is nothing wrong with anyone focusing entirely on principles and another person focusing entirely on technique but what I am saying is simply that we need to strike a balance and unfortunately few people do this,in anything these days,no matter the subject. I don't think that people who embrace one side of the coin are any superior to those who choose the other side of the coin. The coin remains the same,as do martial arts. I can also compare this to prayer, apt to be another controversial area for many. But who is to say that the techniques of prayer are any inferior to the principles of prayer? From simply bowing of the head, to complete prostration(very difficult for most westerners),to rattling beads of various kinds, to sacrifices(animal or human),etc. The rites and rituals all have both principles and techniques. Whether we try to appease the masters or the gods does not matter: the principles remain the same while the techniques vary,as I am sure you will agree. Being ignorant of any of them can result in mishaps,etc. Have to dash now. Halford

[2Green]

What fascinates me most about breathing is that it is one of the very few functions we have which can under both conscious AND unconscious control.
There are DEFINITELY techniques to conscious breathing, and many people do breathe incorrectly while conscious.
When sleeping, the body takes over. The technique is different.
But: and here's the but! :
The PRINCIPLE of breathing DOES NOT CHANGE.

The diaphragm is lowered, creating low pressure in the lungs by expanding them. Atmospheric pressure flows into the lungs to equalize the imbalance.
That's all.
Whether you choose to do it deliberately in a certain manner to employ more or various muscle groups, aid filling, steady the nerves, make a noise...the principle of atmospheric pressure equalizing a partial vacuum DOES NOT CHANGE.

NM

[TSDguy]

Howdy Rick,

My uncle and I have had this discussion a thousand times. I thought people who didn't see the big picture were dumbasses. But his specialty is MBTI personality assessment and he enlightened me. Some people are born seeing the big picture and some CAN'T see it and MUST learn individual techniques. I'm not sure one is better than the other (well I have a bias, but only because I'm a big picture personality and not a specifics personality). The specific technique guy may learn a certain arm bar better than any one else around. I firmly belive it would behoove any serious teacher to take some pyschology of learning classes.

[Guest]

I firmly belive it would behoove any serious teacher to take some pyschology of learning classes.

Good point TSDguy. There are several styles of learning out there and if you intent on reaching the entire group you will have to present the material in more than one way.

I'm one of those give me the facts guys. Don't show me 100 permutations and commutations of the same thing, just introduce me to the concept, I'll explore the variables and choose my own just introduce me to the concept, I'll explore the vaiables and choose my own.

I've worked with folks who wanted the steps and wanted all the variables taught. To me it's here are 100 attacks and 10,000 defenses........but to these folks it's a path they need to explore. We are all different, we have different needs we have minds that learn via different input.

Yet so many martial arts are taught the way the Sensei was taught ......forever......it's job of the student to learn ......not the Sensei to teach.........how unfortunate.

Laird

[Rick Wilson]

Some great comments.

TSD guy, hmm yes something to think about. I guess I do tend to look at the big picture in a sense. I had this thought to post so I will go with it right now.

From my first post I listed the following two “techniques”:

“Now someone grabs you from the side by your collar. Your pin his hand with your chin while placing your forearm on the back of his elbow. Use the pinned hand and your forearm to draw a circle locking the elbow.

Someone places their hand on your chest fingers pointing up. You grab their elbow. Lean forward to use your chest to press the top of their hand backwards. Pull on the elbow which actually moves the bottom of their wrist in the opposite direction (in towards you) thus drawing the circle and locking the wrist.”

Now the value of seeing such “techniques” is that you see some very different ways to apply the locking principle.

The principle is the same but these may open a person’s mind to a new way of applying it.

However, if you applied those techniques without the principle:

Now someone grabs you from the side by your collar. Your pin his hand with your chin while placing your forearm on the back of his elbow. PRESS the pinned hand towards the ground AS YOU PRESS his elbow towards the ground = NO LOCK because the principle that made the lock actually work is no longer there.

Someone places their hand on your chest fingers pointing up. You grab their elbow. Lean BACK to use your chest to pull the top of their hand back towards you. Pull on the elbow which actually moves the bottom of their wrist in the opposite direction (in towards you) thus drawing the circle and locking the wrist = NO LOCK because the principle that made the lock actually work is no longer there.

So, to me techniques are valuable to demonstrate principles and to open a practitioner’s mind to new ways to apply them. But techniques without proper principles are useless.

To use Halford's prayer analogy, if there was no underlying principle to the praying would the technique matter? I guess that is the direction I come from.

And with proper principles behind your prayer would you get in trouble with who you are praying to or just the humans who set the technique rules? A personal bias showing through. Wow that discussion would take this thread in a whole new direction eh?

My preference is indeed to understand the principles because without that understanding you may not be able to pull off the technique.

While I certainly have techniques to demonstrate principles I tend to work on my students (and myself) understanding the principles and allow the students to discover and explore applications. New students need those demonstrations to get a feel for applying them.

I agree with Max that self discovery is important, but he is much farther along that path. I believe Max to be in a league of his own with his approach to practicing and teaching Uechi (and I mean that in the most complimentary way.)

[Halford]

There are what we can call for sake of discussion,"principles of agriculture" but the truth is they literally aren't a hill of beans until you get down to planting or whatever! I don't have time to discuss all this but essentially Big Picture versus limited view is another way to consider this principle vs technique, I suppose. Have to dash. Keep up the good work.

[Becca]

Hello.
I'm new to karate and am currently learning blocks and I'm so clumsy at them...however, I realize that I'm just trying to emulate the move rather than understand what the block is doing for me in a sparring situation....the point at the beginning of the thread to apply rather than just copy really made alot of sense.
Tonight while I'm practicing I'm going to remember that!
Thanks!

[Bill Glasheen]

Wonderful discussion, gentlemen!

TSDguy wrote:

My uncle and I have had this discussion a thousand times. I thought people who didn't see the big picture were dumbasses. But his specialty is MBTI personality assessment and he enlightened me. Some people are born seeing the big picture and some CAN'T see it and MUST learn individual techniques. I'm not sure one is better than the other (well I have a bias, but only because I'm a big picture personality and not a specifics personality). The specific technique guy may learn a certain arm bar better than any one else around. I firmly belive it would behoove any serious teacher to take some pyschology of learning classes.

Interesting stuff, this MBTI test. The point of it - as you now realize - is not to show one person is better and another lesser. The point is to show where a person's personality and capacity for thinking/doing lies on a 4 dimensional scale. We are whom we are, and we are at our best when our functions in life match our capacity for surviving there. And we need all types to make this world (and a dojo) run.

So, TSDguy, what's your classification? FYI, I'm an ENTP. Yes, I'm a principles and big picture guy myself. I fall in the "visionary" personality realm. And I desperately need those detail people around me (like Rich) to make a good team.

Rick

I'm a believer in going the broad spectrum of activities. I love your understanding of principles. To me, it makes everything much easier to see that big picture. I HATE the details... I suffered through courses like Biochemistry where so much sheer memorization was required. But let me understand the big picture, and I can create mental hooks (pnemonics) in my mind to help me pull all those details together. This not only helps a scatterbrained visionary like myself remember the details, but it helps me find new details once I have solid understanding of those principles.

To that end - whether you are detail or big picture person - I believe it's important to get down and dirty with those details (or in this case, specific techniques). Why? Several reasons.

First, there are only so many separate things and ways that a human brain can use at the same time. And the more "stuff" your central processor has to choose from given a situation, the longer it takes to make a choice and move on. Time can mean death in a self defense situation.

Yes, teach someone all the techniques they may need in myriad situations, and give them many, many alternatives. Folks need experience applying those techniques to make them work. But... Simultaneously tie all the many details to a handful of simple principles. Reinforce the links between technique and principle again, and again, and again. Vary the technique again and again that applies to that same principle. When the mental lightbulb goes on, your brain and neuromusclular system are going to do what they do best - be lazy and do things with the least effort. The least central processing time means hardwiring the principles (via synaptic connections) in the brain, and honing the brain's ability to free oneself from the morass of details. Blur the focus on all the "stuff" and see what it all is based on. Learn to apply the principles in new ways by yourself. Over time the naturally lazy brain will discard all those detail crutches, and keep just the principles and how to connect them to myriad ways of "doing."

Then, you're good to go. A self defense situation comes up. You are presented with a choice. Do you take too long because you have too much stuff? Do you fail because you didn't learn a specific technique solution to this specific situation? No... You let the hardwired principles communicate with the neuromuscular system and the primal brain, and just let "it" happen. What will be will be. If you did it right, there will be magic.

Long story why, but I just got back from a visit to the Virginia Commonwealth University Enginnering School. The dean and founder was my undergraduate engineering advisor at UVa. He was giving me the tour, and showing me how they now were having freshman students building robots and learning to make million transistor microprocessors STARTING THEIR FIRST YEAR while also taking the Calculus and Differential Equations and Statics and Physics ad nauseum. They didn't do that at UVa, and don't at most engineering schools. They weren't going to let those idiot freshen break things in the lab.

And you know what? The old establishment (typical engineering schools) had about a 50% retention of students. (A side note... I was an extremely rare individual in that I transferred INTO rather than OUT FROM the E-school as an undergraduate. Did the liberal arts thing and then plunged into technology. And it was a very, very rude plunge.) Meanwhile, VCU's retention is 87%. They get the detail in the lab, learning to melt chips and break robotic parts and write love e-mails on fast Sun stations. And they also get the theory. And... It works! Sure, these "idiot freshmen" f*** things up along the way, but they learn better there and obviously more students are "getting it."

That was a bit of an aside. Sorry... But to the point here I believe.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Becca

Don't think of "it" as a block. You are making circles and parries in sanchin.

These circles and parries have myriad applications. Sometimes you are blocking. Sometimes you are locking. Sometimes you are throwing. Sometimes you are attacking. The body can take the same motion and do many, many things with it. Neat!

Meanwhile, there are myriad ways to "block." Actually I HATE that word. You are "receiving" a technique. But as in a chess game, you are attempting to gain an advantage WHILE you are receiving the technique.

Over time you will learn countless ways to "receive" techniques. Sometimes you will use the circle. Sometimes you will parry and the circle is something else. Sometimes you will move instead, and the parry and/or circle are/is really the next move.

Go with it for now. But over time, let your brain go. This may not mean that much to you AT THIS POINT IN TIME, but file it away. And if you are lucky, one day it'll hit you - in a good way... .

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Thanks Rick ,for your words Did not expect so much praise .
Did write a post ,just lost it .I will try again later.

max.

[TSDguy]

I'm similar: INTP. I have no idea what street I'm on, nor do I care, but I know how to get where I'm going. Amazing test for helping the world work. It's so hard to see that other people have entirely different thought processes; I think it's natural to assume everyones brain works the ways your own does.

There are so many things to apply that to. Look at the way people teach. Some think changing forms is a deadly sin and some can't even remember the correct order at 4th degree. Neither is wrong, despite us all looking at that and saying "____ is wrong" in our heads right now.

[Halford]

tO MOVE IN A BLOCK or parry and to think of it as doing something,like blocking and parrying,especially in relation or response to an imaginary attack or whatever, detracts from the 'essence of pure movement' until you have sort of programmed the movements into your muscles,nerves,etc. and then you can think about what you are striving to do or accomplish,remembering that thought is slower than emotion as a rule. The speed of our emotions are faster than our thoughts. Our thoughts often overcrowd and interfere with one another,etc. Emotions can simply explode! Using astract patterns or forms or symbols can help as one forum participant indicated:points, circles,lines,etc. The geometry of movement can be most beautiful and that is part of the aesthetics of kata,etc. Keeping your movements on that level, however, will only give you a lovely or pretty form, as a friend of mine once said when he told me that he went to certain Tai Chi Masters to learn how to fight rather than perform a lovely form. This included, of course, the use of the swords and staff,etc. He could have gone to a more famous Tai Chi master and learned pretty forms.

[Halford]

THE PRINCIPLES OR THE TECHNIQUES? Suppose you look at the various ways in which locks and holds and so forth can be applied without any consideration of anything else:whether timing, effort involved, resistance, height, weight,etc.etc. If you look at old line-drawings of jiu-jitsu books, manuals, and related arts, you will see what is apt to be a most bewildering arrary of techniques and sometimes confusing verbal descriptions to follow. Have any of you ever tried this? Well, it becomes evident that in such things you need an opponent but it has to be a most willing one to effectively learn and this also is/was a problem, and still is in some areas. Now suppose that you learn one particular hold or method, say the so-called Japanese strangle wherein both arms are enwrapped around the neck and throat of an opponent and become very adept at it,to the extent that few, if any, persons on whom you apply it can escape. Here is a technique that can become a "specialty" and I have encountered persons with such abilities but they do not go beyond a few techniques and yet by some combination of things, they do amazingly well defending themselves or attacking others and defeating them. Well, you can supply your own examples of this. Then we have the person who can explain all the ways to do something and all the technical details but is unable to apply such in an actual encounter. We all know of this surely. Now, suppose we dispense with such line-drawings and obsolete manuals and go to video where we can see how things are done in a more dynamic way. As we watch such, do we absorb the principles being sometimes expounded or do we focus on the techniques being demonstrated to illustrate the principles? Ask yourself this question and see what your honest answer will be.

[maxwell ainley]

Hi Halford ,interesting .

" Then we have the person who can explain all the ways to do something and all the technical details ,but is unable to apply such in a actual encounter ".

In today,s situation were there is multi subject matter , we can study ,and not actually earn the info in the subject matter ,a divorce between theory and practice is primary in that type of person .
A more intelligent student should avoid that ,by simply striving to put more effort into actual practice .

In kanbun sensei's teaching you had to see ,it was not given in book form ,allthough later on he was stated to have information into other area's of karate

In brickwork we use a principle all day long ,level ,plumb gauge , it becomes a integral part of us, this principle of three ,takes the principle 3. 4.5. on a journey in design ,archetecture ,hand ,eye and head over look it .this is a principle of extension ,the more we can grasp and understand of a principle the extention becomes a reality .
With time we become the principle we merge with it ,or become as one with it .

max.