Chink in the Armor

[Guest]

Sorry to high jack the thread!

So back to it. John, it's great there are some tough folks in the style. Cool your proud of and respect your sensei.Great you respect and revear some of our uechika icons in the east.

But their feats are not yours. Their feats do not include beating a boxer in a fight do they? So I'm confused why you drop the names.

If you believe Uechi would prevail against boxing thats fine. If you state it publicly then one would expect more to suport it than keyboard strokes. Simple question for you sir...have YOU squared off with a boxer with comperable time in training? How did you fair?

No offence, but I think your guilty of blowing smoke up our kilts. You claim our system is superior to boxing, that Uechika would defeat boxers. So maybe you can come up with a few examples , otherwise it smacks of martial fantasy.

I personaly only know of one Uechika who did well in the boxing ring. One of Jimmy's students, Ralph Hollett. Did well in tournaments, did well in the PKA. He went on to fight for the world title as a supermiddle weight in the professional kick boxing association. He also held the Canadian middle weight boxing title. Ralph did well in all fight venues he explored. But he never beat a boxer with karate

Hopefully you can give us some examples John. So far we have karate guys beating karate guys, and some tough masters taking good shots standing still. neither of which support your original claim.

[f.Channell]

Laird,
You damn near killed me with the Hulk comment.

F.

[Guest]

Fred I know I can kick his ass....he's green he's not feeling well.

I may be older than him, but I'm healthier.

[Rick Wilson]

John:

Please don’t get the wrong idea because we are sceptical about the prowess of all Uechika. The folk posting here from Bill to Tony to Lair and yes that NZ convert Marcus are all exploring Uechi and devoted Uechika.

I believe whole heartedly in Uechi as a self protection system. I think it is the best thing around. But don’t dismiss the other guys who may train hard and maybe even harder than some Uechika.

For instance – shokens. Do you use them in conditioning? I really mean do you hit folk with them?

I mean no offence.

I ask this because we do.

And when one very excellent Uechika we train with used them for the first time in our conditioning drills he hurt his hand more than he did us because he had never actually used one before and reality causes some adjustments in how you might make it (this is often a little different for each person.)

So I ask this because when we first started to actually use them we quickly learned that a well trained shoken worked exceptionally well but a poorly trained shoken does not work well at all.

So for me it comes back to training.

I am a firm believer in the pointy weapons of Uechi Ryu but only if you train them.

Uechi rocks but watch out for that guy with the rock in his hand doing Rock Bash Ryu.

[Stryke]

First off , back on track , I know some guys here use humour and some might find it offensive .

apologys if anyone feels slighted , it`s not the intent to ridicule anyone just some common claims .

In theory any art can claim to defeat another , it`s a slippery slope . I beleive probably nearly any art can defeat another , there will of course be personal and factual Biases .

I truly beleive a jumping spinning 720 round kick can take out anyone , if timed perfectly , executed perfectly , and if the winds blowing the right way .

the fact is the individual will have to make it work , and worse the opponent has to give the oppurtunity for it to work .

I think a Uechi pointy thing may even be more likely to work , I just wish I could use my toes like some can .

almost everyone who`s posted on this thread has looked at boxing , some have trained it , some have just fought/sparred boxers , Nothing wrong with Uechi , but boxings High percentage IMHO .

And where the heck is Jorvik when you need him , He`s going to have a coronory seeing me defend boxing

[Rick Wilson]

Boxing is solid stuff.

[Guest]

To answer Jim's question, I have actually experimented with the deadly techniques of karate. I cracked a Juko Kai guy across the windpipe with a deadly ridge hand strike, not once, BUT TWICE! Seems the first one wasn't powerful enough! Then I punched him in the adams apple while 3 of my friends hit him on other parts of his neck. he bowed and thanked us for giving it our best. Then I kicked the guy, right square in the throat, and to my surprise, he still wasn't dead. He had enough life in him to get up, bow and thank me for at least trying.

Ok, soooo.... I learned my lesson. I know beating people up works because i've done it before, so at that point, that is where my emphasis went, no more deadly karate strikes for me. Call me a naysayer if you want, but I speak from experience, i'm not relying on techniques that I don't have any confidence in.

[JimHawkins]

This would include things like techniques which worked beautifully in the dojo, but failed on the street because they relied too much on fine and/or complex motor coordination, and they didn't have the ability to control their stress response.

This begs the question:

What does "techniques which worked beautifully in the dojo," mean?

Just this statement raises lots of red flags IMO. Works in the dojo means almost nothing without specific qualification.

The main problem with any 'technique' is that it must work naturally and in the chaos of combat... Unless something, a concept or technique, works repeatedly in the chaos of combat against skilled fighters then there is no clear proof that it works at all. Even then one must find out if it works for him, or you, the individual.

But as we reject the stupid things taught to us by those who don't understand the material

Still waiting to see who it is that 'understands the material.' Even the highest ranking folks in Uechi do not agree and some fully acknowledge that very little of the kata are truly known or understood.

This is a phenomena much more common in Japanese styles and much less so in other styles, found elsewhere.

To wit:

What is a system?

A system is defined as:

A system is an assemblage of inter-related elements comprising a unified whole.

Do these statements speak of a system?

It will take more time before many will re-discover how smart their elders were...

This speaks of a long discovery process that will eventually come together.

Is it a combat system or a combat search?

Where did Joe learn that roundhouse kick? Probably indirectly from all that experimentation going on at Cambridge and Hancock - the old Mattson Academy. That was quite an eclectic bunch!

Again success with the outside components. Where is the system in all of this? Is Uechi a ‘general contractor’ of martial systems?

Folks like Bobby Campbell copied other arts as easily as you and I drive to work. And that "general knowledge" permeated the entire community.

Are folks training a system or a search? Clearly folks are searching outside the ‘system’ for something and building on external (non Uechi) sources... Why?

And this:

The thing that I like to tell people about Uechi's style (and some other martial arts as well) is that it's a blank slate. With its parsimonious three kata, most anything you want to do with your body in a fight can be found in some motion somewhere in the forms.

You never see this kind of a statement written about Boxing, Kick Boxing, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, or even Wrestling, etc.. This is because those systems state specifically what they are and how they work and most importantly they teach a clear path that reveals all the details of the system and any forms, eliminating the need to search for such basic core system information.

If it means everything then how can it mean anything?

[JimHawkins]

The point I mentioned about strategy has generally been overlooked. Through first hand observation, James Human observed that the Australian figherst were supurbly conditioned Uechi fighters who incorporated many Thai kickboxing training techniques and offensive weapons but perhaps at the expense of developing their abdominal and upper body conditioning to the same high degree as their ability to break bats and punch the walls. His superior strategy was to attack the relative weaknesses and not be a standup stay still bat in the rack!

What does this have to do with Boxing?

Despite the original post comparing Boxing and Uechi I submit it is not a valid comparison. Boxing is a sport. The real discussion should be about what similar, if any, attributes that are cultivated in each system and compare them.

Since Boxing is a sport with rules that do not allow kicking, saying that Uechi is better because a Uechi-ka would simply take out a Boxer with a kick is like saying that Uechi Master X would loose in a match with a good high school wrestler since Uechi-ka do not normally train wrestling and therefore wrestling is a 'better' martial art.

Most TMA if and when we spar with Boxers we DO NOT USE KICKS... Imagine that... Can you imagine why not? If you want to compare Uechi with Boxing then compare it where it matches up: In striking range! Otherwise, the issue is better addressed with a comparison of Uechi and Kick Boxing or similar arts.

[MikeK]

Are folks training a system or a search? Clearly folks are searching outside the ‘system’ for something and building on external (non Uechi) sources... Why?

I don't think everyone teaches a system, some just teach systematically. Most open end combative styles that I've seen don't seem to be as concerned with the completeness of any style but are concerned with the completeness of the fighter.

You never see this kind of a statement written about Boxing, Kick Boxing, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, or even Wrestling, etc.. This is because those systems state specifically what they are and how they work and most importantly they teach a clear path that reveals all the details of the system and any forms, eliminating the need to search for such basic core system information.

That's very easy to answer, those forms of fighting are based upon a specific rule set, and are essentially closed systems. They have specific agreed upon goals and agreed upon methods to achieve them.

[Dana Sheets]

Most TMA if and when we spar with Boxers we DO NOT USE KICKS... Imagine that... Can you imagine why not? If you want to compare Uechi with Boxing then compare it where it matches up: In striking range! Otherwise, the issue is better addressed with a comparison of Uechi and Kick Boxing or similar arts.

I'm not sure Jim (or anyone else) is in a position to speak for TMA practitioners world-wide and their training practices.

Are folks familiar with Shoshin Nagamine of Shorin-ryu and his text "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters" as translated by Patrick McCarthy? At the very end of his book is the speech he gave in Hawai'i when his enlightenment in Zen was acknowledged. In that speech he discusses the role of karate in world peace with utter sincerity.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 2?v=glance

He also says in the book that one cannot extract the self-improvement aspects of the karate training from the combatives training. For as Master Nagamine says in his book:
"Martial arts without virtue is simply violence"

In the Okinawan tradition of karate students were shown the fundamentals of study and encourged to spend a great deal of time on those fundaments. Once they were mastered the student was shown a principle and expected to explore how they could apply that principle. So yes - we are talking about a search. In this tradition students are not spoon fed every step of knowledge that exists.

Jim previously posted a quote that said something along the lines of in Chinese TMA a teacher will a show student three corners of the room and expect the student to find the fourth while a Japanese teacher will show a student one corner of the room and expect the student can find the other three corners. However you could reframe the second half of this quote by saying the Japanese/Okinawan teachers gets out of the way so the student can find the other three corners and perhaps four more corners the teacher never found himself. By showing less a teacher can encourage the student to learn to explore so the student does not mimic. Instead the students keeps their eyes fresh and open to possibility. The greatest burden of learning is placed on the student.

This is obviously not the fastest way to make fighter. But the fighting skills were not the primary goal in Okinawa. The Okinawans were and are not a people who hurry. They are a people who enter deeply through small doors. They are, historically, a peaceful people. So seen through this lens - Okinawan Karate training is not going to be chock-full of step-by-step guidance and progression that makes a super fighter with the greatest efficiency. The teacher does not hold the hand of the student through every step. The search is indeed a part of the system.

[Guest]

Thread has taken an interesting twist.

Jim I cross train in other systems because I believe all is not in Uechi like some of my breathern. In fact I do no believe any one system has all the answers reguardless of what they may tell you.

My next cross training adventure (This September) puts me in Mike McGuires capable hands.

Mike offers a 2 day course he calls tactical options. During the course he covers:

Empty hand Combatives
P.P.C.T.
Impact Weapons
Edged Weapons
Defensive Firearms.

Not many courses start empty hand and transition thru the force continum ending on the range. Can't get most of this in a Uechi kata I've had the pleasure of training with Mike in the past, we did some edged weapons training. He's a great instuctor to work with. I'm counting the days!

I explore lots of throws and locks that are in my kata, it has created a desire to improve those skills so quin na and judo are of interest in cross training.

I disagree with some of my seniors I don't think Uechi is a strong system on the ground....therefore BJJ is a a solution to improve upon my weakness.

I have no problems exploring other systems. Uechi is a great system, I think it is exceptional in a specific range, a range most fights transition through. it is my base or point of reference. I may use boxing as an entry and uechi as a control and finish. For me I have no hang ups on where the moves come from.

My goal is survival, I'll train with who ever can improve my chances.

[JimHawkins]

Most TMA if and when we spar with Boxers we DO NOT USE KICKS...

I'm not sure Jim (or anyone else) is in a position to speak for TMA practitioners world-wide and their training practices.

Quite correct..

I did not mean to speak for all TMA, only those who wished to conduct a valid test of comparable skills with boxers.

Jim previously posted a quote that said something along the lines of in Chinese TMA a teacher will a show student three corners of the room and expect the student to find the fourth while a Japanese teacher will show a student one corner of the room and expect the student can find the other three corners. However you could reframe the second half of this quote by saying the Japanese/Okinawan teachers gets out of the way so the student can find the other three corners and perhaps four more corners the teacher never found himself. By showing less a teacher can encourage the student to learn to explore so the student does not mimic.

A nice thought Dana but it doesn't hold water with me.

Could top universities expect to bolster respect in academia by proclaiming that they were going to do away with three quarters of the core curriculum in favor of students exploring and studying what they want, how they want, when they want..?

Would an army preparing troops for hand to hand combat elect to leave the last three quarters of training time for the students to explore on their own?

In the old days would a "MA Master" - Father not wish to pass on all of his available martial knowledge to his only son in hopes of his son having the best chances of survival?

There is always a million fold of study in any subject, especially martial arts to keep one busy for their entire life, learning new 'secrets' I assure you there is no shortage of details to discover or nuances to explore no matter how complete the base.


We must realize that in all styles of martial arts, masters are known for keeping as much knowledge compared to that knowledge they pass on. There were very good reasons for this... Not the least of which was personal and family survival and property - there was always only one full disciple

There is no art today that has not suffered from this effect. Some arts intended to be passed on for military training or sport are much more intact, others less so.

There is never such as thing as too much knowledge or understanding; Just as there is no such thing as an end to learning.

[JimHawkins]

They have specific agreed upon goals and agreed upon methods to achieve them.

I agree. But that goal can be very open ended indeed.

Yet a system is only closed when exploration ceases and I am aware of no martial art that advocates stagnation at any stage, certainly not mine as it created the original 'mixed martial artist...'

[Guest]

I have no problems exploring other systems. Uechi is a great system

Uechi Ryu is a great system, it's the leadership that stinks. There are some teachers out there preventing the style from evolving into what it needs to be for this century. Those teachers need to be id'd and isolated from everyone else.

The tell-tale sign of an "inert" practioner is "Thats not Uechi". If you hear that, walk away for good and also post it on the forums so everyone else knows who they are.