is it as good as it could be or does the emphasis on point sparrig hurt it.
and are there ways to train the essences of karate or kung fu or kenpo with shotokan with maybe less of an influence on point sparring?
can u please tell me about the Chinese connection, and the okinawan connections
and the connections to goju, naha te, shuri te, tomari te, uechi, tai chi, and whatever else?
How can i maximize my ability and understanding in shotokan? How can i make it dynamic, alive, applicable, and flowing?
thanks to all the elders and practitioners of all these arts. I look forward to learning, growing and teaching
please tell me about shotokan
Moderator: Available
-
kyushoguy
Shotokan
Shotokan was the Okinawan Schoolboy Karate developed by Master Itosu and taught by the eklderly school teacher funakoshi. both emphasised non violence and the idea that fighting is bad etiquate.(sp) lol
It was given to their overlords the Japanese when they requested to learn Karate.
Obviously the Okinawans wouldn't give the Japanese the art they developed to defend themselves against them.
so they gave them the kids version.
Unfortunately the Middle class Japanese who were taught this then spread it round the world after watering it down even further and making it as you say point scoring karate.
So Shotokan is in essence Childrens No Contact Competition Karate!
To make sense of it you have to reverse engineer or give the kata etc your own meaning or learn a real self protection system in the first place.
It was given to their overlords the Japanese when they requested to learn Karate.
Obviously the Okinawans wouldn't give the Japanese the art they developed to defend themselves against them.
so they gave them the kids version.
Unfortunately the Middle class Japanese who were taught this then spread it round the world after watering it down even further and making it as you say point scoring karate.
So Shotokan is in essence Childrens No Contact Competition Karate!
To make sense of it you have to reverse engineer or give the kata etc your own meaning or learn a real self protection system in the first place.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Hello, chalkdust.
Just as a bit of a background... Kyushoguy has posted here before, and doesn't have a very high opinion of Shotokan. Meanwhile, some of the better fighters I've ever met are members of Tsutomu Ohshima's Shotokan Karate of America. These people aren't just good; they are scary good.
I'm only vaguely familiar with the origins of Shotokan, but it all comes from Gichin Funakoshi. As I understand it, he studied Okinawans Shorin Ryu, and possible some Goju Ryu as well. (Shuri te and Naha te). You can find Shotokan kata that are virtually identical to their Okinawan karate roots.
Is it any good? It's all in the knowledge and execution of the individual. Even if a style has humble origins, it can grow with time and be as legitimate as any other martial art with the "proper" pedigree. It's silly to play the "Your style sux" game. That's just uninformed at best. Check out Tsutomu Oshima's broad martial background; that says it all. He was a mixed martial artist back when many critics of Shotokan were in diapers. Almost all grappling methods today used in the MMA ring have their origins in Japanese grappling arts. Oshima has been there, done that. A martial artist with a grappling foundation will have a very, very different view of traditional Okinawan kata. Most of this is lost on the modern karate "striker" who is ignorant of the tegumi roots of Okinawa te.
Points sparring? It is what it is. It's one way to jump into a jiyu or freeform format. To the extent that it helps individuals learn to act and react spontaneously and creatively, it's a good thing. To the extent that it begins to ingrain techniques that are more about the point and less about martial effectiveness, it's not so good. It's one of many, many teaching tools. Take it for what it is, but don't make a big deal about it. Over time you'll evolve with and beyond it.
More later.
- Bill
Just as a bit of a background... Kyushoguy has posted here before, and doesn't have a very high opinion of Shotokan. Meanwhile, some of the better fighters I've ever met are members of Tsutomu Ohshima's Shotokan Karate of America. These people aren't just good; they are scary good.
I'm only vaguely familiar with the origins of Shotokan, but it all comes from Gichin Funakoshi. As I understand it, he studied Okinawans Shorin Ryu, and possible some Goju Ryu as well. (Shuri te and Naha te). You can find Shotokan kata that are virtually identical to their Okinawan karate roots.
Is it any good? It's all in the knowledge and execution of the individual. Even if a style has humble origins, it can grow with time and be as legitimate as any other martial art with the "proper" pedigree. It's silly to play the "Your style sux" game. That's just uninformed at best. Check out Tsutomu Oshima's broad martial background; that says it all. He was a mixed martial artist back when many critics of Shotokan were in diapers. Almost all grappling methods today used in the MMA ring have their origins in Japanese grappling arts. Oshima has been there, done that. A martial artist with a grappling foundation will have a very, very different view of traditional Okinawan kata. Most of this is lost on the modern karate "striker" who is ignorant of the tegumi roots of Okinawa te.
Points sparring? It is what it is. It's one way to jump into a jiyu or freeform format. To the extent that it helps individuals learn to act and react spontaneously and creatively, it's a good thing. To the extent that it begins to ingrain techniques that are more about the point and less about martial effectiveness, it's not so good. It's one of many, many teaching tools. Take it for what it is, but don't make a big deal about it. Over time you'll evolve with and beyond it.
More later.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
For what it's worth, I am a nidan in Goju Ryu. At one time I could do all the kata, yakusoku kumite and bunkai kumite of the Shorei Kai Goju Ryu system except one.
Goju is all over the map. I suggest you seek out Okinawan Goju Ryu if you are interested, but that's just a generalization. I am not fond of those who do Goju Sanchin as if they're having an asthma attack and stroke combined. Dragon breathing? Absolutely. Gargling and spitting while veins expand in the face? That's just a silly ego display.
I will say that I learned more Uechi Ryu martial applications from a Judo/aikido/Okinawan Goju practitioner than I learned in the very strict confines of the Uechi system. We share common roots, although Goju has defanged the Uechi snake. There is much to learn from very good traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu - particularly if you find someone who understands its grappling roots.
Check out the teacher. That's were it all starts.
- Bill
Goju is all over the map. I suggest you seek out Okinawan Goju Ryu if you are interested, but that's just a generalization. I am not fond of those who do Goju Sanchin as if they're having an asthma attack and stroke combined. Dragon breathing? Absolutely. Gargling and spitting while veins expand in the face? That's just a silly ego display.
I will say that I learned more Uechi Ryu martial applications from a Judo/aikido/Okinawan Goju practitioner than I learned in the very strict confines of the Uechi system. We share common roots, although Goju has defanged the Uechi snake. There is much to learn from very good traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu - particularly if you find someone who understands its grappling roots.
Check out the teacher. That's were it all starts.
- Bill
-
jorvik
I pretty much agree with Kyoshuguy..........shotokan is very big in my area, so much so that it has influenced the Goju.and folks are in these silly long stances 
..............Why do they do them 
.get in a right zenkutsu dachi and you can't kick off your front leg, you can't punch of your lead hand...so what is the point ......folks say it's a powerful style , but all the power is going into the ground.not into your enemy......it sux better than gravity..but I don't think that it was down to Funakoshi..it was the tampering of his son Gigo and Nakayama that made shotokan what it is...............Oyama didn't think highly of it.but then again I don't think highly of Oyama 
..............Why do they do them .get in a right zenkutsu dachi and you can't kick off your front leg, you can't punch of your lead hand...so what is the point ......folks say it's a powerful style , but all the power is going into the ground.not into your enemy......it sux better than gravity..but I don't think that it was down to Funakoshi..it was the tampering of his son Gigo and Nakayama that made shotokan what it is...............Oyama didn't think highly of it.but then again I don't think highly of Oyama the long stances develop the muscles in the legs and the understanding of tandien and ground connection and balance and stuff like that.
so what ma should one be practicing. what does it mean that goju defaged the uechi snake?
how about shaolin goju?
what is that?
do u know of this school?
http://gallopskarate.com/
so what ma should one be practicing. what does it mean that goju defaged the uechi snake?
how about shaolin goju?
what is that?
do u know of this school?
http://gallopskarate.com/
-
jorvik
Quote
"the long stances develop the muscles in the legs and the understanding of tandien and ground connection and balance and stuff like that.
No they don't.they stop you fighting to your full potential..total waste of time
Quote
"how about shaolin goju? "
No such thing............. Goju is okinawan......Shaolin is Chinese..........BTW sorry if I come across as a bit abrupt
..it's how I am 
"the long stances develop the muscles in the legs and the understanding of tandien and ground connection and balance and stuff like that.
No they don't.they stop you fighting to your full potential..total waste of time
Quote
"how about shaolin goju? "
No such thing............. Goju is okinawan......Shaolin is Chinese..........BTW sorry if I come across as a bit abrupt
..it's how I am hmmm.
can u explain how they dont do any of those things?
why wouldnt low stances develop some kind of balance/gravity center/body connection/ understanding?
i thought karate was to train attributes that went deeper than the actual technique or stance being used to train those attributes....
long fist kung fu has even longer and deeper stances than that right?
well is there a good school for martial arts in the tallahassee florida area?
there is an alliance BJJ school
what about this?
someone teaches this on sundays:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan
can u explain how they dont do any of those things?
why wouldnt low stances develop some kind of balance/gravity center/body connection/ understanding?
i thought karate was to train attributes that went deeper than the actual technique or stance being used to train those attributes....
long fist kung fu has even longer and deeper stances than that right?
well is there a good school for martial arts in the tallahassee florida area?
there is an alliance BJJ school
what about this?
someone teaches this on sundays:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan
-
jorvik
Quote
"can u explain how they dont do any of those things?
why wouldnt low stances develop some kind of balance/gravity center/body connection/ understanding?
i thought karate was to train attributes that went deeper than the actual technique or stance being used to train those attributes.... "
there are better methods.punching pads , lifting weights etc....and even in traditional martial arts there are better methods.....believe it or not, some folks actually think that those long stances are some kind of tactic for fighting .but the old adage GIGO ......" garbage in, garbage out " serves well here 
"can u explain how they dont do any of those things?
why wouldnt low stances develop some kind of balance/gravity center/body connection/ understanding?
i thought karate was to train attributes that went deeper than the actual technique or stance being used to train those attributes.... "
there are better methods.punching pads , lifting weights etc....and even in traditional martial arts there are better methods.....believe it or not, some folks actually think that those long stances are some kind of tactic for fighting
.but the old adage GIGO ......" garbage in, garbage out " serves well here -
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Behave, Ray. You know that style bashing is frowned upon here.
I am well aware that Shotokan has penetrated the European martial arts community pretty deeply. Not so much here; we have Taequondo everywhere. I'm sure there's a bit of style jealousy involved.
As for deep stances... I'd like to remind folks that Uechi Ryu starts with shallow stances and goes to deeper stances in its most advanced forms. Those are all about covering ground. This is where Shotokan does very well. They don't mess around with "small ball." They penetrate from afar and dispatch with the opponent as quickly as possible. Major, massive, instant shut-down, often ignoring the chaff on the way in. That's the kind of mindset you need in self-defense when the probability of something bad happening goes up exponentially with the time it takes for you to get the job done. This is especially true in many-on-one situations.
I'm very sorry you don't have good Shotokan where you are, Ray. You just have to see good practice to understand how good it can be. When a Shotokan practitioner knows his stuff, it's as effective as any other street style.
I'm sure Van can tell us about the old days where there were few rules in the sparring ring. Shotokan dominated back then.
- Bill
I am well aware that Shotokan has penetrated the European martial arts community pretty deeply. Not so much here; we have Taequondo everywhere. I'm sure there's a bit of style jealousy involved.
As for deep stances... I'd like to remind folks that Uechi Ryu starts with shallow stances and goes to deeper stances in its most advanced forms. Those are all about covering ground. This is where Shotokan does very well. They don't mess around with "small ball." They penetrate from afar and dispatch with the opponent as quickly as possible. Major, massive, instant shut-down, often ignoring the chaff on the way in. That's the kind of mindset you need in self-defense when the probability of something bad happening goes up exponentially with the time it takes for you to get the job done. This is especially true in many-on-one situations.
I'm very sorry you don't have good Shotokan where you are, Ray. You just have to see good practice to understand how good it can be. When a Shotokan practitioner knows his stuff, it's as effective as any other street style.
I'm sure Van can tell us about the old days where there were few rules in the sparring ring. Shotokan dominated back then.
- Bill
All I can say is I am confident that my sensei knows how to get me good at what shotokan has to offer. We have intense workouts, and I workout with two brown belts, a green belt, and occasional black belts who drop in. I lift some weights, (dont have much time for this) do core exercises, run, pull ups, knuckle push ups, and I want to start doing serious bag work.
I also do a some capoeira.
One day I will return to uechi, but it is not being offered where I live and I am sure Roy is too busy to teach and I am probably not ready for what he has to offer at my level anyway...
My Sensei thinks highly of Roy, very highly, he said that he fought Roy's sensei several times, back in the days of old and he implied that he did a very good job going against him. Probably because he oculd tell that I was enamored by uechi and its traditional chinese roots.
He has been pushing me harder, punching and blocking me with much force and hitting me and stepping on my legs to test stances. He has started getting more "hardcore" with me, partly because he can tell that I dont really trust shotokan.
I also do a some capoeira.
One day I will return to uechi, but it is not being offered where I live and I am sure Roy is too busy to teach and I am probably not ready for what he has to offer at my level anyway...
My Sensei thinks highly of Roy, very highly, he said that he fought Roy's sensei several times, back in the days of old and he implied that he did a very good job going against him. Probably because he oculd tell that I was enamored by uechi and its traditional chinese roots.
He has been pushing me harder, punching and blocking me with much force and hitting me and stepping on my legs to test stances. He has started getting more "hardcore" with me, partly because he can tell that I dont really trust shotokan.
jorvik, I dont think they are very good for practical fighting, but every now and then it would be great in contact sparring to pull off a beautiful long deep chambered punch or roundhouse kick out of the shotokan lexicon!
My Sensei keeps stressing the importance of ankle, knee and hip flexibility as well as an understanding of core (tan dien) and kime (focus and release and charging of focus, energy, power, tension and lack of tension, which is allrelated to the breath!!!)
My Sensei keeps stressing the importance of ankle, knee and hip flexibility as well as an understanding of core (tan dien) and kime (focus and release and charging of focus, energy, power, tension and lack of tension, which is allrelated to the breath!!!)
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
There is a school of thought - shared by my Goju teacher - that says you should learn techniques big and deep, and then let them get smaller and shallow with practical application. Why? Because under stress everything gets smaller anyway, and the stances are likely to become more shallow. Additionally, concepts like the use of the core are difficult to teach in Sanchin, but much easier to teach in the styles like Shotokan. Nakamatsu is a Uechi practitioner in Okinawa who is big on teaching the use of the core in Sanchin. He starts out very, very big until you get it. Then you're supposed to make it smaller and smaller until it looks like nothing more than a body shiver.chalkdust wrote:
My Sensei keeps stressing the importance of ankle, knee and hip flexibility as well as an understanding of core (tan dien) and kime (focus and release and charging of focus, energy, power, tension and lack of tension, which is allrelated to the breath!!!)
- Bill
