Think you are ready? If so, why?

[Bill Glasheen]

On another thread on kumites, I was about to make a post. Then the Internet kept me offline for most of the day. In the meantime, things seemed to settle rather nicely in a thread. When they do so, I am reluctant to have the last word.

So I waited until now to post something that was somewhat personal, and somewhat of a challenge to anyone (not anyone in particular) who thinks they have "it" all figured out.

In case you are wondering, I don't think I have it figured out, nor do I think most do. And when success comes, I don't really feel like patting myself on the back.

But I enjoy the journey - mostly because there IS so much uncertainty and so many different ways. Not sure if everyone understands that, but that's fine by me.

Anyhow, here was the post.

Thanks to all for the thoughtful, caring posts.

We can analyze those situations ad nauseum. Heck, I was recently involved in a "situation" myself, and the conclusion by one learned individual was that I made a tactical error. But we can't argue with the results; both your student and I succeeded with practically the best possible outcome. I am most happy for your student, and I am happy for myself. But...what does it all mean? To what do we attribute success? What can we garner from single data points?

I've had similar successful encounters for my students, Rick. A woman whom I will refer to as "Maria" (some know her) was sexually assaulted in the classroom in a foreign country. A student came up and grabbed her breast. She didn't wait for the other boob to be grabbed... In probably the blink of an eye, the student was slammed against a concrete wall and his face met her fist when he bounced off of it. Oye!!! I was more concerned about the OVERreaction. In any case she was fortunate; the situation turned out fine.

She was fortunate. I was fortunate. Your student was fortunate. But I do say that luck is preparation*opportunity. We all seek validity in our preparation methods.

I have many, many more stories, Rick. Sometimes things work. I'm always happy when they do, but I never, ever get to the point where I begin to believe in my own myth. I run scared - all the time. One of the things I respect most about Tony Blauer is that he told me he runs scared as well. He's never satisfied. He can talk a great sales pitch and he proceeds with passion - as he should. But I don't get the impression he is wooed by it himself. Good!

Because the day will come when a teacher hears...

Sensei, I am so sorry I failed you.

Live life long enough, and it will eventually happen. Indeed, who failed whom? As a scientist who already knew not to take credit for positive anecdotes, my rational side will deal with it and my emotional side will be torn to shreds. And the mathematician who understands MATHEMATICAL chaos knows the real truth - $hit happens. As my friend Panther likes to say, “Sometimes you’re the windshield, and sometimes you’re the bug.” It's that damned butterfly effect. We will never really know. That, my friend, is the wonder of nature. And believe it or not, nature as we know it wouldn’t survive without that uncertainty. But I wax geeky…

I STILL fail to comprehend your insistence that Kyu Kumite waits for two attacks before responding. I thought I addressed that; I clearly don't share your view. As I do Kyu Kumite, I see options for clean countering all the way through. Again, #3 is the classic example. The person is or can be toast at the outset. But we give ourselves permission to play with the tiger. We also give ourselves permission to make mistakes, and mistakes DO happen in real life. Meanwhile, my advanced classes are rarely about doing the exercise beginning to end. We tear it apart, do individual techniques mirror image, show built in counters everywhere, etc. Like the way kata used to be trained, much of the work isn’t about doing them from beginning to end.

Whether or not you believe in it, there's a beautiful piece on The "Ethics" of Defense in AIKIDO AND THE DYNAMIC SPHERE (Tuttle, 1970). Let me quote.

This last and highest level is the goal of all aikido self-defense arts. It requires skill: the result of intensive practice of the technical means of defense devised by the founder, Master Uyeshiba. But it requires more than that. It requires an ethical intention. A man must sincerely desire to defend himself without hurting others. He must be well on the way toward integration of mind and body, of physical means and ethical motives.

Call me an eater of lotus if you will; I hold this conviction with no shame. And from my personal experiences - ones that I do not relish sharing - I have no fear that "he" will come forth when it is time. Frankly I don't want to think about "him" a lot. While some wonder if “he” is inside, I fear “him.”

BTW, I realize my goal is lofty and perhaps unattainable for most – perhaps even for me. I don't care; the journey is fun. And if it isn’t fun, you don’t show up. And if you don’t show up…

And you know what? I am reinforced in my convictions from the strangest places. Both Van and I have read Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's book "On Killing." It's a fascinating read! I find the reactions to the book so varied that I begin to wonder whether or not it would serve well as a Rorschach test.

I see death everywhere in the martial arts. I choose to immerse myself in it the way some eat hot sauce - so it doesn't bother me so much any more. As I walk in the valley of death, I WILL fear evil, but I wish to hold that fear - and the response to it - at the level I choose when possible.

This is not meant as a negative diatribe towards anyone. On the contrary, I’m letting the world see my own doubts, and I'm always open to learn more.

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

Well, Bill, I guess I am game to raise the Kumite issue or any other again. Whatever you want.

I know this is not directed at anyone in particular but since it flowed directly from the thread I started, refers to comments I made, and refers to me personally by name etc, I can only respond to it as if the comments, at least slightly, included me in the shot gun spread.

I am not saying you intended it for me but how else can we form any reply but from our own opinions and experiences.

Anyway, for whatever slight part I may have been included with those who think they know it ALL, I hope to straighten that out.

I find some things odd. I think I have over and over and over again said that we must question and question and continue to evolve in every aspect of how we do and train our Uechi Ryu.

Clearly this is hardly the approach for those who think they have it all figured out.

I mean if we have it all figured out why think anymore? Why question any further?

I post what I am doing now and what I have done. The drills that I have posted usually have evolved even before the majority that visit this site have even read them.

So I do not think I have it figured everything out. There are a few things we have figured out. There are a few things we have glimpsed. There are many many more things we need to learn.

I see this in the posts of those who question the hardest how we train and what we are doing.

I simply post what we are trying to do now.

Think about that.

If these forums allowed no posting or discussion of what people are doing.

If these forums allowed no questioning of what is done.

Then what would they accomplish?

It seems that those sharing what we do and asking questions are now seen as claiming we “have "it" all figured out.” At least that is how I read your post, Bill.

So I have to disagree. Seems to me we are just taking part in a discussion forum.

But then perhaps I was mistaken and I am not one of “those” your post is direct to.

“I've had similar successful encounters for my students, Rick. A woman whom I will refer to as "Maria" (some know her) was sexually assaulted in the classroom in a foreign country. A student came up and grabbed her breast. She didn't wait for the other boob to be grabbed... In probably the blink of an eye, the student was slammed against a concrete wall and his face met her fist when he bounced off of it. Oye!!! I was more concerned about the OVERreaction. In any case she was fortunate; the situation turned out fine.”

I say good for your student. Was it an over reaction? I guess, since he did not have the opportunity to continue, no one knows.

We do know that many predators try out something to see if it will go unchallenged and then take another step and another.

She cut him off at “bump one” and perhaps prevented a full fledge sexual assault. But as I said who knows because the man who sexually assaulted her was not given a chance to do worse.

As for the anecdotal information I made that comment clearly; however, since we have no other "evidence" as to our success what else can we report.

If you, or those you trained, have done well then you are doing something right. If there are stories representing the other end of the scale then perhaps not.

And YES, clearly luck and circumstance can mean NO amount of training would result in a different result.

However, when students do what we trained them to do, then there is no doubt we had some part in it.

“I have many, many more stories, Rick. Sometimes things work. I'm always happy when they do, but I never, ever get to the point where I begin to believe in my own myth. I run scared - all the time.”

Well since this is openly directed to me in response to comments that I made, I will respond as if it was directed to me. I fail to see how I cannot?

So Bill, to clear the air:

I don’t even suspect I have a myth, let alone believe it. I do not feel that I have is all figured out. I work everyday on evolving and improving. I think everyday on how to do this better. I will continue to try and learn and evolve. I will give up the drills that are less effective and add those that are more effective. I will continue to do so. I must continue because no one will ever have it all figured out. Certainly not me.

“I STILL fail to comprehend your insistence that Kyu Kumite waits for two attacks before responding. I thought I addressed that; I clearly don't share your view. As I do Kyu Kumite, I see options for clean countering all the way through. Again, #3 is the classic example. The person is or can be toast at the outset.”

Please refer me to the post, because I apologize that I missed it.

Punch, Punch, Counter. 1 - 2 - THREE. Seems clear to me, and I dislike it.

I don’t dislike all of Kyu Kumite and even posted once the principles that could be learned from it (something not done by anyone for Dan Kumite). However, I find there just isn’t as much substance.

I also believe that thinking about what could be done and training to do it are two different things IMHO.

And I guess on the Kumite issues we will fail to comprehend each others positions.

You see much of what I posted said that you cannot stop with the Kumites and just train those. I have said prearranged work is needed. I have said that you should do it and push it and move on to bigger and better things.

The main fault of prearranged training is the belief that it is enough.

Another fault of prearranged Kumite is the focus on technique over principle. Most doing them are performing rote movements without any understanding of what they are actually trying to accomplish.

Another fault of prearranged Kumite is the belief you are learning to deal with specific attacks in specific manners.

Of course these are really comments on the TRAINING and the intent of the training of prearranged Kumites.

If someone sees value in Kyu and Dan Kumite; if they train them to teach principles; if they take them to new levels such as those proposed by George Sensei; if they do not rely on the prearranged Kumites as the be all end all for training, then I have no issue.

Well, okay I still dislike Dan Kumite and find it hard to relate to the Kata of Uechi and the effective use of Uechi weapons etc. but that really becomes simply points to enjoyably discuss and argue and beyond that it is my own personal issue.

Further on the one two then counter, here is a good learning experience. It is fun we tried it out. Of course you can’t mind getting clocked.

Have a partner (the aggressor) put on some boxing gloves.

1) Have the aggressor launch an attack with a full power full speed punch. You simply move and block it ala Kyu Kumite.

2) Have the aggressor launch in with a full power full speed punch and have a second punch throw with the retraction of the first strike. You simply move and block it ala Kyu Kumite. See how well you do and how many times you get hit.

3) Have the aggressor launch in with a full power full speed punch and have a second and THIRD punch throw with the retraction of the first strikes. You simply move and block it and try to counter after that second strike ala Kyu Kumite. See how well you do and how many times you get hit.

4) Why have them stop throwing punches? They don’t on the street. Have the aggressor charge in full blown with punch after punch. Avoid the first two ala Kyu Kumite and see how you do.

And IF you start to change and respond earlier, or perhaps simultaneously with at least the second punch, THEN ask yourself what is wrong with the Kyu Kumite approach (on each and every one of them.)

“But we give ourselves permission to play with the tiger. We also give ourselves permission to make mistakes, and mistakes DO happen in real life.”

Okay guess it is late because I can’t see the relevance of this comment.

“Meanwhile, my advanced classes are rarely about doing the exercise beginning to end. We tear it apart, do individual techniques mirror image, show built in counters everywhere, etc. Like the way kata used to be trained, much of the work isn’t about doing them from beginning to end.”

Sounds familiar and here we agree.

“This last and highest level is the goal of all aikido self-defense arts. It requires skill: the result of intensive practice of the technical means of defense devised by the founder, Master Uyeshiba. But it requires more than that. It requires an ethical intention. A man must sincerely desire to defend himself without hurting others. He must be well on the way toward integration of mind and body, of physical means and ethical motives.”

A truly noble goal but if you read and look at the earlier work of Uyeshiba you will find that it was not a nice art.

Why?

Can beginners do this?

If not, can you then train a beginner in this manner?

If not, then should you not train them differently but direct them to this goal?

A noble goal and a fine one but a long term one. Have something for the here and now. IMHO

I do not believe ANYONE has it ALL figured out. That is why open discussion and honest questioning is SO important.

That is why George's forums are so important, and why I have always respected the fact we can post dissenting views.

Very late, good night.

[Guest]

A man must sincerely desire to defend himself without hurting others. He must be well on the way toward integration of mind and body, of physical means and ethical motives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Call me an eater of lotus if you will; I hold this conviction with no shame.

No one need be ashamed of personal beliefs Bill. If You what to hang a label on your belief system like eating the lotus petals so be it! Are you promoting this outlook in conjuction with real world self defense?(non dojo non prearranged altercations aka fights)

Laird

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick

I dropped my post in - with your name - because it was indeed in the middle of a discussion (now ended quite nicely). There is no need at this point to consider it as addressing you per se.

Many have spent time seeking to understand what is being challenged and what is behind those feelings. It's also fair to ask those who challenge to take time to understand other viewpoints. Without the diverse efforts going on in this great martial experiment, the styles and/or journeys will be lifeless. With the diversity, we learn from others and quite possibly get to our individual goals faster because of our better perspective. Heck, whenever I jump into a new body of knowledge, I end up buying at least half a dozen books on the topic. The different viewpoints on the principles allow me to get a better handle on the subject matter, and allows me to take ownership of my own way.

Now to a few of Rick's comments.

I don’t even suspect I have a myth, let alone believe it. I do not feel that I have is all figured out.

Nor do I, Rick. However you must understand what it's like getting drowned in the straw over here - the very straw some are encouraging just to get folks to "take sides." By that, I refer to "strawman tactics." I never can quite figure out who certain posters are referring to when talking about folks that like doing yakusoku kumite. I can never identify... Frankly I often find myself agreeing with your ways of thinking or approaching subject material more often than I disagree. For example...

The main fault of prearranged training is the belief that it is enough.

Absolutely not. That's not the fault of prearranged training; that's the fault of those that believe it. I frankly don't know anyone who does.

Do I believe weight training is enough? No. But I consider it essential.

Do I believe kata is enough? No. But I consider it essential.

Do I believe jiyu work is enough? No. But I consider it essential.

Do I believe work on mindset (in the absence of a coherent set of fighting principles) is enough? No. But I consider it essential.

Strawman argument!

Another fault of prearranged Kumite is the focus on technique over principle. Most doing them are performing rote movements without any understanding of what they are actually trying to accomplish.

In The Book of Bill, if you aren't making a connection to the principle(s) being investigated in a particular yakusoku sequence, then you aren't teaching. If you can't show where in a particular kata it came from, then you aren't teaching. If you can't make up myriad other spins off the same principle and have students play with them, then you aren't teaching. If you aren't using a sequence as a means to teach many other principles and ideas in martial arts, then you aren't teaching.

No matter what material you give inferior teachers, they will mess it up.

I don't know who these alleged teachers are. However many of them there are out there or whom they are doesn't concern me except when it comes time to evaluate a candidate in a test and I can see they don't "get" certain important fundamental concepts of martial study. Many may not be able to articulate exactly what bad karate is, but they know it when they see it. It may or may not help bashing a method... I find it more useful to help people get the most out of the methods they have access to.

Have a partner (the aggressor) put on some boxing gloves.

1) Have the aggressor launch an attack with a full power full speed punch. You simply move and block it ala Kyu Kumite.

...

4) Why have them stop throwing punches? They don’t on the street. Have the aggressor charge in full blown with punch after punch. Avoid the first two ala Kyu Kumite and see how you do.

If someone has problems with this exercise, then they've missed the point of Kyu Kumite - according to The Book of Bill. Kyu Kumite, in my Book, is about gaining control of a surprise attack sequence as quickly as possible using myriad methods available to the martial artist. I teach those methods. If the person doesn't have complete control of the attacker by the end of the sequence, they aren't doing it correctly; they are just doing "rock-em-sock-em" bashing.

Not a bad exercise... I may steal it.

Sounds familiar and here we agree.

We often do, Rick, more than you know. You just don't like using tools that happen to be useful to me.

Laird

No one need be ashamed of personal beliefs Bill. If You what to hang a label on your belief system like eating the lotus petals so be it! Are you promoting this outlook in conjuction with real world self defense?

I don't teach those beliefs, Laird, I live them. And if you grasp the essence of Grossman's book "On Killing," you will see that the vast majority of the population is the same. It isn't natural to be a killer. The mindset of Saddam is a sociopathic one.

It is useful though to understand malevolence, and deal with it in a way that assures survival. Sometimes that does indeed mean going against one's very nature.

I find most have the beast within. I think it's useful giving someone the tools to use when the beast comes forth - if it does.

It's like this... When I was a young lad, I was curious about LSD. I had no desire to **** my brains up with the stuff, but I was still curious. So I elected to be the sober guy who watched over others at acid parties. This way I got an inside view of it all, without having to experience the negative effects of doing something that had clear risks. I understood it better... If it was intentionally slipped into something I was eating or drinking, I would probably not freak out. But it is and always will be against my nature to do harmful things to myself like that. And I have a better understanding of it all when it comes time to talk to my sons about recreational drug use.

Back to martial arts... I HAVE hurt people before who have sucker-punched me. I'm not proud of it. Sorry if that disappoints the warriors in the group. Funny thing though...what happened had very little to do with any conscious thought. It just happened. And I STILL can't put my finger on exactly what worked and what didn't. But I am grateful, and attempt to understand more without putting myself in harm's way. It's not my nature to do so.

When it comes time to teaching others, I feel it is my job as an instructor to work with an individual's belief systems, and make the art work for them. Being a martial arts instructor is NOT about being a guru.

Hope that helps.

- Bill

[gmattson]

That would be a very nice step forward on these forums.

I don't believe that respecting other people's methods will destroy the benefits of discussions on topics like pre-arranged drills.

[Ron Klein]

Thanks George.....

In designing kumites (prearanged drills) for kyu ranks, do any of you introduce takedowns? or have you designed any form of kumites that would introduce ground tactics?

I have used these types of drills with sucess in getting students on to the ground, learning to not only take an opponent down but also deal with being taken down.



Ron

[Bill Glasheen]

Ron

Thanks for the segue; the check's in the mail. But seriously...

I had a fascination for the grappling arts dating way back to the 1970s. My Japanese karate instructor also taught judo, although not to me. It was clear to me after studying Uechi for some time that this open-handed style was meant to be part grappling art, or at least a bridge to it. What I saw lacking though was the essential preparation - ukemi.

First thing I did in the latter 1970s was to invite a judo instrucor (Harry Cook) to come into my Uechi class and teach the basics of ukemi. Then I made it a class requirement for a beginner's test (after 3 months of training), and an essential part of every kyu test thereafter. That laid the groundwork (pardon the pun) for the next stage.

I do make up throwing kumite "on the spot" and teach them to my students. Sometimes they are a direct rip-off of aikido/jiujitsu that I learned from the past. Those arts often demonstrate applications to principles of movement in Uechi kata. And then sometimes I just teach the throwing applications I see in kata, while remembering the principles of engagement I learned from aikido.

The ukemi also is the key (to me) for transitioning from unfortunate situation on two feet into the ground arena...and then back up again. What I see the Uechi system lacking is the extensive ground work that allows someone to survive against the grappler/wrestler long enough to come back to the Uechi core strength, which is on 2 feet.

But even then...on the ground, I see applications (like ankle locks) that really are Uechi kata moves (shoken sukuiage uke). When someone else is teaching a lateral vascular neck restraint (the classic judo blood choke), I see the Uechi elbow movement ubiquitous in the kata. I make good jiujitsu teachers/practitioners like Joe Pomfret scratch their heads and chuckle when I see those principles of movement coming from the kata. But then you really have to wonder why we have so many Uechi/jiujitsu practitioners (Jack Summers, Joe Pomfret, Mike Murphy, etc.). We do because learning these 2 styles doesn't take 2 times the effort of one. It takes much less than that once your body feels the similarities.

I also make a big, BIG, BIG deal about "Uechi pointy things" and being on the ground. Those things don't make sense when you have two feet on the ground and you can send the mother-of-all-techniques to someone's jaw with a nice palm heel. But with your foundation out from underneath you (on your back, for example), suddenly doing more with less makes sense. Suddenly poking at someone or grabing hold of "something" when you are compromised and about to be choked out makes perfect sense. The paradigm changes dramatically in a different context; what once seemed absurd suddenly is obvious.

Mike Murphy sensei has demonstrated some really nice extensions of kyu kumite that finish with jiujitsu takedowns. He's demonstrated these before at Summer Camp Saturday Night Demos. Great suff... Good man!

I think "karate" is a bad label for Uechi's style; it is a label that stuck because Okinawans were responsible for perpetuating the art. The style is neither striking nor grappling art; it is both. It is "surf and turf."

- Bill

[Ron Klein]

Bill:

"I think "karate" is a bad label for Uechi's style"

That is an interesting comment, that makes sense to me from everything I am reading on these forums. Again I look at all that we do as martial arts with out boundaries----sort of like physicians without borders.....

Aside from practicing and demonstrating the ground techniques: I take from your answer that you do have prearranged type drills that incorporate grappling. So at what point to you introduce kyu students to ground tecniques? Are they integrated into a kyu kumite series or the traditonal prearanged drills you do? Grappling/ground techniques occupy a significant portion of my students black belt examinations as one of the replacements for dan kumite (for example).

Ukemi is one of the first things we work on.


Ron

[gmattson]

About the late response. Busy day today with other, non-karate matters.

I recommend drills that build on the Uechi basics, whether kata or pre-arranged kumite. We all have different strengths and weaknessess. My weakness is in groundwork. I work on this a lot, without much improvement. Therefore I tend to build my drills around trying to stay off the ground.

The ability to build our own style around the basics is probably not unique to Uechi-ryu. However, it helps that we are blessed with lots of open-minded teachers who encourage experimentation, cross training and building on the individual's strengths, while not ridiculing those who might elect to travel a different path.

Guess you share that viewpoint as well Ron.

[Bill Glasheen]

Ron

I'll be perfectly honest here, and admit I'm not good enough at ground techniques (YET) to consider myself a "teacher" of such. I'm picking up what I can as of late. Bought a bunch of BJJ books. I played a little with Joe Pomfret's BJJ people at camp, and let them thrash me around the mat a bit. Fun stuff! Rich has been playing with the Marines in their MCMAP, and they do lots of it. I teach a few things here and there, but it's not (YET) part of the tested cirriculum.

When to introduce it? Good question. I'll let you know when I have it figured out.

A good person to talk to about this is Joe Pomfret. He is ranked both in Uechi and BJJ, and teaches both in his school. Also, Mike Murphy teaches Uechi and Japanese jiujutsu. Let's see if we can get them to jump in the thread.

Also, one of my students who now teaches in Atlanta (Bruce Hirabayashi) has a student (Sal - a beast of a man) that's fairly highly ranked in two different JJ arts. Not sure when/how all that gets integrated for them. I think for now they keep things separate. But I'll check.

Frankly we would really bring Uechi's style a long way forward if for a test we required 2 minutes of traditional sparring on your feet, and then 2 minutes of mat work on the ground. How to prime the groundwork pump? Yes, some yakusoku work could be choreographed to get people doing a half dozen basics. Hmm...

George, did Joey finish his groundwork partner exercise and publish it yet?

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Did I hear my name mentioned?

Yes, I do a little bit of ground work every week. Though now I do not do any freestyle, just practice principles and techniques.

From about May of 02 to May of 03 I was doing freestyle groundwork once a week. After about an hour and a half of practicing techniques we'd do 5 round robin 2 minute matches with one minute of rest in between. That will wear you down. We were usually all pretty tired by this point. Sometimes a run through the woods preceded everything.

With the round robin you'd get big, small, skilled, unskilled or whoever was there. If outside we'd be in cammies and boots. Inside the boots had to come off so as to not damage the mats. The cammies are durable and allow very solid handholds for chokes etc. All in all a great experience.

Unfortunately last spring my neck and back were complaining about this activity so I had to back off on it.

The groundwork really opened my eyes. After a while I began to see opportunities and openings I never knew were there. Bill is correct in that Uechi fits in quite well, and vice-versa. I plan to refine what I know but will take care to not injure myself.... I turn 51 next week and trying to compete with warriors half my age is tough to do.

Rich

[Rick Wilson]

Hey Bill:

“I dropped my post in - with your name - because it was indeed in the middle of a discussion (now ended quite nicely). There is no need at this point to consider it as addressing you per se.”

You wonder why I thought it might be about me “per se?”

Well, if we look at your post through the eyes on an intelligent man what do we see?

1. We see that you were going to post it on the thread I started about Prearranged work. This tells us that it was in response to the posts on that thread. If it was not intended that way why mention the thread? This would simply be a new thread on a different issue.

2. So, when we look at that Kumite thread we see three main contributors: George, you and myself. With some excellent commentary from Ron as well. Now I doubt very much the myth is about George. Ron’s comments were exceptionally well articulated and could not be misconstrued to find this opinion. I really didn’t get the impression you were speaking about yourself, so that just leaves me.

3. You referred to comments I made.

4. You referred to me by name.

So, Bill while I am sure you had others in mind as well, any intelligent person would interpret your comments to include me.

Since I consider you to be an intelligent person I can only continue to respond as if I am included.

To be honest from your posts I have no doubt that I am.

But please understand that I have absolutely no problem with you raising any issue you have with me and please feel free to do it directly. I am not insulted by it. I consider it just one more topic for discussion.

You question who these people we are talking about are (sort of like I question who your post is talking about eh?) and I could name some names right in my own city.

A common class I have seen many times is to line people up and proceed as follows:

1. Junbi Undo
2. Stretching
3. Hojo Undo
4. Maybe a kicking drill
5. Kata
6. Maybe Kotaketia or some conditioning but not always.
7. Kumite for your rank
8. Bunkia for your rank

Class is done over and over again, with perhaps a night devoted to sparring. These people get very good at the prearranged work as long as it stays within those boundaries.

Laird has just had an experience with a Black Belt from one of these schools. A nice enough guy and very proficient at white belt Kumites and Bunkai but that is all.

So sorry, Bill but they do exist and I have been in them.

But if you don’t believe me then let us go to comment made many times by George who, admittedly, has seen many more dojos than you or I.

George has many times commented how he hates to see Black Belts doing a Bunkai or Kumite like white belts. I would suggest that these schools also rely either heavily or entirely on prearranged work.

“In The Book of Bill, if you aren't making a connection to the principle(s) being investigated in a particular yakusoku sequence, then you aren't teaching. If you can't show where in a particular kata it came from, then you aren't teaching. If you can't make up myriad other spins off the same principle and have students play with them, then you aren't teaching. If you aren't using a sequence as a means to teach many other principles and ideas in martial arts, then you aren't teaching.”

Excellent comment and here I certainly agree that if you cannot teach the principles behind what you are doing or cannot relate it back to our Kata you are missing the point.

When David Mott Sensei takes his direct students here through a Kata, a single Kata can take two hours as he peels away layer after layer of principles. This is the kind of quality I am talking about.

Hey Bill, since you only teach what you can relate to principles and the Uechi Kata, then you can help me out, because you also teach Dan Kumite.

I must admit my inability to find worthwhile principles in this drill or relate the majority of it back to the Uechi Kata.

So since you are a proponent of these Kumites, and teach it, you will be able to take me through the principles and relate it back to the Kata. I would love to read them and explore what people find in this drill that I do not.

I totally disagree with your assessment of the drill I recommend. If you respond with Kyu Kumite as it is set out you will get your block knocked off. Of course we just wouldn’t be doing the Kumite correctly right?

What I actually suspect would happen is that you would be changing the responses from the Kyu Kumite ones to effective ones. Such as responding to the first attack even while the second is launched.

And, I agree that you can certainly use a vast variety of Uechi responses to control the attack but that is teaching what SHOULD be done in Kyu Kumite not what IS done. I simply ask why not do that from the start?

I am always willing to get into that breakdown and analysis that you mentioned, Bill. In fact I prefer it because then we can get right down to it. I learn a great deal when people actually describe what they do and teach rather than listing generalities.

You see, while I might disagree with an approach, or the principles being taught, I will respect that the person has an approach. If they have an understanding of what they are doing and why then the discussion becomes simply a technical one.

And here I might be right or I might be wrong or we may be both right just different. I may come away having learned a great deal.

When I discuss principles and approaches that is when I learn. If the person explaining it has something better then I experiment and change and evolve.

I have changed and evolved constantly because I have quality people to work with who always look at the effectiveness of the principles we use and constantly challenge them.

George uses them as a base to leap into more advanced drills. His approach is constantly referred to on other forums as excellent, and I would not argue this. I have learned from what he does and used it.

However, I am going to be honest here and say that I cannot understand the fear that goes on when Kyu and Dan Kumite are questioned.

And yes I see it as a fear response.

When these Kumites themselves are questioned why, Bill do you not respond by referring to the principles you teach in them? You have posted that “if you aren't making a connection to the principle(s) being investigated in a particular yakusoku sequence, then you aren't teaching. If you can't show where in a particular kata it came from, then you aren't teaching.”

So why not respond by posting and discussing those principles?

Why are people accused of not being able to do them well?

Why are people accused of having the Myth Complex of having ALL the answers?

You see those comments will never convince me there is merit in these drills.

I respect those who can explain why they are teaching something but that is not what I have seen – yet?

I will gladly discuss the principles and while we may end up disagreeing at least we will know why each person is teaching what they teach. And I could respect that. Perhaps I would even end up changing my mind.

You see Bill I do not think I have all the answers. There may well be something I have missed in Dan Kumite. But I need help to find it.

I await the posting of the principles of Dan Kumite and its relationship to the Uechi kata.

I am not insulted by your questions Bill; I can only hope you are not by mine. They are honestly asked to enhance discussion and learning.

[Rick Wilson]

Ron:

I teach takedowns and ground fighting from day one. I have a very Uechi approach to this.

Many of those in Uechi relate takedowns etc to the jujitsu approach and that is a valid one without doubt.

However, if you prefer a more Chinese related approach I highly recommend Tim Cartmell’s “Effortless Combat Throws” and “Chin Na.” The book and video for the Effortless Combat Throws are excellent and blend with Uechi flawlessly.

http://www.shenwu.com/books.htm

[Guest]

A man must sincerely desire to defend himself without hurting others. He must be well on the way toward integration of mind and body, of physical means and ethical motives.

I HAVE hurt people before who have sucker-punched me. I'm not proud of it.

I don't teach those beliefs, Laird, I live them

Bill did you see your defending your self as a failure because you hurt some one? Were you disappointed with yourself? Did you see this as a conflict with living those beliefs Bill? Could you expand on this?

Sorry if that disappoints the warriors in the group.

Here we go again another faceless group of people. Who are these warriors Bill, why should they be disappointed? What is your point here?

Funny thing though...what happened had very little to do with any conscious thought. It just happened. And I STILL can't put my finger on exactly what worked and what didn't.

This is unusual, most people recall violence encounters in great detail. From Vans forum" Our visual perception alters so that we see everything in slow motion, which also allows us to concentrate better and use the extraordinary energy our body has made available.
This slow motion [Tachypsychia] phenomenon always accompanies life or death resistance and severe injury.
Also tunnel vision and auditory exclusion will be experienced"

You experienced none of this? Is this Mushin? It just happened? You can't put your finger on what worked and what didn't, are you blocking it out? Was it emotionally unsettling? Was it the trauma, you just blacked out? Why do you think you can not put your finger on what worked and what didn't?

But I am grateful, and attempt to understand more without putting myself in harm's way. It's not my nature to do so.

I'm glad you walked away Bill! What do you mean by attempting to understand without putting your self in harms way? Are you saying your looking to figure it out by not getting in street fights or are you saying your looking for answers without exploring contact?

And if you grasp the essence of Grossman's book "On Killing," you will see that the vast majority of the population is the same. It isn't natural to be a killer.

I've not read this book yet Bill.

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Section deleted.

- The Editor
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The mindset of Saddam is a sociopath one.

No kidding!

It is useful though to understand malevolence, and deal with it in a way that assures survival. Sometimes that does indeed mean going against one's very nature.

I find most have the beast within. I think it's useful giving someone the tools to use when the beast comes forth - if it does.

I agree, however I find it is easy to go against our nature. Millions of soldiers world wide have managed to do so. You just have to cross those barriers before you encounter them. I don't think someone being resolved to kill if need be makes them a sociopath.


I'm personally committed to escalate up to and including lethal force. I don't have any issues about the EBG getting injured or killed. I'm walking away. I don't believe I'm a sociopath. I don't want to hurt anyone Bill, I just don't have any problems with it if I do.

I feel it is my job as an instructor to work with an individual's belief systems

You meant to say with in an individuals belief system didn't you Bill?

Laird

[Ron Klein]

George: I absolutely share and agree with the viewpoint you described. I will also confess, that despite the importance for ground techniques--I am finding the mats more comfortable-I mean getting up is a bit more difficult than it used to be....

Rick: I'll check out the reference, thank you.

Bill: thank you for your response---keep training!

Thanks

Ron