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Akil Todd Harvey
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11-Step Program for Iraq Failure

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

The Bush team is repeating the mistakes the U.S. made in Vietnam.

COMMENTARY
By Lawrence J. Korb, Lawrence J. Korb is a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress in Washington and senior advisor to the Center for Defense Information.
11-Step Program for Iraq Failure

In his press conference on April 13, President Bush argued that comparing the quagmire in Iraq with Vietnam would only be a disservice to our troops.

However, if one reviews the list of mistakes that former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara claims we made in prosecuting the war in Vietnam, it is clear that Bush, his advisors and the American people can learn a great deal about how we got ourselves into the current situation in Iraq and how we can get out of it.

In his book "Retrospect," McNamara argues that he and his colleagues in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations made 11 mistakes in their handling of Vietnam.

The first, and presumably the most egregious, was to exaggerate the dangers our adversaries posed to us, something the Bush administration did in Iraq by exaggerating intelligence about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and its ties to Al Qaeda.

Bush's comments about how we are fighting the enemy in Baghdad so we will not have to fight it in Boston (or Brooklyn) are eerily reminiscent of President Johnson's comments about how we were fighting communists in Saigon so we would not have to fight them in San Francisco.

McNamara's next four mistakes concern our misjudgments about the political forces, nationalism and the history and culture of Vietnam as well as our ability to shape every nation in our own image.

It is now clear that our lack of knowledge about Iraq, coupled with the belief that America could shape Iraq in its own image, led the Bush administration to assume that we would be greeted as liberators, and that the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds would agree to set up a federal republic modeled after our own.

Another three of McNamara's criteria focus on the use of military power. He warns that high-technology military equipment is insufficient to win the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

He also says Congress and the American people should be drawn into a full, frank debate on the pros and cons of large-scale military involvement, and that military action should be carried out only in conjunction with the real support of the international community.

Casting these lessons aside, the Bush administration failed to heed the advice of military professionals that our overwhelming conventional military power would not be enough to translate a military victory into a stable peace without the deployment of a large number of ground troops for a long time.

The administration failed to let Congress and the American people have a full, frank debate about the reasons for going to war or how long it would take or how much it would cost. Finally, though 30 nations lent their political support to the cause, the only significant practical support has come from the British; more than 90% of the casualties and the cost has been and will be continued to be borne by the United States.

Two of McNamara's mistakes concern the failure to explain to Americans when and why unanticipated events forced us off course and to make it clear to the people that in international affairs we may have to live in an imperfect, untidy world.

The Bush administration has still not explained why it was mistaken about the primary reasons for going to war. Even in the face of recent setbacks, it has yet to acknowledge that creating a stable Iraq will be a long, difficult and costly endeavor and cannot be accomplished by an artificial deadline like June 30. The president has not recognized that we may have to live with an Iraq that is not a Jeffersonian democracy.

The final mistake that we made in Vietnam was to not organize the executive branch to deal with the complex range of political and military issues that situation presented. If anything, the organizational failures are worse in Iraq. The State Department began planning for the Iraqi reconstruction about 18 months before the invasion, but when the Pentagon was unexpectedly given responsibility for reconstruction, its first viceroy, Lt. Gen. Jay Garner, was not even allowed to consult with the State Department. Moreover, the invading troops were not given any guidance about what to do when the regime fell and even a year after the fall of Baghdad it remains unclear who is in charge of reconstruction and stabilization.

Not learning from our mistakes in Vietnam would be the real disservice to our troops and the country. In fact, learning from those mistakes might be the best, if not the only, way to understand how we got into the current mess in Iraq and how we might get out of it.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Akil
The Council on American-Islamic Relations reported 221 incidents in 2003 of anti-Muslim bias in California, ranging from the severe beating of a Yorba Linda youth to vandalism of a San Luis Obispo mosque. Nationally, the council reported 1,019 anti-Muslim incidents, representing a 69% increase.

The report attributed the increased incidents to several factors, including a "lingering atmosphere of fear" stemming from the Sept. 11 attacks, fallout from the Iraq war, anti-Islam rhetoric from some conservative religious leaders, increased reporting of incidents by communities to the council, and U.S. anti-terrorism policies, which Muslims allege adversely affect them.
I am not at all surprised (and of course I am not at all pleased).

What would change this, Akil? If you were Czar, what would you do?
It is now clear that our lack of knowledge about Iraq , coupled with the belief that America could shape Iraq in its own image, led the Bush administration to assume that we would be greeted as liberators , and that the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds would agree to set up a federal republic modeled after our own.
I agree that this was terribly naive.

One comment though. Weren't you posting earlier on this forum that you were upset when folks in this country thought Muslims/Arabs weren't capable of conducting a democracy? (A comment in reference to our support of autocratic Arab regimes)
He also says Congress and the American people should be drawn into a full, frank debate on the pros and cons of large-scale military involvement , and that military action should be carried out only in conjunction with the real support of the international community .
Nice in theory. Good luck, and watch your back!

Vis-a-vis Iraq we were damned, no matter what path we took (IMHO). Too many parties seeking their own self interest.
Two of McNamara's mistakes concern the failure to explain to Americans when and why unanticipated events forced us off course and to make it clear to the people that in international affairs we may have to live in an imperfect, untidy world.

The Bush administration has still not explained why it was mistaken about the primary reasons for going to war. Even in the face of recent setbacks, it has yet to acknowledge that creating a stable Iraq will be a long, difficult and costly endeavor and cannot be accomplished by an artificial deadline like June 30. The president has not recognized that we may have to live with an Iraq that is not a Jeffersonian democracy.
Interesting... Watch very carefully. These messages are making it to the public, particularly through well-spoken people like Condaleeza Rice.

But it ain't over yet. And our Jeffersonian democracy was not created overnight. I don't buy the failure argument yet.

And I don't buy that we shouldn't turn the keys over to the Iraqis on June 30th. On the contrary, it should be done ASAP. But our troops will be there for a very, very long time keeping the peace.

- Bill
cxt
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Post by cxt »

I wonder how Akil would take it if I started posting an article a day on the various human rights abuses, crimes, corruption, jailings, funding of terrosim, killings etc.

That occur in the Arab/Muslium world.

Just a thought.

I mean Akil is so concerned about international activities, kinda odd that he leaves so much of the world unexamined.

Kinda like the recent murder in Saudi Arabia in which unarmed westerners were ambushed and killed--at least one of their bodies drug thu the streets by the killers.

Odd, Akil has nothing to say about such a craven act.

Even less to say when a high ranking Saudi official claimed that "It was the work of Zionest hands"

Cold blooded craven murder, blatent anti-Semitism (sp) yet that seems to have utterly escaped the laser-keen perception of "cub reporter" Akil.

Weird.
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Post by benzocaine »

WARNING - GRAPHIC PHOTOS!!

- the editor

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

More pictures to take in.

click here

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Post by Mary S »

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Last edited by Mary S on Tue May 04, 2004 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cxt
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Post by cxt »

There is no excuse for the mistreatment of prisoners--no excuse.

But seeing those pictures--bodies multilated, bodies burned, ringed with laughing, jeering crowds bodies dragged thu the streets, then hung up so the the cowards can get a good picture of themselves with the mutilated body of a human being.

Makes it easier to understand why some folks lose it and cross the line.

Fortunatly we are investigaing the matter and people are going down--hopefully hard.

I wonder what steps are being taken by the "outraged" communites to find the people responsible for the murder, mutilation and burning of our people??

I wonder if they are working hard to bring them to justice?

I wonder what communities are calling for them to be tracked down? What groups are hounding the folks involved for answers? Which leaders are investigating them?

After all we have their pictures--someone should know them.

There is no excuse for the mistreatment of prisioners, no excuse--on either side.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

cxt and Ben

Points well taken.

However we do want to distinguish ourselves from the enemy, no? Sadly I feel we've f***ed up! It takes years to build trust, and only one minor incident (relatively speaking here) to lose it.

I for one don't mind the ranting opponent spouting propaganda in my ear. At least I know what they are thinking!

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John Lennon
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Post by John Lennon »

Usually your responses are well thought out and logical Dr. Glasheen. Unfortunately this time you seem to be regurgitating the dogma put fourth by the Bush administration.

Anti-Iraq sentiments are not "Muslim views" but represent about 99% of the world outside of the United States and perhaps 50% within our borders.
I can only imagine how we would feel if our country was invaded. For make no mistake, we are not liberators but occupiers. Our actions are no better or worse then
our professed enemies.

Hussein was evil? Well as one Iraqi wrote:
The former prisoner, who spoke only on condition that he not be identified, said he had cheered the ouster of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein but that after his
treatment at the hands of his U.S. captors, he considered the Americans to be as bad as “10 Saddams.”
cxt
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Post by cxt »

John

Here's the problem with that quote--the guy had to be alive to say it.

That means he is far better off then the 10s of 1000s of Iraqi that were murdered, tortured, dunked in barrels of acid, thrown off rooftops, had gasoline poured down their throats, wives and childern raped in front of them, or simply just vanished--never to be seen again.

Whats the death toll for the last 30 years?? Any guess on your part??

Sorry, despite the problems, dude is far better off with us.

To say claim otherwise is to extremely disingenious.
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Post by Valkenar »

uglyelk wrote:Nice to have a free news service, any one know if there are any free services that are unbiased.
Nope, and there aren't any unbiased commercial offerings either.

Everything created by humans is biased. There's no such thing as total objectivity.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

John

I don't entirely disagree with you, and I don't mind you calling me when I seem "off center" from your point of view.

Part of me is really bothered that we violated a fundamental right of self determination by entering Iraq and removing a regime. Maybe in the big picture, it's better to let Uncle Saddam do his thing - however objectionable - and let nature take its course. The goal then wouldn't be seeking to impose freedom, but rather keeping tyranny contained. Indeed this is what we did with the Soviet Union. In today's world and with this particular lunatic, maybe this works, and maybe it doesn't.

At this point though it's moot. We broke it (the Iraqi government) and now it is ours to fix. No matter what the reason for starting it, no matter how right or wrong we were and how (un)justified our actions, it's now our obligation to see this through.

As for how we feel vs. the Muslim vs. the greater world, well... In point of fact, John, we WERE invaded. The Iraqi invasion - however (un)justifiable - did not happen in a vacuum. There is a very long plot here. To some extent we need to be a good citizen in the world community. But to some extent, selfish thinking is warranted. We're the only ones - at the end of the day - who will cover our arses. We just need to make sure we make the correct choices and execute them well. And the correct decision (for us) may or may not be the most popular one.

Got a crystal ball?

WANTED - GREAT LEADERSHIP!

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cxt
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Post by cxt »

Bill

Thing is that had we chosen not act, we would still be getting hammered for "allowing" the abuses to continue.

I honestly think that we are damned if we do and damned of we don't.

We also (for better or worse) seem to be the ONLY nation that gives a hang for "world opinion."

You don't see China-who also has been dealing with fanatics in esp. ruthless fashion--I might add. Getting all concerned with the worlds opinion.

You don't see the French, Russias, Iranians, Turks, Spanish, Germans, Japanese, North Korea, Syria, Jordan, Egypt.

Esp fellow middle-eastern nations have a horrible history of human rights violations--they are esp brutal in rooting out those whom they see as "threats to the state".

Anyone recall Pakestian taking the MOTHER of a suspected terroist into "protective custody" then having her call her son from prison??

Where was all the outrage about that??

Anyone recall the tourists that were killed in Egypt several years ago?? Egypt makes millions from tourism--they tracked done the terroists with exceptional ruthlessness--and several human rights groups protested their acts--and did Egypt care?--No they defended the acts as needed for the defense of nation and stop futher acts of terrorism.

Period, end of story.

And nobody cared.

Look at how much flak we took for waiting as long as we did to "intefer" (sp ) in Bosina and Kosavo.

Look at the death toll in Ruwanda when the entire world "failed" to act.

I think were damned of we do and damned if we don't.
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Post by KZMiller »

I don't think we'd be denounced if we didn't involve ourselves in any given conflict, but that may be my lack of world politics. Regardless, I haven't heard any big stinks about us not going into a given country and straightening out its problems.

I do think that we should pay attention to world opinion, because we want other countries to respond to world opinion and therefore we should set an example. Unfortunately I have little faith in the UN, little faith in other countries' motives when they express their opinion, and so I could not base my decisions solely on world opinion.

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cxt
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Post by cxt »

KZ

Excellent point, we can't expect others to do whats right if we don't follow the rules ourselves.

Just feel like we (ok lets throw in the British and Aussies) are the only ones even trying.
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Exporting America's Shame

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

This article seems to highlight possible sources of Arab and or Iraqi anger, hatred and rage. It is not an excuse for acts contrary to the geneva conventions related to the commission of warfare on the part of Iraqis or Arabs, or Muslims, to do so would only continue to feed the cycle of violence that I so vociferously despise.

I have taken the liberty to editorialize by bolding certain sections.

Disclaimer: If I seem to say that one or more Americans has done something wrong, it is not a blanket indictment of all Americans as my beloved detractors will have you, the reader, believe.

Isn't it cheaper to send a black man to school/college/vocational traning than to jail? Or would that be defined as socialism or communism?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... t-opinions

By Robert L. Bastian Jr., Robert L. Bastian Jr. is a Los Angeles lawyer.
President Bush has asserted that the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib "does not reflect the nature of the American people."

"That's not the way we do things in America," he added.

In terms of aspirations, Bush is certainly correct: Americans generally do not regard themselves as arrogant, abusive, violent, mean, petty and ignoble. As a matter of empirical, verifiable fact, however, the best social scientific evidence suggests that the president is simply wrong on both counts.

In 1971, for example, Stanford psychology professor Philip G. Zimbardo initiated an experiment in which participating Stanford students were designated either as prisoners or guards, with guards told to maintain order. After only a few days, the project had to be terminated prematurely because the guards were, with no apparent motivation other than fulfilling their roles, becoming uncomfortably abusive toward the prisoners. What does that say about our "nature"?

In another famous experiment, Yale psychology professor Stanley Milgram told subjects to give electric shocks to a victim in a learning experiment. As the victim — an actor in another room who was not actually being shocked — gave incorrect answers, the participants were asked to turn the voltage up, even to where the dial read "danger," a point at which the victim could be heard screaming. Although often reluctant, two-thirds of the subjects continued to follow orders to administer shocks.

Given that, what's so surprising about the fact that in 2004, reservists controlling the relevant tier in Abu Ghraib prison would — in an effort to follow orders — agree to "soften" the Iraqi detainees for questioning?

If the president was wrong about the nature of the American people, he was no less wrong about the way things are done by Americans.

At the outset of the occupation, it was earnestly argued that the Iraqi people would welcome and benefit from imposition of U.S.-style democracy and freedoms. The American public — and, I suspect, most of the world — believed that Americans could do a better job of running a prison such as Abu Ghraib. We're not arbitrary, abusive, unaccountable or unjust, right? Indeed, last June, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski told a reporter that Americans were making living conditions so much better at Abu Ghraib that she was concerned prisoners "wouldn't want to leave."

But again, we are deluding ourselves. The hard fact is that the U.S. did install in Iraq an American-style approach to prison management. Like the U.S. prison system, it is underfunded and inadequately supervised, lacks civilian oversight and accountability and is secretive and tolerant of inmate abuse until evidence of mistreatment is pushed into the public light. That, regrettably, is the American model.

Over the last four decades, political leaders here at home have committed themselves to incarcerating inmates at rates that ultimately rivaled the former Soviet Union and repressive Middle Eastern regimes. Prisons have grown overcrowded and understaffed.

At the same time, there has been no commensurate commitment to protecting prisoner rights or upholding even minimal standards. Both state and federal legislatures, with the complicity of federal courts, have continually trimmed avenues of legal redress for inmates subject to abuse.

For its part, the public was fed the myth that prisoners were coddled, and accepted on faith that inmates were treated fairly. The public faith was interrupted only when graphic images materialized as evidence or by guards "rolling over."

Regarding Abu Ghraib, testimonial evidence of abuse was reported by no fewer than half a dozen organizations, including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Until photos were shown on "60 Minutes II," though, they were merely allegations and, therefore, not the subject of public concern and remedial action.

So, what has been shown in Abu Ghraib that has not already been seen in the U.S.? Recently, images of cages in which California Youth Authority wards were locked up for as much as 23 hours a day were broadcast. In 2001, Human Rights Watch reported in detail how extensively rape is tolerated in U.S. prisons.

The Eddie Dillard case, in which I represented the inmate, revealed a paper trail with respect to one prolific cell rapist responsible for more than 30 reported incidents of attempted or completed sexual assaults at six different California prisons. Still, the predator was assigned more cellmates.

The accumulated result: A federal district court judge in Northern California has threatened to take over the California Department of Corrections because it can't break the code of silence among its guards and take responsibility for the integrity of its mission.

In the last decade, the department has restricted visits by family and journalists to the remote locations where prisons have been scattered, on the ground that the press might glamorize prison life. Or has it acted to impede reporting of underfunding and abuse?

In the shadow of the infamous Abu Ghraib photographs, it's easy to understand why much of the world looks upon Americans as craven and arrogant.

No less a figure than Winston Churchill famously said that "treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of civilization of any country." If Churchill is right, so, at the moment, are America's critics.
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