Say what you will...

[Panther]

I also agree with Gene's post. On calling those KIA "kads" or "lads", if it was a slip, it should be corrected, an "out" has been given. Otherwise, I will continue my disgust.

On bringing up Hillary and the Dems visit, the mention is because I have yet to hear anyone claim that those visits were a "political publicity stunt", but that brush has been broadly used on G.W. As previously stated, I disagree with plenty that this administration has done, but where are all those who defended the Clintons for their actions now? Finding reasons to criticize Bush... Fine, criticize away, but it looks pretty lame when there weren't similar criticisms but rather excuses tossed out during the previous administration.

Yes, I was critical of the Clintons. I don't back away from that. Yes, I have reasons to be critical of Bush too. I felt more of a need to speak up during the previous administration simply because the mainstream media and hollywood spent so much time (ultimately successfully) trying to divert the publics' attention and perception away from the real issues at hand towards a sex scandal. There are so many of those same mainstream media and hollywood types who are now spending their time trying to divert the publics' attention and perception towards how bad the current President is that I do feel the need to speak up. They are instrumental in shaping the opinions of the country. Well, it appears (from the numbers) that it is starting to work. And yet, there are more and more people who are starting to wake up and realize that the mainstream media and hollywood have their own agenda and it certainly isn't to preserve (actually I like the term "conserve") the founding principles of this nation.

However, fair is fair and if you want to criticize (perhaps rightfully so, I too don't think it was fair to hold meetings and exclude intelligent opposing viewpoints) meetings by the Bush administration that were biased, slanted, ignored those with an opposing view, but were open meetings held by appointed/elected officials who can be pointed to as directly accountable, one has to wonder how upset you must have been over Hillary's Healthcare reform meetings, which were biased, slanted, ignored those with opposing views, illegally held behind closed doors in violation of Federal law/statute (as adjudicated by the courts) and run by someone who was not elected/appointed and had no real accountability for anything that went awry. I just can't recall that happening...

So, basically, having a gripe isn't an issue, the issue is the double standard which casts Bush (or any one who is even middle of the road conservative) as a moron/idiot/putz/bad-person regardless of actions and paints the opposition (no matter how far to the left, liberal, socialist) as a good-person/intelligent/caring/saviour regardless of their actions.

In the past, on this forum, similar threads have occurred with folks for and against the Clintons. It is amazing to see how those who have been supportive of the President have reacted during this thread as opposed to the reactions of those supportive of the Clintons on those previous threads. I haven't had a single e-mail or PM from a conservative (or anyone for that matter) during this thread that has asked me to ban everyone who has said something against Bush and claiming that I am biased for not doing so. To contrast, in previous threads that were deemed "Clinton Bashing", I was absolutely deluged with e-mails and PMs from Clinton supporters who demanded that others be banned and accused me of being biased for not doing so! I just find that very interesting...

So, criticize Bush all you want for legitimate reasons, but don't get upset and defensive when the opposition gets criticized.

Have at it...

[Panther]

Hi

the innocent iraqis i mentioned were the civillians unless you think they did something to india thats the new reason for the war is india.

India was mentioned to point out that the UK isn't an "innocent nation" regarding civilian casualties.

Hans blix says theres noWOMD not me.

No. Hans Blix couldn't find any in the last decade. Since the beginning of the current war, there have been more things found than Blix found in the previous decade. Then he tried to say that he knew about the things that have been found and they weren't any big deal... But even Blix stated in his reports to the UN that he wasn't getting cooperation and that he had information that things were continuously being hidden/moved on him. As previously stated, it's in the reports, but not in the mainstream media for some reason.

I meant 'lads' obviously, Im the one argueing they shouldnt have been killed i pity them.

Thank you.

False intelligence not lies, yeah right.

You sarcasm isn't cute. The fact is that the intelligence communities in both the UK and US have been under extreme scrutiny over the bad intel for quite some time. And both have been taking extra efforts to insure the accuracy of future data.

I think Japan may be able to tell of a time you dropped a nuclear wapon.

And more firepower was dropped on Dresden Germany than in both atomic bombs... it just happened to be over a week instead of an hour. Faced with an enemy that says they will fight to the last person and take as many of you with them as they can, it was a reasonable choice at the time. Perhaps, looking at the attitude of the current crop of extremists, we should consider a tactical strike of about the same size as Hiroshima or Nagasaki... You see, the US has shown so much restraint in not using tactical nukes since 9/11/01, that the world just doesn't believe we have the 'nads to do it anymore. One little demonstration might change their minds. Whaddyathink?

Iraq had never attacked the states.

And neither had Somalia or Afghanistan or Lybia or Syria or Bosnia or... were/are you also critical of those campaigns? (I could add on lots more if you wish) In fact, the UK was never attacked by the Falklands either...

and the guy you wnet for saddam according to your own countryman is winning the war.

I haven't heard that directly. He might still be the culprit. We have to find Saddam and Osama. This may take some time, but then, you don't want this to continue at all. So, should we just walk away from this now and let everyone fend for themselves against the Saddams, Osamas, and other terrorist extremists in the world? Maybe we should bring our military home, put them on the borders in force, close the borders, kick out any illegal, kick out anyone who has terrorist ties, and tell the rest of the world to go to hades. Sound right to you?

Give peace a chance

Peace lost its chance on 9/11/01. Now hell is coming...

Give piece a chance...

[IJ]

"So, criticize Bush all you want for legitimate reasons, but don't get upset and defensive when the opposition gets criticized."

Not upset--except at what GW is doing--or defensive. Just explaining I found it off topic / no excuse. If the topic has been broadened, all is well.

I can't speak to liberals who tried to gag conservatives in the past except to say I wasn't one and don't like the idea. I can say if there's a gag order somewhere, it's at least as likely to be a conservative one. Libs have their PC problems, no doubt.... what about....

--Abortion gag rules
--denying funding to any sex ed / health group that mentions nonheterosexuality even if its only to save lives
--restricting teachers to abstinence only education
--banning,a mong other things, Harry Potter books because they support witchcraft and not traditional christianity
--barring LGB school groups

[Panther]

I can't speak to liberals who tried to gag conservatives in the past except to say I wasn't one and don't like the idea. I can say if there's a gag order somewhere, it's at least as likely to be a conservative one. Libs have their PC problems, no doubt....

To be honest, the fact is that politicians as a general group (there are still some great ones IMNSHO, but you will have fingers left over when you're done counting) have serious problems with the concepts of Freedom, Liberty, and Personal Responsibility.

what about....

--Abortion gag rules

I think we agree... if you're talking about trying to stop people from discussing abortions such as Planned Parenthood.

--denying funding to any sex ed / health group that mentions nonheterosexuality even if its only to save lives

Let me get back to this one...

--restricting teachers to abstinence only education

I disagree with restricting information to abstinence only, however that should also be seriously taught as an option (rather than dealt with by teachers and counsellors as if it was a joke) AND sex education should tell the truth about HIV (that a condom doesn't stop it... as a Dr., you already know that).

--banning,a mong other things, Harry Potter books because they support witchcraft and not traditional christianity

Agreed. Next they'll ban Stephen King and Anne Rice. NO book should be banned, but parents are free to teach their children their beliefs and point out how any book or other lesson from school is contrary to those beliefs.

--barring LGB school groups

OK... I'm going to take this to another thread...

[Kevin Mackie]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... ge=printer

The president picks up and poses with what turns out to be a decoration and this paper starts ranting about the credibility of the office.

The Iraq war is going well, the economy is soaring, seniors will get their pills, Bush's approval at 61%, so now there's not much left to pick about.

The press is despicable.

News flash, Bush will soon be responsible for killing a big tree and holding what appears to be a Pagan ceremony on the White House lawn. OMG!!

[Gene DeMambro]

The Iraqi War is mired in a quagmire that is guerilla warfare and seniors are in mass revolt in the AARP because their pill bill is a crass giveaway to special interests who bent the ear of the majority party.

Gene

[kyushoguy]

Hi all

Panther you imply 9/11 is why you are attacking saddham he didnt do that osama did? they dont even like each other.

why is bush not putting all his military might into going after the guy who successfully bombed your country and instead attacking some who never has??

There are no WOMD Bush now talks of plans instead of actual sites never noticed that?


you criticize my sources you dont know them.

We get told more information in the uk and its more reliable.

when you were being told the us had taken over bagdhad we had a jounalist giving us live reports showing us they weren't. when the us realised this they changed there story you get told what they want you to believe mate.

I didnt agree with the falklands it was wrong.

We were originally told we were under threat from sadham thats why we originally sent guys in


There are no nuclear plants so we werent under immediate threat.


Have you seen a photo of a plant or any bombs do you not think we would be shown em if they were there???

your in denial mate you were lied to accept it.


Poloticians lie i thought everyone knew that.

what is bush's War record he go to Vietnam????


KG

[Panther]

Hi all

Panther you imply 9/11 is why you are attacking saddham he didnt do that osama did? they dont even like each other.

They have captured Al-Queda members in Iraq in addition to other members of terrorist organizations. When this started after 9/11, it was stated that we would seek out and destroy terrorists... That led us to Afghanistan and Iraq to start. There are other places just as bad and hopefully they're next on the list. IMNSHO, some of them should have already been taken care of.

why is bush not putting all his military might into going after the guy who successfully bombed your country and instead attacking some who never has??

I'm not in charge of strategy.

There are no WOMD Bush now talks of plans instead of actual sites never noticed that?

They've shown sites for chemical and biological research and production... they also found a huge store of modified SCUD II missles (which could make it to western europe). WMD doesn't equate to just "nuclear".

you criticize my sources you dont know them.

I can say the same thing. And you will never know how high (or not) my sources are.

We get told more information in the uk and its more reliable.

BBC? Hmmmmmm...

when you were being told the us had taken over bagdhad we had a jounalist giving us live reports showing us they weren't. when the us realised this they changed there story you get told what they want you to believe mate.

I didn't see that. Then again, I don't get my info from the mainstream news outlets, so maybe it happened, idunno. I think it's great that you get every news broadcast from the US tho.

We were originally told we were under threat from sadham thats why we originally sent guys in

If he'd gotten one of those SCUD II missles loaded with bio/chem agents, launched into western europe and the wind was blowing the right way, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

There are no nuclear plants so we werent under immediate threat.

See above under: WMD != nuclear.

Have you seen a photo of a plant or any bombs do you not think we would be shown em if they were there???

Again: WMD != nuclear. Other WMD plants & missles have been found as previously stated.

your in denial mate you were lied to accept it.

That's OK. Since I do watch some mainstream news and hear plenty of rhetoric, I'm used to being lied to.

Poloticians lie i thought everyone knew that.

Now see... we do agree on some things! (though spelling isn't one of them )

what is bush's War record he go to Vietnam????

And where was your criticism when Clinton was in office?

I didn't go to Nam... Did you? What has that got to do with this? Bush served
in the military, he respects the troops and the vast majority of them respect him. A welcome change from the previous 8 years...

[Panther]

Saw this and thought it would be an interesting juxtaposition for the subject of this thread...

------------------------------------------------------------------

Hillary Supports Troops by Making Them Wait an Extra Hour

Tuesday, Dec. 2, 2003 12:44 a.m. EST
Bagram GI: Troops Waited While Hillary Chowed Down
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003 ... 1616.shtml

U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton forced U.S. troops stationed at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan to wait for their Thanksgiving dinner last Thursday while she and her entourage arrived late, then cut in line and were served first.

A soldier who witnessed the scene tells NewsMax:

"Thanksgiving Dinner started at 3 p.m. that day, so the line was forming around 2:30 p.m.

She didn't show up until around 3:30 p.m.

"Once she got there," our source maintains, "Clinton and her entourage bumped everyone in line, forcing them to wait almost an extra hour."

The brass at Bagram apparently had a hard time rounding up New Yorkers who wanted to have dinner with Clinton, D-N.Y.

Only six GIs responded to an e-mail sent out last week that stated, "Looking for military members from New York and Rhode Island interested in meeting their Senator/Congressman."

People magazine was on hand to cover the event and wanted to interview the troops for reaction to Clinton's visit.

"But they were getting declined left and right," our source said.

"People were actually telling the reporters, 'You don't want to print what I think about her and her visit.'"

After Clinton and her entourage departed, the only topics GIs wanted to talk about were "how great the food was and how fantastic they thought George Bush's visit to Iraq was."

[RACastanet]

Panther: Do they not have 'spell checker' or dictionaries in the UK?

Re: President Bush's visit to Iraq, the reaction of the troops was quite different to the reaction to Sen. Clinton's visit. Read on...

Subject: A Capt. in Iraq

We knew there was a dinner planned with Ambassador Bremer and LTGen. Sanchez.
There were 600 seats available and all the units in the division were tasked with filling a few tables. Naturally, the 501st MI battalion got our table.

Soldiers were grumbling about having to sit through another dog-and-pony show, so we had to pick soldiers to attend. I chose not to go. But, about 1500 the G2, LTCol. Devan, came up to me and with a smile, asked me to come to dinner with him, to meet him in his office at 1600 and bring a camera. I didn't really care about getting a picture with Sanchez or Bremer, but when the division's senior intelligence officer asks you to go, you go.

We were seated in the chow hall, fully decorated for Thanksgiving when aaaaallllll kinds of secret service guys showed up. That was my first clue, because Bremer's been here! before and his personal security detachment is not that big.

Then BGen. Dempsey got up to speak, and he welcomed ambassador Bremer and LTGen. Sanchez. Bremer thanked us all and pulled out a piece of paper as if to give a speech. He mentioned that the President had given him this thanksgiving speech to give to the troops. He then paused and said that the senior man present should be the one to give it. He then looked at Sanchez, who just smiled. Bremer then said that we should probably get someone more senior to read the speech.

Then, from behind the camouflage netting, the President of the United States came around. The mess hall actually erupted with hollering. Troops bounded to their feet with shocked smiles and just began cheering with all their hearts. The building actually shook. It was just unreal. I was absolutely stunned. Not only for the obvious, but also because I was only two tables away from the podium. There he stood, less than thirty feet away from ! me! The cheering went on and on and on. Soldiers were hollering, cheer ing, and a lot of them were crying. There was not a dry eye at my table. When he stepped up to the cheering, I could clearly see tears running down his cheeks. It was the most surreal moment I've had in years. Not since my wedding and Aaron being born. Here was this man, our President, came all the way around the world, spending 17 hours on an airplane and landing in the most dangerous airport in the world, where a plane was shot out of the sky not six days before. Just to spend two hours with his troops. Only to get on a plane and spend another 17 hours flying back. It was a great moment, and I will never forget it.

He delivered his speech, which we all loved, when he looked right at me and held his eyes on me. Then he stepped down and was just mobbed by the soldiers. He slowly worked his way all the way around the chow hall and shook every last hand extended. Every soldier who wanted a photo with the President got one. I made my way through the line, got dinner, then wolfed it down as he was still working the room. You could tell he was really enjoying himself. It wasn't just a photo opportunity. This man was actually enjoying himself! He worked his way over the course of about 90 minutes towards my side of the room.

Meanwhile, I took the opportunity to shake a few hands. I got a picture with Ambassador Bremer, Talabani (acting Iraqi president) and Achmed Chalabi (another member of the ruling council) and Condaleeza Rice, who was there with him. I felt like I was drunk.

He was getting closer to my table so I went back over to my seat. As he passed and posed for photos, he looked me in the eye and said, "How you doin', captain." I smiled and said "God bless you, sir." To which he responded "I'm proud of what you do, captain." Then moved on

[Panther]

Listen closely Rich...

That silence you hear is the ultra-left-wing working on the best way to spin another Clinton's snub of the U.S. military into the best thing while trying to spin the President's trip into a "political publicity stunt". It just takes pulling a bunch of Hollywood and big media types together in another Hillary-organized/sponsored "I Hate Bush" party/fund-raiser. As you already know, those in the military know the truth... hopefully this time the left won't try to void all of their absentee ballots.

[Deep Sea]

As you already know, those in the military know the truth... hopefully this time the left won't try to void all of their absentee ballots.

My son-sailor has told me they ALL love Bush and the current administration where he's stationed.

Soldiers were grumbling about

Isn't it true that's the favorite pasttime of military men? So what's new? When they quit grumbling then something's gotta be wrong.

Came back from Matt Drudge's website. Here's his latest report:

A new shock song from rapper Eminem wishes the president dead, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned...

Hollywood's on the move.

But then again, the following is much better than supporting a war, I think? [extracted from Matt's site]

Warning: Jelly doughnuts may be hazardous to your child's health. That's what Democratic presidential candidate Joe Lieberman is telling America's parents as he seeks a federal investigation into the marketing practices of junk food companies

He's my man [yeah right] if he'll fight the Jelly Wars.

[kyushoguy]

Hi Panther etc,

I'm assuming now bush doesn't talk about W.O.M.D. you realise us lefties were right all along and there were none in Iraq.

He talks of programmes now.LOL

Is that what our soldiers died for, Programmes????

Not much of a threat IMVHO.

If he'd have told you the truth or you'd seen through his lies as I did in the first place, would you have agreed to send your boys to fight on the basis of them possibly having Programmes????

Notice he mentioned 9/11 agin in his last pathetic excuse for a speach.

I see you point out there are Al Quaeda cells in Iraq.

There are in the states and the uk too, you gonna attack us next.

THERE ARE NO W.O.M.D. EVEN YOU SHOULD SEE THAT NOW, US LEFTIES AS YOU CALL US WERE RIGHT, BE A MAN ADMIT IT.


KG

[Panther]

As expected, you have your usual insulting attitude. I expect no less from you.

I see you point out there are Al Quaeda cells in Iraq.

There are in the states and the uk too, you gonna attack us next.

A couple of B-52's over the UK would be fine by me... Here in the U.S., I prefer rounding them up and sending them to the UK via the bomb-bay doors of a B-52.

THERE ARE NO W.O.M.D. EVEN YOU SHOULD SEE THAT NOW, US LEFTIES AS YOU CALL US WERE RIGHT, BE A MAN ADMIT IT.

(Shouting is so boorish...)

OK... I admit it. I'm on the Right, you're on the Left, and I'm a man.

If it will make you happy,

YOU ARE SOOOOOO CORRECT! YOU KNOW EVERRYTHING AND EVERYONE ELSE DOESN'T! YOU ARE A "LEFTIE" WHO IS RIGHT, DAMN IT! SADDAM WAS NEVER A THREAT! YOU ARE ALL SEEING! I MUST HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY WRONG!

Gloat all you want. It doesn't change who I am or who you've shown yourself to be. Now, when you're done gloating, please carry on with your delusions of grandeur...