The problem (?) with chambering

[Bill Glasheen]

The natives have been restless lately, if you haven't noticed...

In any case, Rick and I have been in a dialogue about a topic that actually has me thinking quite a bit. I'm really not sure when the thoughts started with Rick, but I know the idea that chambering was "bad" in SD or even in NHB matches has been discussed.

Is it? Is it bad to chamber in sanchin? Is it bad to chamber in seisan? Is it bad to chamber in prearranged kumite?

I have my ideas on this. But before I do, I thought I'd seek out others' thoughts first.

- Bill

[gmattson]

is an important considerations regarding "chambering'.

A "signature" concept in Uechi-ryu is the intercepting attack... as in Seisan opening triple open-palm moves. Even as one is being executed, the other arm is revolving in an opposite direction in a chamber-like movement.

It is pretty obvious that all things being equal, the longer the movement, the more acceleration, speed and power is possible. Just as obvious, jabs and shorter punches can begin anywhere, thus being less likely to be blocked or avoided.

Its all a matter of opportunity.

[Spitkicker]

My understanding of chambering has to do with the power from the hips.

Learning to launch the fist off the hips teaches the power source that allows a person to add tremendous power to their punch.

Without a proper chamber on the hip, there is no 'connection' between the two (hip, hand);
Without this connection; learning to use the power sources (hip - vibration, rotation) would be difficult to explain & learn.

Learning to launch from the chamber position, teaches one proper power generation & helps to build speed.

How?
Teaching one to launch from a farther distance makes you work harder to cover the distance.

When you throw a strike from a realistic fighting position, you will
(a) strike fast without chambering....as its closer and you have developed speed from trying to strike from the longer chamber position.
(b) have a sense of how to use your hips properly from being guided with the exagerated movements during training.

These points are of special interest when I see 'modernized' training debunking the traditional training methods.
The new systems teach the natural movements etc...however many of those who I saw had speed but lacked power.

The traditionalists have the time tested tools; however most are sheltered from realistic attacking in their 'jammie clubs'.

The chamber is necessary to learn how to strike effectively, but the physical move has to be adapted on the street...learning the power source and applying it accordingly.

I think!

[jorvik]

I suppose one thing about having your hand on your hip is that it doesn't telegraph where the punch is going. Usually when you telegraph you raise your shoulder and this indicates which direction you intend to punch.
However, from a uechi viewpoint, I regard Uechi as a southern style similar to Wing Chun, of which I have done a little, and the basic premise of such styles is that you strike from where you are, if my punch was blocked then I move my arm back just enough to re-attack and not all the way back to my hip because this saves distance and gives my attack flow

[Stryke]

I beleive the chambering of the punch is symbolic of a grab with one hand and a punch with the other , the chamber is the pull .


It might be a usefull tool in some ways for coordination .. perhaps , but the fact is it aids nothing to punching power , and can be a bad habit , exposing yourself and causing hesitation .

to hold and pull with one hand and hit with the other does increase power .

Spitkicker lists the traditional rteasons most often quoted

but boxers dont learn this way and they do hit hard

learning mechanics aside , it shouldnt be a habit and done in a real situation if possible .

I dont beleive chambering is wrong in kata , because your demonstrating IMHO a grabing technique , but if chambering with an opponent and not grabbing I beleive your programming bad habits .

It doesnt so much matter where the punch comes from but the fact that you can throw it from anywhere , if you have to pull it back , or allow an opening to do this then thats a negative in my book .

Interesting topic , this Native is thoroughly amused

[Spitkicker]

but boxers dont learn this way and they do hit hard

Yup, I didn't think of that when I posted....That being said, I think they do chamber..they have to put their body weight behind the strike, which is one lesson the chamber teaches.

While you do not have time to (and would be unwise) to chamber in RL the body mechanics are still the same, using the hip rotation, twist the foot to turn into the strike bringing the strike up from the floor.

Once understood there is no reason to do a full chamber back to the hip.

Self defense applications cannot be ignored either..as most likely mentioned elsewhere; the rear elbow, or the grab and pull..etc.

[2Green]

Hi Stryke!
In Uechi the "grab" (if used at all) is actually done by the circular-moving (blocking) hand while the OTHER hand "chambers" for the strike.
This improves the strike because we can yank the opponent towards us while striking at the same time.
Therefore, one is not defenseless, or idiotically leading with the nose while chambering; it's being done in the background while the opponent's attack is being deflected, and he's being grabbed and set up for a rude whack.
In practice there is only a split second between the block/grab and the counterstrike...it's almost simultaneous, but a really good block does give you lots-o-time. You gotta play with the Wauke block, it's brilliant!

SpitKicker:
I know there are preferences as to where to place the chambered hand; we are taught never to put it on the hip, but keep the forearm parallel with the floor which tucks the chambered hand into the ribcage, about 2" below the nipple. More invisible, straighter trajectory, a foot & a half closer (= faster) to the target. Since we don't use body rotation to generate power, this "loss of distance" is not a factor.
My teacher can pop me on the chest with an open back-slap hand from this range and I can feel my spine jolt. I can't imagine a closed fist.
Anyway, that's how we do it.

NM

[Stryke]

thanks mate that makes sense , I have been playing with the Wauke already its great i agree , I see at as two moves in one , chambering doesnt matter so much if you already have control , to that I agree , Its an interesting subject , Am always keen to find out whys .

[Guest]

In Uechi the "grab" (if used at all) is actually done by the circular-moving (blocking) hand while the OTHER hand "chambers" for the strike.

This improves the strike because we can yank the opponent towards us while striking at the same time.

The wauke is the gift that keeps on giving. Good explanation Neil. Stryke suggests the chamber as a grab and pull…..the wauke actual is used this way as well. Neil has explained the two hand method , but there are many one hand methods in Uechi which are used to draw the EBG into a Strike. You end up with the target falling onto the strike.

In the application of wauke this occurs with the minor hand when on the inside the parry is used to pull the attacker in. Think of the minor hand chambering high for the boshiken , and think sticky hands. The strength of this drawing in is magnified by rotation at the knees , hip , or by stepping. But the bottom line is your pulling the EBG into the strike by chambering the strike.

This one hand draw and strike is very common in crane movements in Uechi. Think of the wrist block grab in Seichin Kata. Here's an alternative, try opening and dropping the wing of the crane over the incoming strike (straight punch) deflecting it off line. Draw the EBG closer by chambering that wing as a bushiken strike ala wauke.(keep it sticky) Use rotational force or down ward pressure to improve the draw. Fire that thumb knuckle (Wing top strike) into the EBG who is falling into you. Just another instance of drawing and chambering being one handed in Uechi.

Hope this makes sense

Laird

[Stryke]

Perfect sense Laird , very cool tool indeed , I`m pretty sure i visualise it right .

deffinately a good tool drawing and disrupting and creating position .

I do a similar move , and I label it a transfer , its deffinately a mainstay and chambering once in control is fine if it`s a preference .

[Karateka]

I don't camber in the traditional sense, but bring the hand back to guard my chin.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bingo...

This definition of chambering = bringing the hand/fist back to the hip is way too narrow for me. Frankly in the Uechi system, one doesn't chamber at the hip anyhow in sanchin. Instead one brings the hand back so that the base of the wrist touches the ribs.

And that's just a kata... A long time ago when I was training under the world heavyweight powerlifting champion (learning weight training), he told me to forget about doing all the silly sport-specific resistance exercises, like swinging weighted bats, blocks with weights, etc., etc. "Do you want to get strong or not? That's what you're doing here." Actually it is a bit more than that... You're picking up proprioceptive and plyometric skills in some of the basic lifts like power cleans and such. But a bench press works just as well for a martial artist as it does for a football player. It won't make you chamber in a fight.

At some point you need routines that focus specifically on the activity-specific skills. That's when you pick up the specific desired habits, and apply the basic skills developed elsewhere.

IMO, chambering exists in all fighting - particularly as you flow from technique to technique. It just takes on a different look; it doesn't look like white belt martial arts anymore. You don't necessarily go all the way back any more (unless you are in control and can get away with it...), and it isn't just with the arm.

But that just my opinion...

- Bill

[Walkman]

One major difference I've noticed between my former Shotokan training (brown belt) and my current Uechi training is the efficiency of the kata techniques.

Here's what I mean:
In almost all Shotokan blocks the blocking hand across to the ear, under the arm or to the hip, while the non-blocking hand goes straight out. The block is then thrown with power being generated from the opposing arms movements and hip rotation. An example (gedan-barai):


This the the way pretty much all techniques are done in kata and formal exercises, except sparring. No one goes all the way chambered to block a kick like that in a sparring match.

My observation is that in Uechi-Ryu, the is a great economy of movement. Blocks are executed straight from guard. The non-blocking hand stays in guard. When striking the hand does go back to chamber, but not to the exent as it does in Shotokan, and the opposite hand stays out in guard. In this essence I find Uechi-Ryu more suitable for real-world sparring applications than Shotokan.

my .02¢

-Walkman

[Dana Sheets]

So in the beginning we train full range of motion - so that we know the full range of our bodies. As we advance we have a better idea of what our bodies can do and the hope is that we will use just enough movement to execute sucessfully whatever it is we're trying to do.

When throwing a flurry of hand strikes there must be some chambering of the body, hips, and legs - otherwise you're flailing your arms and not making good use of the great gift of body weight shifting.

So a pre-arranged kumite that's not done to a metronome will have some chambering as the body compensates and adjusts to deliver the maximum power. But a pre-arranged kumite that's done stop & go style with exaggerated chambers and exaggerated circles is much more karate-show than karate-jutsu.

I wish (how I wish) Uechi had a better vocabulary for long form, medium form, and short form of technique. A full chamber and full strike is long form. Setting up your body and delivering into the target is short form. It becomes less about what your body is doing alone and mostly about what your body is doing in relation to the other body you're dealing with.

[Spitkicker]

looking at those down block photos...

The chamber and set hand here show great examples of self defense applications...
The first picture, the set hand is weak (Looks like the elbow is bent) and several applications are excluded because of this.

1) traditional down block, then step in and counter.

2) the chambered hand (left hand in photo) is the actual sweeping block to the high level strike. The set hand (right hand in pic)..if it was straight as it should be THAT would be the first counter, a blasting fist to the gut.

Sorry I have a meeting and have to run; the point is while the chamber in many respests is not practical on the street...practicing exerated moves in training can
a) help understanding,
b) open doors to new motions not readily looked at.

I cringe when I see poor set hands and chambers for that matter (like this photo IF the arm is indeed bent..a little hard to tell here) as the student is potentially missing added value to the move with extra applications than the cookie cutter material.

My AM rant...will revise this afternoon..