please tell me about shotokan

[Bill Glasheen]

Well Karate has it's roots in China, No?

That's simplistic at best. The Japanese have a long martial history that's independent of China. So does Okinawa.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Mike

It's the distance thing that I don't like, and also the fact that you are not covered, and by adopting long stances you have limited your options....they may very well train your legs but they restrict your movement.
Keeping your hands low is great for getting sucker punched.and if you only train from what is a very long distance, then that is all you'll be good at...and you'll suffer close in.which is where IMHO most attacks happen...........look at the demonstration tori does a block then takes a big step forward before he punches ..........why doesn't he just throw a right.however on a more positive note..I thought the guy doing the coaching made some excellent points and I would certainly train with him

Ray,
Don't get hung up on the stance.
For example here is someone who does the long stances and traditional movements in his kata and kihon but it doesn't seemed to have hurt him much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzI8JK3H_ms

Also, Shotokan isn't a monolithic style.
We have the more sport based JKA that is into precise kata. Also note that the long stance fits just fine into this type of ippon kumite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0

Sparring in Ohshima's SKA which is a little different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ1drthv0OU

A jiyu kumite seminar for SKA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nELbaZKU ... re=related

Well Karate has it's roots in China, No?

Like Bill said. Shotokan isn't rooted in China, it's karate transplanted from Okinawa and rooted in Japan. It's concepts are Japanese based as are it's principles and emphasis on what's important. It doesn't make it better than a Chinese based art but it doesn't necessarily make it inferior to Chinese arts in regards to effectiveness, sophistication and depth.

[jorvik]

Quote
"That's simplistic at best. The Japanese have a long martial history that's independent of China. So does Okinawa."
Might that be ...dare I say it a strawman argument .....check your history books .the Japanese martil arts ..much like ZEN originated in China....the Katana originated in China..Okinawa is a backwater..a bit like the "Shire".cool and pretty but not where it's at

[Bill Glasheen]

check your history books .the Japanese martil arts ..much like ZEN originated in China....the Katana originated in China..Okinawa is a backwater..a bit like the "Shire".cool and pretty but not where it's at

Provide references, Ray. Otherwise you're just arguing.

Jujutsu (柔術, jūjutsu?) jujutsu.ogg listen (help·info), ("jujitsu") literally meaning the "art of softness," or "way of yielding" is a collective name for Japanese martial art styles including unarmed and armed techniques. Jujutsu evolved among the samurai of feudal Japan as a method for defeating an armed and armored opponent without weapons. Due to the ineffectiveness of striking against an armored opponent, the most efficient methods for neutralizing an enemy took the form of pins, joint locks, and throws. These techniques were developed around the principle of using an attacker's energy against him, rather than directly opposing it.(1)

1. Skoss, Meik (1995). "Jujutsu and Taijutsu". Aikido Journal 103. http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=17

2. Wikipedia

The katana originated in the Muromachi period (1392–1573) as a result of changing battle conditions requiring faster response times. The katana facilitated this by being worn with the blade facing up, which allowed the samurai to draw and cut their enemy in a single motion. Previously, the curved sword of the samurai was worn with the blade facing down. The ability to draw and cut in one motion also became increasingly useful in the daily life of the samurai.(1)

1. Nagayama

2. Wikipedia

Sumo (相撲, sumō?) is a competitive contact sport where a wrestler (rikishi) attempts to force another wrestler out of a circular ring (dohyō) or to touch the ground with anything other than the soles of the feet.The sport originated in Japan, the only country where it is practiced professionally.

- Wikipedia.

Tegumi is a traditional form of wrestling from Okinawa.

***

It is believed by some, Shōshin Nagamine-sensei included, that tegumi was probably the original form of fighting in Okinawa

-Wikipedia

[jorvik]

Quote
"Provide references, Ray. Otherwise you're just arguing. "

Naah.you 're joking me .....this isn't some kinda scholarly discussion board this is a forum.....if you don't believe me.well fair enough.I'm not going around collecting essay for you........do it your self

[Bill Glasheen]

"Provide references, Ray. Otherwise you're just arguing. "

Naah.you 're joking me .....this isn't some kinda scholarly discussion board this is a forum.....if you don't believe me.well fair enough.I'm not going around collecting essay for you........do it your self

I rest my case.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Some clips of Master Shigeru Egami and Shotokai associates.
Where's the stiff block, punch stuff? Not here, these guys are at one extreme of the Shotokan world

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad6bdqsF ... re=related

Watch the body mechanics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5Y1EiFTFDw&NR=1

----------------------------------------------

And just so the JKA guys don't feel left out
Nakayama going over the hand techniques of Shotokan and JKA practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT-A-xLHHNg&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV_8Zx82xEA&NR=1

Compare how the body is used in the videos above the dashes to the ones below. Both sets are of people under the same style, but are quite different.

[MikeK]

Oh dear!

Mitsusuke Harada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf6qJe4_ ... re=related

Hiroyuki Aoki's Shintaido.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-MRUxOgnGo

Wheeeee!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWDHmscnLjk&NR=1

Though I do recognize this as Kanku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZjFQqHF ... re=related

and this a Gankaku... though I think the martial aspects of the kata have been totally removed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR_Z-Qrd ... re=related

Shotokai was one of the extreme ends of Shotokan, these are what happens when you take the extra step past the extreme.

[Jason Rees]

Might that be ...dare I say it a strawman argument .....check your history books .the Japanese martil arts ..much like ZEN originated in China....the Katana originated in China..Okinawa is a backwater..a bit like the "Shire".cool and pretty but not where it's at

Gee.. I really gotta hand it to you, Jorvik. You sure know your stuff.

[IJ]

LMAO at the hippie chisters on the beach. Good times.

[Jason Rees]

I had a good time with that one, too.

[kyushoguy]

Bill if they keep asking the question I'll keep answering.

That is your prerogative, so long as you maintain the proper decorum. We welcome your erudition.

No one here seems to know the history of shotokan apart from me.

We've heard it here before. And I've heard it refuted by those who actually practice and teach Shotokan.

I taught it for 10 years I was a student of Sensei enoeda i also trained under Sensei Kase and shirai. who did you train under in shotokan as you are my main detracter on here Bill I'm guessing no one.
which part of the history i was taught by an okinawan st

There's much hyperbole and venom in your description of Shotokan. I don't know of its origin, and I don't need to know. But I do know inaccurate statements when I see them. I and others will challenge them. That's what we do here.

It would help if you provided references with some of your statements. That way we can assess both the source and its context.

If you are training for a real fight you try to make your training as realisitc as possible.

How realistic are long stances and straight punches?

How realistic is a bench press?

How often do people block in fights?

I'm sure you will tell us.

Meanwhile... I'm betting you have no earthly idea what many of the movements are in Shotokan karate kata. I'm betting you are one of a legion of people who uses the "b" word when describing a third of the techniques in kata. You call yourself "kyushoguy." Where have you been in the kyusho craze of the 1990s? Have you not heard the statement "There are no blocks in karate"? Do you know what the word uke means?

How often do you have the room to do head high kicks in a real fight?

I believe you're talking about Taequondo and not Shotokan. And for that matter, you're confusing sport karate with self-defense. There is a difference, you know. Do you think a boxer envisions himself fighting on the street with 12 ounce gloves?

Do you think Joe Pomfret cared what you think about high kicks when he KOed his opponents with them in the MMA ring? Could you do that? Meanwhile... Joey used to be in the military. He knows how to kill a bad guy.

Do you think Gary Khoury cared what you think about high kicks when he won his many WKF tournaments with them? Could you do that? Meanwhile... Gary is now serving in the military. He posts on these forums. He knows a think or two about how to kill a bad guy.

Why practice punching and kicking the air when you have partners and bags?

Umm.... How realistic is a bag? Are you not aware that the FBI switched from bullseye targets to silhouettes because they are more realistic? Why hit a bag when you can hit Bob?

Two can play this pissing contest. Is it helpful?

As for hitting people, I have some Marine friends who need some meat puppets in Quantico. They'll happily take you and any of your buddies as volunteers. So would my first Japanese karate instructor who loved to hit people. $#^&^*!!!!!

Know what I mean?

why is it importent what a technique looks like?

I don't know... because we want to impress the chicks watching at the side of the gym? A guy's gotta exercise all his legs you know...

This is getting silly, don't you think?

Dojo karate, Dry land swimmers, Point scorers, Air punchers, competition Karate or Self Protection it's your choice.

I highly recommend you read Rory Miller's most recent book. He and others have a very good understanding of why many people do what they do in this vast martial world, and they don't have any delusions over what any one practice will do for them. And for what it's worth, Rory is a professional. He dispatches with bad buys for a living, and teaches others how to do it. He writes and publishes about it.

And he practices a TRADITIONAL martial art. Puts the fancy white pajamas on and everything.

For what it's worth, the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) encourages its participants to practice a TRADITIONAL martial art as part of their program. Hmm... Why would they do that? Do you think a Marine knows a thing or two about how to off somebody?

It isn't helpful to engage in gratuitous bashing. We all have our reasons for doing what we do - not the least of which is we enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it, you're not going to get off your booty and put the years of work in it that it takes to get any good at it. No, not all of us are going to be shipped off to Afghanistan, and we don't handle prisoners for a living. But there's plenty of space out there for all kinds of people to enjoy what they are doing, and learn while they're at it. Serendipity is the operative word here.

- Bill

I taught it for 10 years I was a student of Sensei Enoeda I also trained under Sensei Kase and shirai.

Who did you train under in shotokan as you are my main detracter on here Bill I'm guessing no one.

which part of the history i was taught by an okinawan stusdent of mine.

you obviously have big issues with wht I say none of it is hyperbole or incorrect.

Lol dont get me started on Taekwon do.

But no it is you who are incorrect agin the teachers I trained under were straight out of the JKA. (Shotokan)


I fail to understand how someone with no knowlege of shotokan can argue against me or why you get so het up about it?

Am i touching a nerve here bill.

i'll leave you to berate me more and come out with more inaccuracies regarding shotokan and I lol

tc

[kyushoguy]

Bill if they keep asking the question I'll keep answering.

That is your prerogative, so long as you maintain the proper decorum. We welcome your erudition.

No one here seems to know the history of shotokan apart from me.

We've heard it here before. And I've heard it refuted by those who actually practice and teach Shotokan.


There's much hyperbole and venom in your description of Shotokan. I don't know of its origin, and I don't need to know. But I do know inaccurate statements when I see them. I and others will challenge them. That's what we do here.

It would help if you provided references with some of your statements. That way we can assess both the source and its context.

If you are training for a real fight you try to make your training as realisitc as possible.

How realistic are long stances and straight punches?

How realistic is a bench press?

How often do people block in fights?

I'm sure you will tell us.

Meanwhile... I'm betting you have no earthly idea what many of the movements are in Shotokan karate kata. I'm betting you are one of a legion of people who uses the "b" word when describing a third of the techniques in kata. You call yourself "kyushoguy." Where have you been in the kyusho craze of the 1990s? Have you not heard the statement "There are no blocks in karate"? Do you know what the word uke means?

How often do you have the room to do head high kicks in a real fight?

I believe you're talking about Taequondo and not Shotokan. And for that matter, you're confusing sport karate with self-defense. There is a difference, you know. Do you think a boxer envisions himself fighting on the street with 12 ounce gloves?

Do you think Joe Pomfret cared what you think about high kicks when he KOed his opponents with them in the MMA ring? Could you do that? Meanwhile... Joey used to be in the military. He knows how to kill a bad guy.

Do you think Gary Khoury cared what you think about high kicks when he won his many WKF tournaments with them? Could you do that? Meanwhile... Gary is now serving in the military. He posts on these forums. He knows a think or two about how to kill a bad guy.

Why practice punching and kicking the air when you have partners and bags?

Umm.... How realistic is a bag? Are you not aware that the FBI switched from bullseye targets to silhouettes because they are more realistic? Why hit a bag when you can hit Bob?

Two can play this pissing contest. Is it helpful?

As for hitting people, I have some Marine friends who need some meat puppets in Quantico. They'll happily take you and any of your buddies as volunteers. So would my first Japanese karate instructor who loved to hit people. $#^&^*!!!!!

Know what I mean?

why is it importent what a technique looks like?

I don't know... because we want to impress the chicks watching at the side of the gym? A guy's gotta exercise all his legs you know...

This is getting silly, don't you think?

Dojo karate, Dry land swimmers, Point scorers, Air punchers, competition Karate or Self Protection it's your choice.

I highly recommend you read Rory Miller's most recent book. He and others have a very good understanding of why many people do what they do in this vast martial world, and they don't have any delusions over what any one practice will do for them. And for what it's worth, Rory is a professional. He dispatches with bad buys for a living, and teaches others how to do it. He writes and publishes about it.

And he practices a TRADITIONAL martial art. Puts the fancy white pajamas on and everything.

For what it's worth, the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) encourages its participants to practice a TRADITIONAL martial art as part of their program. Hmm... Why would they do that? Do you think a Marine knows a thing or two about how to off somebody?

It isn't helpful to engage in gratuitous bashing. We all have our reasons for doing what we do - not the least of which is we enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it, you're not going to get off your booty and put the years of work in it that it takes to get any good at it. No, not all of us are going to be shipped off to Afghanistan, and we don't handle prisoners for a living. But there's plenty of space out there for all kinds of people to enjoy what they are doing, and learn while they're at it. Serendipity is the operative word here.

- Bill

I taught it for 10 years I was a student of Sensei Enoeda I also trained under Sensei Kase and shirai.

Who did you train under in shotokan as you are my main detracter on here Bill I'm guessing no one.

which part of the history which i was taught by an okinawan student of mine do you think is wrong and why do you say it is so?

you obviously have big issues with what I say none of it is hyperbole or incorrect.

Lol dont get me started on Taekwon do.

But no it is you who are incorrect again the teachers I trained under were straight out of the JKA. (Shotokan)


I fail to understand how someone with no knowlege of shotokan can argue against me or why you get so het up about it?

Am i touching a nerve here bill.

i'll leave you to berate me more and come out with more inaccuracies regarding shotokan and I lol

tc

[MikeK]

But no it is you who are incorrect again the teachers I trained under were straight out of the JKA. (Shotokan)

And that could be your problem. Seriously. There was and still is a lot of politics in the Shoto-world with a lot of inaccurate histories to serve each group. The JKA is not the entire world of Shotokan (just don't tell them that), though they are a large part of it, and their take on Shotokan's history is not the most accurate. Also some of the Shotokan history only applies to a particular branch and not to all. If you want the real low down on Shotokan history contact Harry Cook.

BTW, Which Okinawan gave you the inside scoop on Shotokan?

[MikeK]

Here is some early film of Nakayama of the JKA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKdmTonRwJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWVROgQI ... re=related

Here is a pretty good film of Enoeda and Nakayama doing Bassai and it's techniques. Nice, practical and in close techniques that also show some uses for those long stances. Hint: It's leg against leg. Where did these go that we get fanciful oyo theses days?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhooy5dZ ... re=related