One more epiphany on the path up the mountain

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Bill Glasheen
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One more epiphany on the path up the mountain

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Lately on these forums, we've had battles over some of the craziest things. Sometimes people truly are seeking the truth, or articulating an intriguing point of view. And sometimes... Methinks sometimes people debate because they like to take sides and argue. It's as if the joy of jiyu can't be left in the dojo. ;)

In any case, a number of topics and phrases that I've discussed or used all came together in an extremely short chapter in Dave Grossman's book On Killing.

On Soapbox...

NOTE: Please read the darned book yourself! No excuse some of youse guys quoting someone else quoting the book, or arguing about whether or not what I say is substantiated in the literature.

Off Soapbox...

In any case, this book (and a few others) should be required reading for a black belt in any martial art. I'm going through it a second time these days.

THINGS YACKED ABOUT LATELY ON THE FORUMS...

1) Whether or not humans do or don't have an innate resistance to killing.

2) Whether or not "Uechi pointy things" are valid self defense (not sparring, not full contact sport fighting) techniques.

3) Forum martial bravado from cyber warriors vs. those that have "seen the elephant" and tend not to be so full of themselves.

The particular section of the book I'm referring to is on killing and physical distance. According to Lt. Col. Grossman's theme, modern computerized warfare sanitizes the act of killing in war so that kill rates are dramatically increased. Actually though there's a flip side to this. Just as it's easy to kill when you don't have to look a man in the face, so too is it easy for victims in war to accept killing without mass psychological trauma when they don't see the faces of their tormenters. Interesting... Many of the theories in WWII held by Nazi Germany (terrorizing Britain into submission with massive bombings) turned out not to be true. The population was instead galvanized.

Meanwhile killing when you have to see the face of the opponent and/or hear the sounds of death are psychologically traumatic to the point that the vast majority of soldiers CANNOT do it (15 to 20 percent killing rates in most wars pre Vietnam) without significant psychological conditioning. And the flip side here is that the psychological trauma induced on victims is maximized when they see the faces of their tormentors. A classic example is the suffering of the Jews in the Nazi death camps at the hands of the psychopathic personalities chosen to do these deeds.

The book in this section goes from "bombing range" all the way to "hand-to-hand combat range," and even "sexual range." It starts with the clinical and finishes with the kind of stuff that can make you stay awake at night.

Raffi, you need to read the chapter on "Killing at Edged-Weapon Range: An Intimate Brutality." You'll never view your art the same way again!

But the good stuff for you Kara*te (empty hand) practitioners is the chapter on hand-to-hand combat range. I will quote sections from this short chapter.
At hand-to-hand combat range the instinctive resistance to killing becomes strongest. While some who have studied the subject claim that man is the only higher-order species that does not have an instinctive resistance to killing his own species, its existence is recognized by almost any high-level karate practitioner.
Oh really? Must not have heard some of what we've heard... But I digress.
An obvious method of killing an opponent involves a crushing blow to the throat. In movie combat we often see one individual grab another by the throat and attempt to choke him. And Hollywood heroes give the enemy good old punch in the jaw. In both instances a blow to the throat (with the hand held in various prescribes shapes) would be a vastly superior form of disabling or killing the foe, yet it is not a natural act; it is a repellant one.
Ever wonder why they ban those techniques in the UFC fights? ;)
The single most effective and mechanically easiest way to inflict significant damage on a human being with one's hand is to punch a thumb through his eye and on into the brain, subsequently stirring the intruding digit around inside the skull, cocking it off toward the side, and forcefully pulling the eye and other matter out with the thumb.
I get the impression that Grossman is a psychologist and not a psychiatrist. I believe a round in the cadaver lab would have made him state his case just a little differently. (Right Ian?) Nevertheless, his point (oops!) is well taken.

I got to thinking about this. A lot. Actually I had a student in my karate class once explain the technique to me. Then I thought about it some more... Then... BINGO!!!

Ever heard of a boshiken? (Thumb fist)
One karate instructor trains his high-level students in this killing technique by having them...
Sorry, I don't feel it's ethical to post this on the internet. What do you think, Van? I think people who want to read the gruesome details (and ALL karate instructors) should buy the book and read page 132.

It continues...
As we will observe when we study the process by which the U.S. Army raised its firing rates from 15 to 20 percent in World War II to 90 to 95 percent in Vietnam, this procedure of precisely rehearsing and mimicking a killing action is an excellent way of insuring that the individual is capable of performing the act in combat.

In the case of (censored above), the process is made even more realistic by (Read the book!!!) Few individuals can walk away from their first such rehearsal without being badly shaken and disturbed by the action they have just mimicked. The fact that they are overcoming some form of natural resistance is obvious.
Read this chapter. Then think about it... You'll never doubt the capability of ONE Uechi pointy thing (the boshiken) again...
Man has a tremendous resistance to killing effectively with his bare hands. When man first picked up a club or a rock and killed his fellow man, he gained more than mechanical energy and mechanical leverage. He also gained psychological energy and psychological leverage that was every bit as necessary in the killing process. In some distant part of man's past he acquired this ability. Two major religious works, the Bible and The Torah, both speaking for partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and one of its first uses was Cain's overcoming his instinctive resistance in order to kill his brother, Abel. He probably did so not with his bare hands, but with an application of mechanical and psychologcal leverage not available to any other creature on the face of the earth.
And so it is with this "empty hand" art. Much food for thought.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Example deleted.
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Stress after the fact is very different from having the ability to engage , If you leave engaging for to long this can very likely occur .

the only Elephant ive seen is at the zoo , but I have seen violence , I have shut down to certain levels , but the willingless not to engage is probably more of a nuture issue perhaps than a physiological issue , no i havent read the book , and I should .... But i dont consider myself a killer , maybe I am assuming I could ... hmm tough stuff

I consider having the boundarys set and the plan to act to be the preperation phsychologically . The preparation to take it where it has to go , Death could always be a side effect of Imparing there motor function , I dont beleive anything I could do singularly is so dangerous that it will kill certainly , having said that theres a chance that anything I do may .... Its all about being able to justify your response , having understand your obligations to avoid in the first place .


As for shock , just the other day I was driving *to a karate grading of all things* , on the road I saw a small black shape , obviously had been struck by a car , there was a distraught women kneeling and crying over it , another trying to lift her/console her , it was graphic , you could see intestines ..... I thought it was a child , It turned out to be a dog , for that split second of uncertainty It took me a few hours to calm down ... i recognised all the surge of the dump , I could of quite easily gone and thrown up , but could of quite easily ripped someones head off , both options were there . As it was I talked it out with freinds , had some serious caffeine (probably not the smart move ;) ) , and got on with things , all the while slightly shaking .

My point being even if it works for you the dump will leave you a mess , The mistaken Fighter that thought he had blinded a friend is a prime example , It`s an example of shock , exactly what you probably go into at some stage if you confront violence , even if you win .

bit of a ramble , and yes slighty of topic , but i beleive it`s all realted , yes i`m no expert , yes Ill look into and learn more from the experts , but real life is a great teacher . Even the average Joe can learn a lot of human nature and physiology from plain ole experience .

And I`m always happy for the experts to rip away my assumptions and help me along the way :wink:

As for the pointy things I beleive there very valid , i just dont think there strikes , thats my only contention with them , and bare in mind thats from a shotokan perspective and I`m not judging Uechi at all . To many places sell them as strikes .... Im still not buying , gouging lower impact strikes yup possible , full force brutal power ... not for me , but that might just be my frail bones that dont like em .

Heh I kind think it`d be cool to be a cyber warrior

uphold peace justice and the Amer ..... ahhh

elephant hunting isnt my style these days ;)

tounge In cheek an all meant in good fun , Happy New year all , your all so far behind us down here In New Zealand
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Post by RACastanet »

Bill quoted from Grossman's book:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An obvious method of killing an opponent involves a crushing blow to the throat. In movie combat we often see one individual grab another by the throat and attempt to choke him. And Hollywood heroes give the enemy good old punch in the jaw. In both instances a blow to the throat (with the hand held in various prescribes shapes) would be a vastly superior form of disabling or killing the foe, yet it is not a natural act; it is a repellant one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this technique is in the 'playbook':

"With your right hand, execute a hammer fist strike
to the opponent's exposed throat."

Practicing this is risky but sometimes we wear a kevlar flak jacket and direct the blow to the chest to simulate the application. Even with the flak jacket on this can shock the system in a spirited exchange.

Bill mentioned 'pointy thingys:

"2) Whether or not "Uechi pointy things" are valid self defense (not sparring, not full contact sport fighting) techniques."

The nastiest pointy thingy I have experienced (short of a thumb to the eye) is the tip of the elbow. A very simple escape from the guard is covered in the 'playbook' as well:

'With your elbows, strike the opponent's legs at the femoral nerve on the inside of the thigh to drive and separate his legs.'

This may not work well against an experienced groundfighter but the first time I got an experienced groundfighter in the guard he nailed my femoral nerve with his elbow I just about wet my pants it hurt so much. I was walking gingerly for a few days after that.

As for another effective use of the thumb:

'firmly grasp the subject's pectoral muscle/brachial
plexus tie-in with your thumb in his armpit.'

Definitely an ouchie!

For further info on the use of pointy thingies and target areas just check in with your local USMC recruiter and you can get paid to train for a short commitment of four years! :wink:

Rich
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Post by IJ »

Yeah, it's be pretty hard to yank out an eye using your fingers. They're rooted with some muscles that you'd have to tear, and there's a rather sturdy optic nerve to tear as well. You'd have to get your finger behind the globe of the eye to get leverage, and there isn't a lot of extra room in the socket to get even one finger around the eye. Popping an eye is really tough because of the fibrous outer layer. This would be a major task even if you had a compliant victim who wasn't moving his head around to evade your fingers and trying to beat you with all of his strength. Afterall, this would hurt like heck and it's a pretty aversive stimulus to have your eyes attacked or even threatened. Maybe if you had a whole 15 minutes to play around with it.

As for sticking a finger into someone's brain, there isn't a hole in your skull to allow this. I made a clay skull in art in elementary or middle school that had such holes because its a popular conception--the 12th grade update however was based on real human skulls from our anatomy class and reveals that there's actually a depression with some fissures big enough for the appropriate nerves to fit through. You'd have to jab a finger through solid bone to pull this off. The bones at the back of the eye are stronger than those of the nose, and while noses are fairly easy to break, you can't stick a finger through someone's nose. Just to the right of the K in the picture below, there's a very fragile layer of bone called the lamina papyracea which DOES break without any effort, but its not that stretegically useful.

Just skin is tough stuff--if you can't get a finger into someone's arm or chest, why could you in their eye?

http://www.geocities.com/Elizabeth_Baue ... front.html

What's more you'd slice your finger up on the bone shards and get brain in them, and then you get mad cow. If anyone ever lets you pull all of that off, they're already dead or unconscious anyway. So finger into the brain is a myth. It takes a long finger, too.

Use your keys or a pen, it's easier.

As for one's ability to do this, well, it's often overstated, no news there. I would with all my college students in class get one of the women (because this was part of a rape prevention drill) to volunteer and have her hit me. Almost all would "hit" near me. Eventually they might hit, me, after a few tries harder--maybe hurt a wrist (at least a third). Then with the knowledge that this wasn't hurting my stomach they'd sock me a good one, and I'd ask for another, and when it was coming, I'd scream at them. Not one in 10 classes hit me. Most turned away and covered their faces. A lot couldn't kiai in public when we tried that drill, or just yelped.

I've never had my life in danger, but I was rushed by a handful of people apparently trying to beat me up. Right before I split, I was enraged, and ready to charge and level them. I *hope* that's a sign I'd dole out whatever I had to if forced. I certainly don't want to end up fighting face to face trading cruelties. Reminds me of the Jewish soldier stabbed to death in Saving Private Ryan who ends up begging no while the Nazi whispers, "shhhh." Wouldn't it be swell if the world's leaders didn't put people in such situations? Maybe they'll make a New Year's resolution.
--Ian
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Post by Ron Klein »

Bill:

I think I mentioned this earlier. Grossman's tape "On Killing" is available through Calibre Press (and probably other sources). I believe it to be worth listening to and recommend reading the book and reflecting in a serious manner on its many messages.

Have you ever looked at the WWII text "Kill or Get Killed"-interesting read, though not as graphic as Grossman.

On the matter of books-I also think that Gavin DeBecker's book "The Gift of Fear" is also one that is a must read for anyone who has to deal with violence. DeBecker's seminars and essays cut to the heart of many issues. I particularly like his concise assessment of how modern views of fear and threats are shapped by the popular press. The latter, to me, seems to fit into your general theme of debate and commentary without facts or insight.

http://www.gdbinc.com/

The assessment provided on Van's forum in the thread "Your Gun," dealing with liability is quite interesting and valuable. It gets to the issue of debate and agrument without a knowledge base....

Anyway--

Have a great New Year! And Thanks.....

Ron
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Post by RA Miller »

Thank you, Bill, for speaking from your heart and always keeping your eyes and mind open.

Ian- Once, when I was very young I read a novel about a gladiator who had been frozen in ice. The book seemed pretty well researched and in one scene, the gladiator explained the near impossibility of decapitation. He described in great detail the neck muscles, the bone structure that makes hitting between vertebrae nearly impossible, how the different layers and textures of skin, muscle tendon and bone combined to be tougher than any individually...he finished by saying that in all of his years in the Arena he had seen only one gladiator who had the power to decapitate. It was excellently reasoned (much more than the John Carter of Mars books) and I bought it.

Twenty-odd years later when it came time to butcher some livestock, I chose to use a sword. My wife and the owner of the animals wrote fantasy and science fiction- for them it might be valuable detail. I'd studied the sword for years without cutting flesh.

I used my best grip, stance and struck with full kime... and the sword passed through the neck of a full-grown goat with no feeling of resistance at all. When I examined the wound it had sheared through the vertebra. We butchered two more goats. It required no force.

Later, just with the weight of the blade went through 18 inches of spine lengthwise (to finish halving the goat when it got too wobbly for the saw) again, with no feeling of resistance.

Anyway, read Grossman for yourself. And always be prepared that reason may not mesh with experience.

FWIW, Rory
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Post by RACastanet »

I had been meaning to read this book someday and Bill's thread got me motivated to go out and get it. There is quite a bit of info in the book and I have a ways to go, but must make a comment to those who also read it...

This book was researched and written in the early and mid 1990s, a time when violent crime in this country was climbing and peaking. Please be aware that since that time period violent crime has been on a steady decline everywhere in the U.S. Some hotspots still exist but the violent crime rate has dropped in each of the last ten years and in some areas is down a third to a half of what it was in 1992.

Grossman's insight is valid and I appreciate it, but all is not doom and gloom. Changing demographics (we are getting older), revised attitudes towards crime and punishment (longer sentances, fewer or no paroles in some states, more prisons, more shall issue CCW states) and generally better economic situations have combined to not only slow the growth of violent crime but reverse the pattern.

Read the book but keep in mind the era in which it was written.

Rich
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Rich wote...
Grossman's insight is valid and I appreciate it, but all is not doom and gloom.
Read on. The book only makes a few cursory references to violent crime. Most of the book is about warfare and the act of taking a life. As it turns out,

* few have the natural capacity to do so,

* most can eventually be trained to do so, although the art of that was not fully developed (in our culture) until some time between Korea and Viet Nam,

* of those that can be trained to take a life, most will eventually suffer a psychological reaction given enough sustained combat or the right conditions, and

* there are special circumstances that make taking a life easier, and when you read about it, you will see this has much to do with the way the modern U.S. military operates.

Read on! There are layers and layers of complexity to this.

Oh and one more thing... A thorough understanding of this material will go a long way to appreciating the validity of threats around you. It'll make you realize why some should stay in prison, and others are full of poopy when talking about their lethal martial prowess (irrespective of technical skills).

That's a pretty anemic skinny, but should get you on track.

- Bill
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Post by Ron Klein »

Rich and Bill:

I am familiar with the topics and issues you are discussing.

Rich makes an interesting point regarding rapidly changing demographics and also perceptions of violent crime. The issue of perception is important to threat assessment at both personal and general levels. This is probably more clear in Grossman's tape and book on the "Bullet Proof Mind." I believe that the heightened awareness he stresses regarding violent crime and the potential for violent encounters should be balanced somewhat. Read Gavin DeBecker's "Gift of Fear" in this regard. (In addition, there is a difference between community based law enforcement versus "paramilitary" approaches based on interpretations, perceptions and realities of controlling violence. an aside)

Bills comments also strike a cord. The issues Grossman discusses are inherent in a vast historical literature. What appears to be different is Grossman’s systematic, "scientific" and graphic analysis. I find "The Book of Five Rings" terrifying now that I understand more about martial arts and the effectiveness of bladed weapons (. Comparing Mushashi’s presentation to Grossman's is like comparing the movie "Sergeant York" to the opening scenes of "Saving Private Ryan."

Last these issues are multilayered, as Bill has outlined. Look at the training tapes, "Surviving Edged Weapons" or "Ultimate Survivors" as well as Grossman's materials. These materials make our lives and values more precious and the vast amount of drivel taught in commercialized martial arts more apparent. When you seek that ole’ sanchin unity of mind, body and spirit----it would be a good idea to do so with an appreciation of reality and knowledge. The materials cited in this thread are a good start.

Bill, thanks for starting this thread.


Ron
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Post by RACastanet »

Thanks for the input Ron. You picked up what I was thinking about. I was in no way intending to detract from Grossman's work.

Just for grins, while at Quantico today, I checked the Marine Corps Martial Arts Center of Excellence library, and sure enough Grossman's book was there. It is also on the recommended reading list for the Martial Arts Program.

Regards, Rich
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Post by Dana Sheets »

On a side note - my understanding of knocking an eye out of the socket has to do with fluid dynamics. You put enough pressure on the eye (say with a hard shot of a shoken) and in order to maintain it's very strong existance - it squeezes out of the socket. so the eye isn't disconnected from the body - it's just out of the socket.

So the question is - under pressure will the eye rupture or will it just take the path of least resistance and pop out of the socket?

Given: it's dang difficult to shoken somebody in the eye.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Dana

I would have to say that "it depends." If you hit right dead center in the middle, then rupture is the only option. If you hit off to the side, then I would think the eyeball would want to come out of the socket - in one piece or not. Pretty straight forward.

I would, however, like to point out (Oops...another bad pun) that I don't think the shoken is the ideal weapon for the eyes.

First...the smartest weapon is the flicking fingers. This works only to distract the opponent so that a subsequent action (fight of flight) can immediately follow. It also can be done without doing permanent harm to the eye. And...it can be done without touching the eye! How??? The technique could be done literally, or figuratively. On the latter front, the action could "throw" anything from dirt to a shirt to hot coffee in someone's eyes/face.

Then there are the hirakens. When you read the names of sanseiryu techniques in Alan Dollar's book, you see the double hiraken techniques labeled as eye strikes. Actually the hiraken is custom fit to slide right into the eye socket - even if you miss a little. A double hiraken doubles your chances of an effective strike. And the technique can serve as simultaneous block/attack - the spirit of Uechi fighting.

And then there is the technique that Grossman is suggesting - gouging with the thumb tip and pulling out again. In his book, Grossman discusses how one can "practice" this motion. Makes sense when you read about it. In any case, this action gives new light on what the boshiken to the face MIGHT be. (BTW, boshi*ken = thumb*fist). Thus in one interpretation, the way you hold the hand is the finishing position of Grossman's discussed attack, and the traditional kami training gives your thumb the strength to (quite literally) "pull it off."

I view the shoken as an option, but probably the last one in my book. If you like your shoken, fine.

FWIW

- Bill
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Hi Bill,

FWIW it was Sensei Jim Thompson's presentation. I'm more of a raking/flicking across the eyes myself to get the flinch response.

The Patrick McCarthy guy in Indiana had an interesting statement. He said that when you grab someone's groin in a fight their instant reaction is to grab your hand/wrist. He used it as a possible setup for escape from a rear bear hug.

I'd love to have a list of "most likely" physiological responses to agressive moves. A. Flick their eyes they flinch. B. Grab their groin they grab your hand. C. Grab their throat they grab your hand, etc.

Dana
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

The Patrick McCarthy guy in Indiana had an interesting statement. He said that when you grab someone's groin in a fight their instant reaction is to grab your hand/wrist.
You know, Dana, I've always thought that the low strike and circle interpretation they do in the Uechi Seisan bunkai was absolutely pathetic. Yes, the groin strike is fine. But that move afterwards... What a crock!

More and more, I've been creating some of our own Seisan bunkai moves that I believe are a little more "combat ready" than some of what's put in the "official" bunkai. One of them is this low strike and circle combination. Now if you think of that low strike as a groin strike, well the average guy is going to:

1) schooch his butt back and head forward to avoid someone messing with his package, or

2) will get hit and then double over in pain.

In either case, the subsequent circle makes a great shot to the back of the neck (if you position yourself right), which totally takes the person out. Block after a strike? B.S. It's time to finish someone off.

But... If you now think of this as a grab of the package rather than a strike, well yes indeed you'd expect a guy to grab that thing grabing his thing, so to speak. This would be a good thing if the guy initially had both hands on your neck or something. Then you could use the circle to get control of that hand grabbing onto your wrist. Makes sense to me! Great grappling sequence.

- Bill
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