Chink in the Armor

[MikeK]

This emphasis change DID occur but let's be clear that this only happened as a result of "Japanification" and mass marketing and export of what was one of the only commodities that could be sold at the time this phenomena began after WWII. Folks must recognize the difference and the reality of the intent of the original creators and founders of these Martial systems.

Pet peeve of mine with the "Japanification" thing. For some reason we forget these are the people who brought us the katana, jujutsu and conquered a large chunk of Asia during the early part of the last century. The Japanese knew martial better than just about anybody around at that time.

[Oldfist]

RachelLB:

Quote
'Master Funakoshi described the new notion of karate in the following manner. "Karate is not only the acquisition of certain defensive skills, but also the mastering of the art of being a good and honest member of society." This statement indicates the importance of self-improvement and contribution to a better society. No longer could "good" karate be defined simply as a fast punch or powerful kick. Qualities of character were also now a part of the equation. This concept is captured concisely by Funakoshi's statement that "Karate begins and ends with courtesy.'
end quote

Something to think about....

Much respect, Rachel

Rachel, good point ! I agree it definitely is something to think about and a choice whether or not to embrace it.

BTW, I see this is your second post, and in Bill's absence, I would like to welcome you to these forums, and encourage you to post some more !!

Best wishes,

[Dana Sheets]

However there was a "simplification" of many Okinawan martial arts when they were taught in the Japanese school system. Closed fists, longer deeper stances, broken up counts, etc. It is, in fact, how we ended up with sport karate.

But IMO there is no more or less of a connection to virtuosity in MA than in any other activity. This is a given IMO.

It can be there or not be there depending on what you want and how you train. Basketball and basketweaving can both be spiritual journeys if you think about them that way.

What I'm saying is that in the Okinawan karate tradition - thinking about self-improvement was a big part of the "original recipe." Kanbun Uechi founded a Buddhist society at the same time he opened the Wakayama dojo. That's in the big blue book. The members of the former and the latter were the same people. The Wakayama dojo was opened two years before Funakoshi opened his first school. According to Alan Dollar's book Kanbun was approached to teach in the schools several times but always refused. Why he refused we'll never know. When Kanbun Uechi opened second, larger dojo he incorporated the founding principles of the Buddhist society into the the principles of the dojo.

For whatever reason - at the turn of the 20th century in Okinawa there was melding of Buddhist beliefs and empty handed training - this was carried to Japan and easily embraced by the Japanese who were already familiar with the concepts from Zen Buddhism. Empty handed training had existed on Okinawa since the 17th century in particular in the form of the Okinawan Sumo or "Tegumi." Most young men of the era did Tegumi in addition to whatever else they were doing at the time. The tegumi included locks, throws, and takedowns but not striking. So there is a small possibility (and indulge me here I'm postulating) that there was no need to teach the locks, throws, and takedowns in the setting of the karate training pre-WWII because the young men of Okinawa were already doing that stuff when they did Tegumi.

Post WW-II the world was a changing place, Okinawa needed to rebuild their entire society, Americans at first banned karate training altogether, and then later once the ban was lifted those who still continued to practice found themselves in a very different world from the one before the war.

And I'm not speaking to the Chinese traditions because I don't know them. I'm talking about what I know of the Okinawan traditions and their history. And I'm not an expert or profound researcher. This is just my understanding from reading texts about and by Okinawans.

And yes - this is karate-do vs kenpo-jutsu. It is not something inherent in just doing the training. It is a conscious choice on the part of the practitioner to use the training as a vehicle for self-improvement.

In fact you can take it all the way back to the legend of Sanchin. That the form was developed to build the bodies of the young men in the temple so they would be better able to sit and meditate in order to seek enlightenment.

And you can throw it all out the window if you like and just train fighting. Fine by me if that makes you happy.

Personally, I've probably made more progress on self-improvement in karate training than I've made in fighting ability in karate training. That makes me happy because the fighting ability is a secondary goal for me. But that's me. I don't expect that to be everyone.

[MikeK]

So there is a small possibility (and indulge me here I'm postulating) that there was no need to teach the locks, throws, and takedowns in the setting of the karate training pre-WWII because the young men of Okinawa were already doing that stuff when they did Tegumi.

Same with Japanese karate. In Ohsima's book Notes on Training he states that since most of the students had exposure to Judo they didn't train the takedowns much.

However there was a "simplification" of many Okinawan martial arts when they were taught in the Japanese school system. Closed fists, longer deeper stances, broken up counts, etc. It is, in fact, how we ended up with sport karate.

Dana, I think those changes were made by Anko Itosu when he was trying to introduce karate into the Okinawan school systems. I've read on theory that the changes may have been influenced by European military training that was going on during that period. Also I don't think those changes led to sport karate as they seem opposite of how sport karate looks, except for the closed hand of course. I know Nakayama added the sport element to his branch of Shotokan but others didn't.

Ten Precepts of Karate
Karate did not develop from Buddhism or Confucianism. In the past the Shorin School and the Shorei school were brought here from China. Both of these schools have strong points, which I will now mention before there are too many changes.

1. Karate is not merely practiced for your own benefit: it can be used to protect one's family or master. It is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding a fight should one be confronted by a villain or ruffian.

2. The purpose of Karate is to make the muscles and bones hard as rock and to use the hands and legs as spears. If children were to begin training in China Hand while in elementary school, then they will be well suited for military service. Remember the words of the Duke of Wellington after he defeated Napoleon: "Our victory here today was achieved in our school yards."

3. Karate cannot be quickly learned. Like a slow moving bull, it eventually travels a thousand miles. If one trains diligently everyday, then in three or four years one will come to understand Karate.

Those who train in this fashion will discover Karate.

4. In Karate training of the hands and feet are important, so one must be thoroughly trained on the makiwara (striking post). In order to do this, drop your shoulders, open your lungs, take hold of your strength, grip the floor with your feet and sink your energy into your lower abdomen. Practice using each arm one to two hundred times each day.

5. When one practices the stances of China Hand, be sure to keep your back straight, lower your shoulders, put strength in your legs, stand firmly and drop your energy into your lower abdomen.

6. Practice each of the techniques of Karate repeatedly, the use of which is passed by word of mouth. Learn the explanations well and decide when and in what manner to apply them when needed. Enter, counter, release is the rule of releasing hand (torite).

7. You must decide if Karate is for your health or to aid your duty.

8. When you train, do so as if on the battlefield. Your eyes should glare, shoulders drop, and body harden.. You should always train with intensity and spirit and in this way you will naturally be ready.

9. One must not overtrain; this will cause you to lose the energy in your lower abdomen and will be harmful to your body. Your face and eyes will turn red. Train wisely.

10. In the past masters of Karate have enjoyed long lives. Karate aids in developing the bones and muscles. It helps the digestion as well as the circulation. If Karate should be introduced beginning in the elementary schools, then we will produce many men each capable of defeating ten assailants. I further believe this can be done by having all students at the Okinawa Teachers College practice Karate. In this way after graduation they can teach at the elementary schools that which they have been taught. I believe this will be a great benefit to our nation and our military. It is my hope you will seriously consider my suggestion.

Anko Itosu
October 1908

[Rick Wilson]

I have another post for later tonight but might put it ont he new thread.

Couple of quick things.

1. We tend to make things "pretty" after people have passed away because we stress their virtues. Nothing wrong with this and there (as Bob Campbell says) nothing wrong with having our stories.

I say this because I had some friends in Okinawa who asked Tomoyse Sensei how his father got Uechi Kanbun Sensei to teach.

Tomoyose Sensei said he father asked a number of people if they would pay (for example purposes only) 5 yen a month to learn real Chinese Chuan Fa from a fellow Okinawan who had learned it right in China. Many said YES!!!

He then went to Uechi Sensei and put (for example purposes only) 60 Yen in his hand and asked "If we could give you this each month would you teach us karate?"

Uechi Sensei being a janitor at (I beleive) a flour mill said "Sure."

Now this is not the saintly version we often tell but to me I like it because it makes this master of our Karate "people" just like us.

There is another Karate style (I won't name -- really I forgot the name ) whose founder was what some might call a "thug". he like to fight and went around challenging anyone who would accept. His style has branched out into a few now and while most recognize the truth of the past but say today we try to be better people, one branch is now denying the founder ever had even one fight. He was now a peaceful saint.

So we tend to like things prettied up. Nothing wrong with that it just is human nature.

Not really any connection to the discussion but triva all the same.

(Oh yeah and if you heard that Tomoyose sensei's father "made up" fight stories...well Tomoyose said that when his father was young he was abit of a bad egg who liked to fight the Japanese boys. Those fight stories were real.)

2. The comment about "Japanification" refers to a modern trend to segment things Karate rather than the older Japanese arts.

More later.

This is a very good discussion folks. There is lots of good information and comments being made. I am enjoying it all.

THANKS.

[Guest]

during the early part of the last century. The Japanese knew martial better than just about anybody around at that time.

They also bombed the chinese with fleas infected with Bubonic Plaque.

Check out: http://www.answers.com/topic/unit-731

But why let a few bad apples ruin the image of all the japanese (and okinawan) people. Right?

[Guest]

Man 'o' man Dago! You have got a lot of ire!

Yeah, I know... got a huge chip on my shoulder.. wish I could let it go but thats not the Italian way. Vendetta is the only solution.

[Stryke]

And you can throw it all out the window if you like and just train fighting. Fine by me if that makes you happy.

I personally beleive the training of the fighting is the primary tool to self improvement and spirituality .

confrontation of ones self , realisation that theres always something bigger and badder around the corner ... that sort of thing .

the japanese and okinawans are no more spiritual or virtuos than we are , There are some interesting storys about the masters that are very human

[Guest]

Vendetta is the only solution.

Aye McDago! Your a man of honour! It's the solution! These people do not understand the feud! Then don't know what it is to settle the score. Chewy talks of ire. Ha ha ha how dare you be angry Tony!

Vendetta is not about anger Chewy it's about collecting on transgression. No emotion is involved; it's just resolve to be carried out.

We clan folk understand the feud very well! Centuries ago 2 of my family were hung for being, “Revivers”. They stole cattle from the Scot Clan. (Relieved them of their property)
But that is how all the clans survived on the borders, raiding the English and occasionally each other. The Border Clans kept Scotland secure and managed to survive by reviving what they lacked.

There was a code, a set of rules for dealing with these activities. A clan was allowed the hot trod. (Hot trot or hot pursuit) One was allowed to pursue there property and attempt to recover it. No one was allowed to interfere. The English were even given this right. One had seven days to pursue and search for their property and all feuds and wars were set aside while men exercised their right to recover their property. After seven days they had best have their ass back home. :;

When the Scot clan hung 2 Elliott’s they crossed the line. The Elliott’s and their neighbors entered a thirty year feud. It ended with 400 Elliott riders inflicting many casualties on the Scots. They sued for peace and terms were agreed too. An apology and a few cattle I believe. Emotion, I don’t believe so, few on the battlefield new their long dead relatives. The feud or vendetta is more about justice and right, it has little to do with emotion and much to do with honour. People with no honour have a difficult time understanding this.

That’s old history, something more modern. My favorite uncle, T.A. aka Sandy.

After T.A., got out of the Army he returned to his old stomping grounds. The family trap line. This is an area and an activity in which we have been involved since we arrived in Canada. (1820 or so). I guess one might call us Hillbilly’s. (Btw the Hatfield’s and McCoy’s were not Polish)

When T.A. was about thirty he had the good fortune to find himself at a local dance. There were many young ladies present and more than a few young lads clamoring for their attention. There just might have been some whisky present as well. T.A.’s father made the best whisky in the township.

Long story short a young fellow Sandy’s age wanting to have a go challenged him to a dust up. Sandy replied he was there for a good time and wanted no part of any fight.

Long story short the chap would not take no for an answer and they ended up out back.

Sandy busted him up and returned to the dance.
His foe took a job in logging camps skidding logs out of the bush with a team of mules. He got strong. That spring he called at my uncles house looking to even the score. After it became apparent he would take no for an answer T.A. gave him a test and bested him again. This pattern continued for sixteen years.

On the 17th test Sandy went down and opened his head on a truck bumper. Will, was pleased to put the boots to T.A. I suppose 16 years of beatings he felt he had right to do that kind of damage, but Sandy was a long time on the mend. It was almost summer when he was fit again.

That winter T.A. trapped very little and made his income felling and liming trees, he was very fit come spring. And that spring he visited William at the dance.

He gave Will a good beating, and then he stepped on his chest and told him…” For Christ sakes William we are almost fifty this has got to end man. Come inside for a drink! William agreed and they walked a few 100 yards down the road To T.A.’s house and killed a bottle of fidich.

What ever it was they had needed to work out had been. They became fast friends and euchre partners, William passed about ten years back. I know my uncle misses him. I remember one spring sitting on his veranda. Sandy was rubbing the scar on his forehead, he turned to me and said, “I miss Willy, he was an honest lad!”

Sandy is in his late eighties and soon I’ll be missing him too. My uncle understood the feud. So few do today.

Tony’s not emotional; Tony’s not a raging bull. Tony is just a man of honour looking to resolve unresolved issues.
This is what vendetta is!

[Guest]

[ Tony’s not emotional; Tony’s not a raging bull. Tony is just a man of honour looking to resolve unresolved issues.
This is what vendetta is!

Knew you'd understand Laird. The people who have fuqt me, they are my life long enemies now, and I will not pretend otherwise. One day, I will get my revenge and then I too, like all of you bleating sheep out there, will have peace..

[Rick Wilson]

Hi Dana:

I happen to agree with you entirely on the principle over technique issues but that shouldn’t surprise anyone who has read these forums for a while.

“My understanding is that the Okinawans are not interested in making Uech-Ryu a modern system of combat defense. They are interested in preserving the “old ways” of their culture and heritage.”

I can’t claim any understanding of what Okinawans are interested in but I would put out two thoughts or questions.

1. Are they not interested in making Uechi-Ryu a modern combat system because they think it works just fine as a combat system as it is or because they do not think it should be a combat system?

2. Preservationism is not the “old ways.” This is a phenomenon that is modern and yet oddly has historical presidents (now there is a conundrum for you. )

Read any history or a martial arts master including the Okinawan ones and you do NOT find preservationists. Funakoshi, Miyagi, Motobu, Higannona (sorry I am sure I messed up the spelling) etc all trained with different people and often went to China to improve and – evolve – their martial arts.

The preservationists of Karate are a new (last 40 – 60 years) breed. The people who came before did not approach marital arts in that manner.

So preservation of an art is something new.

So how can it have historical precedents then?

When something changed in the manner of combat there were at times a small group who chose to encase their methods in glass to preserve how thy used to do it.

Historically in Japan when the sword battles shifted off the battle field where everyone was armoured and heavy powerful sword blows were required to personal combat without armour and swift fast strikes proved more efficient some preserved the methods made for armoured combat and some moved on.

So there is certainly historical precedent for a group to preserve things “as they saw them.” But the overall majority of martial practitioners throughout history had to use their skills and therefore had to evolve and continue to increase their effectiveness.

So, I imagine that there are most definitely some in Okinawa who have become preservationists. But, also historically, I would dispute that it is the majority.

OR they think Uechi works just fine now for combat.

I know Dana you were not saying that just because someone does karate they will be a good person. My point was why not?

“A teacher who teaches students to seek self-improvement…”

Now this is the discussion I wanted to get to.

How do they teach people to seek self-improvement or how do they approach it.

We have established that merely doing Sanchin (read karate) does not necessarily mean you will be a better person.

And this is where the warning about studying Karate for just combat always throws me a little because that is how I believe people are taught to become better people.

I am with Marcus in that I feel it is the study of violence (combat) where we discover and grow as people. Understand I do believe martial arts can improve a person.

But, as you said, just because it “can” doesn’t mean it “does.”

So saying “train with virtue” means more to me, although that too requires discussion n how you do that.

To all reading this post – I am not saying I AM right just that I think I am.

[Guest]

Here, take a whiff of this, it will make you a better person:



Of course, you can forget about new foods tasting like chicken after this, now this will become your new reference.

[Dana Sheets]

I didn't see any folder knives, guns, pepper sprays, whippy bendy metal nightsticks, handcuffs, plastic zipstraps, or duct tape in the Okinawan dojo I visited. I did see some Kali sticks.

It is my opinion that if you want to claim to teach comprehensive self-defense in today's society then you must address the tools in use today. Some are listed above. Some of the tools are used in attacking, others are used in restraining. Heck, there is a form I know (saw performed by a man who does Tai Chi and Coperia Angola) of called "shackle-hands" that teaches how to fight while your hand and feet are shackled. According to him it was developed by the survivors of the Middle Passage.

Conflict resolution and de-escalation, by-stander recruitment, avoidance, environmental weapons, use of trickery and lying in scenario to gain advantage. Legal responsibilities and ramifications of actions, first aid, citizen's arrest. Home security, vehicle security, personal security, commuter security.

These are all things that I feel should be addressed if you're going to claim to teach comprehensive self-defense in the modern era.

When I speak with folks who come to our school I talk about the benefits of traditional training (body conditioning, forms, learning to work with a partner, focus, concentration.) I tell them we train individual knuckles and our toes as well as other striking surfaces and that it takes a long time to get those to where they work. I tell them that what we offer is the opportunity to learn and train a variety of tools and principles that can help them in a bad situation and that most of what we teach is about bare hand attacks. I also say that must of what we teach is based on gross-motor movements because of the difficulty in doing anything else in a bad moment. I explain to them how broadly self-defense can be interpreted and try to explain why we don't say we teach everything about self-defense. I then and invite them to watch class. So they get self-improvement first, fighting second. That is what my teacher taught me and so far it is working well for me.

So while I think Uechi-Ryu can be an element of a modern, comprehensive self-defense system I think it must be supplemented in order to meet my precerption of contemporary self-defense. So at the dojo I train Uechi and empty handed fighting. On the range I train with my pistol. Living in DC I hardly even bother with knives because you're always dumping out your pockets to go through metal detectors. Again - this is all just my perception.

And a far too long winded post.

[benzocaine]

Tony,

I hope none of your enemies never go up in flames in an accidental fire.

You'll be the first suspect

[Guest]

The burnt guy is a dead iraqi soldier. Seeing/Smelling one of these guys do not make you a better person, in fact, your mind will turn into a cesspool for many years and some may never recover.

http://tinyurl.com/d6tbn