Chink in the Armor

[JimHawkins]

My repsonse is that people go to prison all the time and study violence (I mean get reformed ) and they do not come out better people.

The study of learning how to control the, stronger, larger opponent (External) demands that we first control our self (Internal). This is thought to be the true and deepest test/study of our own self perfection and control and the only way to control the opponent. In part the lessons of Chi Sao, learning how to fit in with the opponent means learning how to be honest with yourself.

Bruce Lee wrote:
But to express oneself honestly, without lying to oneself, now that's hard.

The true lessons are to be found in The Study that is the martial study, the journey to find one's true self begins in conflict and in the chaos of combat, we find/perfect ourselves in order to survive.

[Rick Wilson]

Hi All:

The discussion. Certainly some strong feelings being thrown around and John entered expressing his strong feelings. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I also think that it should be expected to elicit strong reactions. AND I think (from John’s reactions) that he did expect the reactions and he has handled them very well.

Dana: Very good points on the criminals etc. I know where you are coming from what I am after is how it is done in a Karate class. The difference between the “death giving sword” and the “life giving sword.”

Ben: You are correct on the reason for the name shift of Karate but it was the Okinawans who decided to change the name. Patrick McCarthy used to have the minutes of the meeting on his web site which was great reading.

[MikeK]

You beat me to it Rick, the first recorded use of Empty Hand was in Karate Shoshu Hen by Chomo Hanashiro in 1905. From what I've read I gather the Okinawans were trying to get karate accepted by the Japanese before Funakoshi settled there. Sounds like Funakoshi was carrying on the work that Itosu had done.

Here's a link to some information http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=135

So I do not believe that getting better at violence will suddenly provoke a spiritual journey towards kindness to your fellow human.

I agree with Dana, in many ways becoming better at violence can lead to a devaluation of human life. At least that's what I've been told by some who have gone there, used those skills and come back out.

Surely Dana you can see the difference between studying violence and experiencing violence ?

IMO there's also accepting violence as a part of life versus embracing violence as a way of life.

[Stryke]

IMO there's also accepting violence as a part of life versus embracing violence as a way of life.

Great stuff Mike

As for the rest

As with anything , the only thing that can inspire improvement or spirituality is the individual .

[Dana Sheets]

Stryke - I did not mean the violence that goes on in prison or within gangs, rather the culture of sharing of knowledge, improved ideas and methods that are shared in the long hours of boredom of prison and the long hours of "hanging out" in gangs.

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I'm not sure what Jim meant by saying that I look down on excessive violence. I look down on violence - period. And at the same time I want to do my best to be able to cope with it without becoming obsessed by it. However looking down on violence is different than denying the existence of violence. Yes, I see violence as the "cheap out" - meaning that reason has given over to force. And until we figure out how to not do that, we will always have violence at our side. And we may never figure that one out.

I also just want to throw out the following thought about "systems" in Okinawa. There is no formal system to swinging a hammer in the US. My father showed me how to use a hammer to pound and pull nails, to break glass, to be used as a wedge, a mini-anvil, a rough chisel, and several other fun tricks. And once or twice he might of mentioned something about getting out of the way and swinging for all you're worth if you happen to have one in your hand when a bad man comes around. However he did not award me a "rank" in hammer. And he did not name his method of teaching hammer. Now - had hammer knowledge become a hot commodity for some reason or another, either due to local festivals with demonstrations, interest from an occupying government, or a group of men willing to pay him to learn what he knows of the hammer...well then he might find a name and might even try to systematize how he transmitted his knowledge.

In Okinawa many people used the oar and long sticks to move their boats or carry water. It is not hard to imagine that those same folks had learned a few tricks on how to defend themselves with those implements. It didn't seem to be a "system" as we would think of it today. There was perhaps someone who knew more tricks than someone else and you might spend some time learning their tricks too. It would just be part of the fabric of life that is shared. Tegumi was part of the fabric of life of Okinawans. Because of the loss of life and the lack of historical records we'll never really know for sure what else was known or learned or incorporated into the fabric of life. We know that elements of Chinese styles and theories were studied by Okinawans who then incorporated that new knowledge into their fabric of life. Their understanding, their bag of tricks. So while "systems" may have alread been in multi-generational development in China, Siam, and mainland Japan - the Okinawans...did their thing.

[Guest]

You mean to tell me that you guys live in communities where the peceived value of karate instruction is $60.00 a month? Aren't you embarrassed?

Frankly, I never did the math. And you left out my son's tuition.

Did you see how much he pays for tuition? He posted that a while back, I almost schit my drawers when I saw that! it's like 150 bux! If I dumped that much cash down a month, for as many years as he has, I would be living in denial also! The McGinny must have been training there since the early 80's! Do the math, 25 years, thats 300 months, multiply that by $150 and you get $45,000.00 !!!!!! HOLY CRAP! That is ALOT OF DOUGH!

What I spent for 25 years of training is also the cost for one year of tuition, room and board at ******** college where my son went for four years.

Considering the bonding and relationship we developed as a father and son during those years of training, and considering my son's continued training in Uechi-ryu, his accomplishments and his goals, in addtion to my own personal benefits, I'd say the money was well spent.

There's nothing wrong with home schooling, there's nothing wrong with a junior college or land grant college. There's nothing wrong with elite institutions either. We've had the best of karate instruction. That's the choices we've made. We are doing well with them!
[/quote]

[Guest]

Actually, $60 canadian is $50.09 US, which is quite reasonable.

[JimHawkins]

I'm not sure what Jim meant by saying that I look down on excessive violence. I look down on violence - period.

Actually I wrote:

Ironic, that I see this same distaste for perceived ‘excessive (focus on) violence’ in the position Dana takes here on this very thread, much like the Japanese of old, looking down on violence and focusing more so on the ‘self cultivation,’ Do or Art aspects of these systems instead of the Martial applications.

However this was due to a cultural bias of 'violent/brutal foreign systems.’

The idea being that MAs are about 'self defense' which can be quite violent...

Karate and Kung-Fu and other similar arts are very simply, violent, when done properly. Dana if you indeed 'look down' on any and all violence then how could or why would you study such a violent art?

I really don't get this dichotomy...

[Dana Sheets]

Violence, as I think of it, doesn't usually occur in the training. Violence, to me, is when one person doesn't care about the physical consequences of their actions on another. I have spent a good deal of time learning how to use force against someone, that is true. The tools of violence.

So there are something like 3-4 things going on here in my mind:
learning the tools of violence
learning about yourself
applying the tools of violence with people you care about
applying the tools of violence with people you don't care about

I could have chosen any path to learn about myself. I could train for triathalons, volunteer at my church, join a meditation group, heck just about anything can be a vehicle for self-discovery if you want it to be. However I chose a study of violence because I felt it had some utilitarian returns. And there will always be a part of me that is a little sad that the world is such that I feel that learning the tools of violence is useful.

To me, when I stop caring about what happens to the person when I apply the tools of violence - that is when violence happens. Then I have either lost control of myself in training - or something bad is happening and my wellbeing or the wellbeing of those around me is at risk and I can see no other option to prevent or end harm to myself or my loved ones except harming someone else.

I would love to develop my skill to the point that I would be able to deal with someone who was trying to hurt me and still care about them - still hold them in my heart as someone misguided who needs help. That whole "when your anger goes out stay your hand when your hand goes out stay your anger" thing. I'm not to that point. Either physically or emotionally.

I want to better understand why others resort to violence when the outcome is so rarely positive.

So maybe I don't have a good answer for you on that one Jim. I'm still working it out.

[benzocaine]

I would love to develop my skill to the point that I would be able to deal with someone who was trying to hurt me and still care about them - still hold them in my heart as someone misguided who needs help. That whole "when your anger goes out stay your hand when your hand goes out stay your anger" thing. I'm not to that point. Either physically or emotionally.

That is the philosophy of Aikido. But of course one step beyond the control moves (if the Aikidoka wants or needs to) is a snapped wrist ,spiral fractured ulnar or radial , broken neck, or some other really bad ending for the Bad Guy.

Was there any written statement of Master Uechi concerning violence? Maybee someone who trained under him could remenice for us.

[Guest]

lost control of myself in training - or something bad is happening and my wellbeing or the wellbeing of those around me is at risk and I can see no other option to prevent or end harm to myself or my loved ones except harming someone else.

Something bad is happening to you Dana, you are creating a "duality" within yourself by practicing martial arts and trying to maintain a moral fiber that was not engineered by yourself (e.g. allowing society to impose it's concept of morality on you as opposed to what is in your own heart, rebel! RISE UP AGAINST THE ENSLAVER!), at the same time. This is a recipe for disaster. As the difference of potential grows, so will your inner-turmoil. Best to come to terms with your true self, the self that brought you to martial arts in the first place and let it all hang out. Yeah, you'll end up with a "salty" personality, but you know you can always count on me to be your friend.

[JimHawkins]

I'm beginning to feel like the evil karate teacher in The Karate Kid...

I appreciate your position Dana, just don’t want to see you suffer for it should the fecal hit the fan blades..

That is the philosophy of Aikido.

That's true. And it is in a sense what is behind the ideals of Shaolin..

Force should not be met head on
Redirecting force is the easy way
Learn more ways to preserve than to destroy
Avoid rather than check
Check rather than hurt
Hurt rather than maim
Maim rather than kill
Kill rather than be killed
All life is precious
No one can replace a life

In some of the Hong Kong styles these virtues were left out.. Maybe they shouldn’t have been..

One hopefully can maintain focus on the martial objectives and still hold life in high esteem. All life is precious but those who enjoy taking away or harming other's well it's hard for me to hold up their existence as anything but a disease, and we all know what you do with a disease..

[Guest]

You mean to tell me that you guys live in communities where the peceived value of karate instruction is $60.00 a month? Aren't you embarrassed?

John why should I be embarassed for charging such a nominal fee? Charging more does not improve the value of instruction to the student.

Sixty bucks a month means I cover my costs, thats the goal to teach not too make a living. I have a ceiling on the # of students in the dojo , I supposed if I accepted more students I could charge half as much. But I feel there would be less one on one instruction and the student would suffer. I'm happy with my method. Should I be embarassed because I have not cashed in on hanging out a Uechi shingle and not tried make a profit from teaching?

I don't need to make a living from my Uechi, I'm quite happy giving it away to those who want it. If I was well heeled I would even charge a fee.

When I trained with Maloney Sensei he charged twenty a month...should he be embarassed ? Jimmy is one of the best and he taught for less than a buck an hour. I don't think recieving such a benifit from Maloney sensei undervalued the quality of what he taught. I don't think anyone perceived his teachings to be of little value. I'm surprised you would think the more you pay for something the better it is. Can I sell you an automobile or a house You are a salesmans dream pal.

If you think spending lots of money some how makes your training more valuable you you should suggest your Sensei doubles or triples your tuition. Just think how good the training would be if you were paying several hundred dollars a month more.

[Guest]

Disclaimer: I have no problem with people making their living teaching martial arts. I also have no problem with people choosing to pay for those services. I could careless what people charge or what people pay.

[Guest]

My first teacher didn't charge me a dime. I just helped him around the house a bit.

I guess he didn't know what he was doing and I got lousy instruction, even though he trained at the famous Brockton dojo.